Author Topic: Awareness!  (Read 5798 times)

porcupine

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Awareness!
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2010, 06:58:55 AM »
I always thought enlightenment was when you realize that which you most desire, you are...
well when that happens, and I guess also before..
enlightenment is what happens when you

n light n
   ment

you have two squats, (abandoned buildings taken up to be lived in again) on two sides of a light.. then you have a kid who wants to learn how to spell mint, and you say, sound it out!
and they say M-E-N-T

enlightenment
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 07:38:47 AM by porcupine »

Kirtanman

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Awareness!
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2010, 10:38:28 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

Unless you have made this distinction between crystal clear purity and mind, you are not enlightened.

Adyashanti included.



Right. I agree that enlightenment is about dropping the illusions of separate self and concept, and experiencing that the actual experiencer is always pure awareness (what you're calling "crystal clear purity", what I often call original awareness), beyond any forms in (so-called) mind; simply: beyond any forms.

Terminology varies; just because someone uses slightly different terminology than you do, doesn't mean they're not enlightened, nor does it mean they're not articulating enlightenment clearly (because many are both enlightened, and articulating enlightenment clearly, whether or not the words "crystal clear purity" have ever crossed their lips, or their keyboard).

I get what you're saying though, and fundamentally agree (just not the part about Adyashanti).

Kashmir Shaivism has a similar model to Dzogchen, as I understand it, and both, in turn are similar to other "three tier" non-dual systems, including my own (Living Unbound).

The most expansive state (which can be called "crystal clear purity", among other things) is original awareness, and is completely non-dual.

The middle state is combined dual and non-dual, and is the realm of mind. Both the subtle forms of mind, and formless mind are here, and so this state is mixed, dual and non-dual.

The lowest state is the physical realm, combined with the grossest forms of mind (surface thoughts, definitions, etc.), and is fully dual.

And so, yes, certain spiritual systems "top out" at the upper end of that second level, and could be said to "not have made the distinction between crystal clear purity and mind".

Anyone actually enlightened, and any means which can actually contribute to the experiencing of abiding non-dual awareness, aka enlightenment, does understand this distinction, although, very important:

Both "understanding" and "distinction" are forms in the exact mind you're disparaging, here, and they have nothing to do with enlightenment. Nothing.

Neither understanding nor distinction have anything at all to do with enlightenment.

Enlightenment is the liberation resulting from the continual experiencing that everything arises from, occurs within and subsides back into, the crystal clear purity, aka non dual awareness, we actually are, now.

Wholeheartedly,

Kirtanman

[:)]








alwayson2

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Awareness!
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2010, 10:57:47 AM »
I disagree purity can be called awareness.  Awareness implies the mind is involved.  

I agree terminology can vary, but I have not seen anything even remotely resembling the crucial distinction of purity from mind, except maybe the quote in the other thread by N.M.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 12:44:11 PM by alwayson2 »

Kirtanman

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Awareness!
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2010, 01:08:01 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

I disagree purity can be called awareness.  Awareness implies the mind is involved.  

I agree terminology can vary, but I have not seen anything even remotely resembling the crucial distinction of purity from mind, except maybe the quote in the other thread by N.M.



Hi Alwayson,

Awareness is primary.

"Only a naked manifest awareness is present.

(This awareness) is empty and immaculately pure, not being created by anything whatsoever.

It is authentic and unadulterated without any duality of clarity and emptiness.
 
It does not exist as a single entity because it is present and clear in terms of being many.

This inherent self-awareness does not derive from anything outside itself.

This is the real introduction to the actual condition of things.

Within this (intrinsic awareness) the Trikaya are inseparable and fully present as one.

Since it is empty and not created anywhere whatsoever, it is the Dharmakaya.

Since its luminous clarity represents the inherent transparent radiance of emptiness, it is the Sambhogakaya.

Since its arising is nowhere obstructed or interrupted, it is the Nirmanakaya.

These three (the Trikaya) being complete and fully present as one, are its very essence."


Padmasambhava

Source: Yoga Spandakarika: The Sacred Texts at the Origin of Tantra by Daniel Odier.

When I use the term "awareness", I am using it the exact same way Padmasambhava uses it, in the quote, above.

Padmasambhava, who brought non-duality to Tibet from Oddiyana (a neighboring Indian kingdom, to Kashmir) in the 8th Century, and who said of himself:

"My father is the intrinsic awareness, My mother is the ultimate sphere of reality. I belong to the caste of non-duality of the sphere of awareness."

I'm guessing you're familiar with the Trikaya, described above, yes?

"These three (the Trikaya) being complete and fully present as one, are its very essence."

You may not be familiar with the name of Abhinavagupta's school of Shaivism; it's short-form name is Trika.

It's formal name is Anuttaratrikakula.

"The Ultimate {One} Embodied in the Three."

Here at the forum, I've referred to the "three in one in all" model of awareness-consciousness-experiencing.

This (the source of the Trika of Shaivism; the source of the Trikaya of Buddhism), is what I'm referring to when I say "awareness" (both as the source, and all facets of awareness-consciousness-experiencing vibrating {Spandakaraya) within it).

It seems this is also what you're referring to, when you say "crystal clear purity beyond mind."

Except for the bit of clarification of terms occurring right now, I'd say we agree on this; we've simply been using different terms for it.

Identification with the forms of mind is unenlightenment.

Knowing our true nature as the formless, unbound awareness (what you're calling crystal clear purity) is enlightenment, in any accurate-map non-dual system, including those found in Buddhism, Shaivism and elsewhere.

Wholeheartedly,

Kirtanman

[:)]

alwayson2

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Awareness!
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2010, 02:49:22 PM »
I don't consider english translations as citable material.

Etherfish

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Awareness!
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2010, 03:44:58 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

I don't consider english translations as citable material.


Dude, your kinda in the wrong place then . . .I'm just saying.
This is a worldwide center for english understanding of yoga.

alwayson2

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Awareness!
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2010, 10:26:19 PM »
Ok atleast if I had the original Tibetan word used for "awareness"

I don't know Tibetan, but almost everyone following this material knows certain key words that pop up over and over again.

Ananda

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Awareness!
« Reply #67 on: December 27, 2011, 08:07:50 PM »
Francis Lucille on Awareness and De Mello[:)]

"We know a bit of what the sage experiences... 'no-self' is not entirely
foreign to us..... we experience it when we are working on something we
enjoy and there is an alertness and presence to the situation but no
thought of self..... and no sense of time.....or when we are with
friends, in timeless, selfless, friendliness with no thought of
self....just totality in unselfconscious joy... we don't even know we are
experiencing joy....we are joy...... And we know there have been these
moments.

For many of us our journey toward no-self is through attention to
awareness, consciousness, presence...whatever term we use for it.  THAT,
in which objects, thoughts, feelings, the body and the world,
appears...... Awareness, that which is most 'I'.... an awareness that
would be so clearly there even if we lost our memory.... we would still
know, we are...... if we lost all memory, all sight, all hearing, all
sense of touch, all senses, we would still know, so clearly, that we
are.... Am-ness, awareness Itself.....

Most of us have discovered that going to this awareness is not an
effort..... not if we have tasted it even once..... and  there is a
stirring each time presence reminds us of itself....awareness watching
awareness..... consciousness aware of itself....and there is a delight,
an ease, an at home ness there..... there is something inside us that
recognizes that we are on the right track..... this sacred awareness,
welcoming, without judgement, all that arises....is the way home.....

It is a process of unlearning.... of becoming less, not more..... Eckhart
Tolle put it like this....This is not a human development conference but
a human diminishment conference. It is about reducing self and increasing
awareness. It is seeing our reactions to things, resulting from beliefs
we are attached to, relationship were attached to, theories we are
attached to..... and just seeing them for what they are.... mere
appearances....that none of them is the truth..... just thoughts
appearing and disappearing.... arising and disappearing into something
that is of a totally different realm.

And when we take our stand as awareness, there is this freedom.....there
is a sense of being in the presence of Beauty.... with no effort
required..... because there is nothing to achieve..... it is more like
the effort of a starving person makes to eat his food, or a mountain
climber makes climbing his favorite mountain or going to one's
beloved..... a lot of energy expanded...perhaps, even hardship but it is
fun, ......effortless activity......

Anthony De Mello expressed it so beautiful in his last book, The Way to
Love...Tony was Indian and Jesuit..... a lovely combination..... He
speaks of what will happen if we turn our attenton to awareness.

"Will awareness bring you the holiness you so desire? Yes and no. The
fact is you will never know. For true holiness, the type that is not
achieved through techniques and efforts and repression, true holiness is
completely unselfconscious. You wouldn't have the slightest awareness of
its existence in you. Besides you will not care, for even the ambition to
be holy will have dropped as you live moment to moment a life made full
and happy and transparent through awareness. It is enough for you to be
watchful and awake. For in this state your eyes will see the Savior [the
Source]. Nothing else, but absolutely nothing else. Not security, not
love, not belonging, not beauty, not power, not holiness---nothing else
will matter any more."

It all happens by grace, and by grace, the witness too, will
disappear......for there is only the Beloved.... She is All That Is....."