karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 12:07:41 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
Karl,
Are you saying that I am a fool when it comes to arguing? Because I agree with you. One of Ryokan's poems goes like this:
Last year: a fool.
This year: no change.
It is true for me.
As I said, I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am not arguing with you. When it comes to spiritual life, what is the point of replacing a set of intellectual beliefs with another set of intellectual beliefs? None.
Do I say that abiding inner silence is "this absence of sound, of thought, of energy?" Or you say so? You are practicing meditation for so long - you must know what I am talking about. Are you doing samyama? Because in samyama, you MOVE SILENCE. If you practice samyama, you know what I am talking about. If you don't, you may want to try it.
In spiritual life, there is "knowing" - having the information, and based on it one can have beliefs and arguments. And there is what I call "knowing without knowing" assimilated experience. Knowledge without the experience is incomprehensible. Without the assimilated experience, knowledge is food for the mind, that is, the mind uses this knowledge to strengthen the ego. The more one argues, the stronger the ego gets.
Why do you argue? Why such a cognitive complexity for something so simple? Maybe because you know that there is something else, something beyond the mind? Something infinite more powerful than the mind? Something that when arises will put the mind on the side-line?
Greetings to that infinite in you, my fellow traveler.
Did I say you were a fool ? No I didn't, neither did I infer it. I said if you begin an argument from the perspective that logic has no place, then you effectively disqualify yourself from the argument.
I'm not trying to win points in a discussion like a lawyer, I'm only interested in finding the truth of things. Sticking with reality, what is valid, proven and truth. Unless that is accomplished there is no point in any discussion and if you go knocking yourself out of the quest before we start by saying logic and reason are unnecessary, then we are left with pure intuition and emotion. They have never proven themselves accurate at very much at all.
You are making assumptions when you say 'I must know' or 'it's obvious'. I'm asking if you would be so kind as to define in concrete terms what you are saying. If you tell me you believe a square circle exists, or a moving stillness, then you need to define it, because it appears to me that these things are entirely in opposition and conflict.
This is not about what I can feel, imagine, create the scenery of, the story of. Those things I have already said are beyond investigation or proving. They are scenery, no more no less unless proof can be provided of their existence. If it cannot, then we can say they are not real, they conflict with reality.
You say there is a 'knowing' what you are really saying is that you just 'feel' it. Something just seems true. Yet you have not investigated if it is true. You are so certain that it is that you don't question it. Essentially this is the point of Self Inquiry. As I said, I don't think it's particularly a good method, but is effective. It is the refusal to test the limits of this 'knowing' that shows the false self remains in place.
You think in terms of simplicity but have made a cage out of a web of untested illusions, scenery and complex emotional twisting. simplicity has no 'knowing without knowing' or 'moving silence' or ' culmative experience' instead it is plain truth through rational logical questioning. Eventually a self generated fallacy can be spotted before it gets going. It is precisely what Yogani said would happened with the witness, except there is no need for this separatie witness anymore. It was an attachment. It vanishes when the false ego vanishes.
You talk as if the mind were separate to you. You are one. There is only the self. There is nothing more than the self, that's all there is. It is not a question of there being something more powerful or different. You already are as you are. You are the self there is nothing more. It sounds weird for me to say it, because I thought it was weird when SRM said it. It seemed to have some amazing cosmic significance at the time, some outer worldly power, but I see that it is not what he meant at all. He was specific, you are you, there is nothing else, you are the self.
Find the self. Dig for it. You will find everything else is false. I cannot stress it much more. If you want to call it preaching then fine, let it be that, calls it Karls false ego, Karl's delusion. Whatever you like. You are here as a seeker of truth. You have not asked me to lecture you, preach to you, but all the same we are here now and communicating. It would be crass of me to say 'follow this, follow that, this is the right way', I can only ask you to prove your own beliefs in the cold light of reasoning. If we cannot even get to that neutral ground, I can see I'm never going to be much good at this and I will do little more than cause friction.
I don't even know if it should matter, or does matter if you know these things or not, I don't know why it should. It feels like I'm shouting at a peach and saying 'ripen' over and over ike some demented lunatic , the peach will ripen in its own time, my shouting at it seems wasted effort, yet I'm compelled, driven to continue. Maybe then I still have some way to go, I expect so. 'A lot to learn has this one' ' strong with the force but careless with it and too eager. Enthusiastic but clumsy'
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1486 Posts
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 12:57:32 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi everyone
Wonderful to hear about your reaching this milestone Charliedog.
The discussion here reminds me of something I heard once: "Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know". A little pessimistic perhaps, but this thread illustrates what happens when those who know (had the experience) talk to those who have not had the experience (yet). I guess that is the reason why Yogani focuses so much on describing the techniques, without much detail about where the techniques take us.
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on Jul 03 2015 12:58:48 PM
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 2:32:48 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
It
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
Hi everyone
Wonderful to hear about your reaching this milestone Charliedog.
The discussion here reminds me of something I heard once: "Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know". A little pessimistic perhaps, but this thread illustrates what happens when those who know (had the experience) talk to those who have not had the experience (yet). I guess that is the reason why Yogani focuses so much on describing the techniques, without much detail about where the techniques take us.
Yet we haven't determined which is which yet BR. There is really nothing to know in that sense. There is no experience, there is a casting out of experience and knowing until there is only that which is and was always.
I agree that is why Yogani spends more time in that direction. Yet he also dwells on the results even to the point of the short novel based on AYP techniques. We are all here on this forum trying to do something, it's a melting pot, so why should it be a problem if we discuss these things, it's why we are here.
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1486 Posts
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 2:42:27 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
It's not a problem Karl, just more productive to do our practices IMHO.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 3:11:18 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
It's not a problem Karl, just more productive to do our practices IMHO.
Isn't that the principle behind that organised Yoga group. SRF or some such thing ? Where they must not discuss aspects of progress ?
This forum is proof of the need to discuss results. Surely that's part and parcel of it ?
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Charliedog
1551 Posts
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 3:18:20 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Charliedog's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Blue,
I missed you , nice to see you back
Love to you all
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BillinL.A.
USA
375 Posts
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 6:13:18 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Super great to have you back Blue!
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Blanche
USA
555 Posts
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 8:13:54 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Blanche's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by BillinL.A.
Blanche a millions thanks for going to the trouble of expressing your silence here.
Bill, the silence reverberates all the way to L.A.
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Blanche
USA
555 Posts
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 8:17:27 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Blanche's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
What can I say, Karl? I find this reply hysterically funny. Thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Did I say you were a fool ? No I didn't, neither did I infer it. I said if you begin an argument from the perspective that logic has no place, then you effectively disqualify yourself from the argument.
I'm not trying to win points in a discussion like a lawyer, I'm only interested in finding the truth of things. Sticking with reality, what is valid, proven and truth. Unless that is accomplished there is no point in any discussion and if you go knocking yourself out of the quest before we start by saying logic and reason are unnecessary, then we are left with pure intuition and emotion. They have never proven themselves accurate at very much at all.
You are making assumptions when you say 'I must know' or 'it's obvious'. I'm asking if you would be so kind as to define in concrete terms what you are saying. If you tell me you believe a square circle exists, or a moving stillness, then you need to define it, because it appears to me that these things are entirely in opposition and conflict.
This is not about what I can feel, imagine, create the scenery of, the story of. Those things I have already said are beyond investigation or proving. They are scenery, no more no less unless proof can be provided of their existence. If it cannot, then we can say they are not real, they conflict with reality.
You say there is a 'knowing' what you are really saying is that you just 'feel' it. Something just seems true. Yet you have not investigated if it is true. You are so certain that it is that you don't question it. Essentially this is the point of Self Inquiry. As I said, I don't think it's particularly a good method, but is effective. It is the refusal to test the limits of this 'knowing' that shows the false self remains in place.
You think in terms of simplicity but have made a cage out of a web of untested illusions, scenery and complex emotional twisting. simplicity has no 'knowing without knowing' or 'moving silence' or ' culmative experience' instead it is plain truth through rational logical questioning. Eventually a self generated fallacy can be spotted before it gets going. It is precisely what Yogani said would happened with the witness, except there is no need for this separatie witness anymore. It was an attachment. It vanishes when the false ego vanishes.
You talk as if the mind were separate to you. You are one. There is only the self. There is nothing more than the self, that's all there is. It is not a question of there being something more powerful or different. You already are as you are. You are the self there is nothing more. It sounds weird for me to say it, because I thought it was weird when SRM said it. It seemed to have some amazing cosmic significance at the time, some outer worldly power, but I see that it is not what he meant at all. He was specific, you are you, there is nothing else, you are the self.
Find the self. Dig for it. You will find everything else is false. I cannot stress it much more. If you want to call it preaching then fine, let it be that, calls it Karls false ego, Karl's delusion. Whatever you like. You are here as a seeker of truth. You have not asked me to lecture you, preach to you, but all the same we are here now and communicating. It would be crass of me to say 'follow this, follow that, this is the right way', I can only ask you to prove your own beliefs in the cold light of reasoning. If we cannot even get to that neutral ground, I can see I'm never going to be much good at this and I will do little more than cause friction.
I don't even know if it should matter, or does matter if you know these things or not, I don't know why it should. It feels like I'm shouting at a peach and saying 'ripen' over and over ike some demented lunatic , the peach will ripen in its own time, my shouting at it seems wasted effort, yet I'm compelled, driven to continue. Maybe then I still have some way to go, I expect so. 'A lot to learn has this one' ' strong with the force but careless with it and too eager. Enthusiastic but clumsy'
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Blanche
USA
555 Posts
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 8:40:48 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Blanche's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
Hi everyone
Wonderful to hear about your reaching this milestone Charliedog.
The discussion here reminds me of something I heard once: "Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know". A little pessimistic perhaps, but this thread illustrates what happens when those who know (had the experience) talk to those who have not had the experience (yet). I guess that is the reason why Yogani focuses so much on describing the techniques, without much detail about where the techniques take us.
Dear Blue Raincoat,
Welcome back! The world has more color with you here.
You are right - there is nothing to talk about, and more to do in yoga practice.
If I were the witness to this argument in private, I would have listened quietly. But there are many people reading here, in the forum, and once I read the thread I had to say something. Keeping quiet would have meant that I agreed with the position of pure logical reasoning as the path to enlightenment. The answers are beyond reasoning. I hope nobody believes me, but maybe someone reading this decides to read the lessons and follow the practice. The practice will bring the answers.
Without the line in the middle,
the space is free
to drench us in unbounding love.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 11:05:39 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
A good example of stillness in action is a hummingbird. The hummingbird beats its wings incredibly fast, yet the core of its body is remarkably still so that it can hover before a flower and drink the nectar easily. It's essentially two opposites existing simultaneously in one organism.
Logic and rationality are in favor of this phenomenon, as are emotion and intuition.
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Charliedog
1551 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 02:54:20 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Charliedog's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Blanche[/i
Without the line in the middle,
the space is free
to drench us in unbounding love.
Amen
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 04:09:21 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
A good example of stillness in action is a hummingbird. The hummingbird beats its wings incredibly fast, yet the core of its body is remarkably still so that it can hover before a flower and drink the nectar easily. It's essentially two opposites existing simultaneously in one organism.
Logic and rationality are in favor of this phenomenon, as are emotion and intuition.
They are not. There is no separation. The wings of the hummingbird do not exist apart from the entity of the bird. The body is in constant motion, the chest muscles are driving the wings, heart beats, brain sends signals, lungs breath, tail moves, stomach digests, blood pumps.
No opposites exist at the same time in the same place.
It is as if you are saying a square circle exists but decline to provide the evidence.
You are trying to argue the point which I respect , unlike Blanche who appears to have wandered off into the fallacy of 'appeal to laughter'.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 04:22:17 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
J
quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
What can I say, Karl? I find this reply hysterically funny. Thank you.
You are welcome.
However you seem to have somewhat lost the thread of the argument and fallen into the fallacy of 'appeal to laughter'. You do, of course have the audience of like minded thinkers to cheer you on, but that doesn't mean anything to me. You wished to 'take me on' I believe was the phrase. You have failed to provide evidence to support your argument and laughter-no matter how beneficial or enjoyable-has no value in this context. Unless you have anything further to add, then it seems we are not to advance this discussion further.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 04:30:26 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Blanche
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
Hi everyone
Wonderful to hear about your reaching this milestone Charliedog.
The discussion here reminds me of something I heard once: "Those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know". A little pessimistic perhaps, but this thread illustrates what happens when those who know (had the experience) talk to those who have not had the experience (yet). I guess that is the reason why Yogani focuses so much on describing the techniques, without much detail about where the techniques take us.
Dear Blue Raincoat,
Welcome back! The world has more color with you here.
You are right - there is nothing to talk about, and more to do in yoga practice.
If I were the witness to this argument in private, I would have listened quietly. But there are many people reading here, in the forum, and once I read the thread I had to say something. Keeping quiet would have meant that I agreed with the position of pure logical reasoning as the path to enlightenment. The answers are beyond reasoning. I hope nobody believes me, but maybe someone reading this decides to read the lessons and follow the practice. The practice will bring the answers.
Without the line in the middle,
the space is free
to drench us in unbounding love.
The answers are not beyond reasoning , but first you must apply reasoning instead of emotional intuition.
There is no doubt that the practices are/were necessary, but they have to bring you to something. As my old drum teacher used to say ' you can practice all you like Karl, I can show you a million complex fills, rhythmic tricks and styles and you can bench on them for years, but in the end it is about getting out there with a band and performing for an audience otherwise it is wasted effort, you may as well learn to balance the drum on your head as play it" .
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 04:34:17 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Charliedog
Hi Blue,
I missed you , nice to see you back
Love to you all
Any chance we can have the group hugs somewhere else ?
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 04:34:50 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Well, I guess nothing of the material world is truly still, but even so, the material world is a reflection of stillness, so the only way we can come to the deepest reality of stillness is by learning from the surface-level illusion of material things. With the hummingbird, there is certainly an appearance of stillness, and that counts on the reality-discernment meter.
I was jamming tonight in a friend's garage, and we were singing harmonies together, and a beautiful girl was dancing to my beats. All this vibrant activity was happening, and yet I felt as if I was doing nothing. It just kind of flowed effortlessly, even during the improvisation. We also laughed a lot.
Is that stillness in action? How can I prove it to be true other than by subjectively describing the paradoxical sensations rolling across my perception?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that is an experience of subject-object union.
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Jul 04 2015 04:38:25 AM
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Charliedog
1551 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 04:39:04 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Charliedog's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that is an experience of subject-object union.
Amen?
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 05:09:12 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I
quote:
Originally posted by Bodhi Tree
Well, I guess nothing of the material world is truly still, but even so, the material world is a reflection of stillness, so the only way we can come to the deepest reality of stillness is by learning from the surface-level illusion of material things. With the hummingbird, there is certainly an appearance of stillness, and that counts on the reality-discernment meter.
I was jamming tonight in a friend's garage, and we were singing harmonies together, and a beautiful girl was dancing to my beats. All this vibrant activity was happening, and yet I felt as if I was doing nothing. It just kind of flowed effortlessly, even during the improvisation. We also laughed a lot.
Is that stillness in action? How can I prove it to be true other than by subjectively describing the paradoxical sensations rolling across my perception?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that is an experience of subject-object union.
You already have the answers but refuse to acknowledge them. You are asking your own questions but are refusing to try to answer them.
If it's subjective then what is it ? If you answer subjectively then who is providing the answer ?
'reflection of stillness' it's very pretty, your words are pretty, but you are not your words.
There is no 'surface level illusion of material things'. There are realities, concretes, existent things and there are non concrete self generated , internal emotions and scenery.
We mix them up, we cannot see the wood for the trees, reality from falsity and it creates a schism, seperation, suffering. There is real objective separation and emotional subjective separation. One gets implied on the other. The emotion gets transferred to the instrument you are playing, the girl dancing, the sounds. It is a distraction. Objective and subjective then flow together when they ought not to.
Yet you know this, I do not need to tell you, it is surely why you wish to end the addiction to drugs. You see how it mushed everything together into chow, like baby food it's easy to eat, there is no chewing.
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1486 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 06:24:24 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I love you guys.
Karl, there is a hug for you too. Not compulsory of course; you can have it if you want to.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 07:20:34 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
I love you guys.
Karl, there is a hug for you too. Not compulsory of course; you can have it if you want to.
LOL everyone except the heretic
No, I don't need one, but I politely thank you anyway. I would prefer to discuss the subject under consideration.
Edited by - karl on Jul 04 2015 07:28:36 AM
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
671 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 07:50:01 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
then conches and kettle drums ,tabors and trumpets and cow horns suddenly blared forth ;and the sound was stupendous.
whereupon madhava and pandava ,seated in thier magnificent yoked to white horses ,also blew thier celestial conchs.
hrishikesea ,the devadatta;and vrikodara ,the doer of fearful deeds ,blew his great conch,the paundra.
king yudhishthira ,the son of kunti ,blew his conch,the anantavijaya;and nakula and sahadeva blew the sughosha and the manipushpaka.
the great archer ,the kingof kasi;the great warrior sikhandi,dhristadyyumna and viirata;the unconquered satyaki;
drupada ,and the sons of draupadi ,and the mighty son of subhadra ,oh lord of the earth ,each blew his own conch.
and that tumult ,resounding through heaven and earth rent the the hearts of dhritarashtras followers.
the ultimate self enquiry begins love to you all
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 08:03:17 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
There is only self inquiry, there isn't a different version called 'ultimate'.
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
671 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 08:07:40 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
i knew you would be waiting
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1486 Posts
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 08:29:34 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by karl
LOL everyone except the heretic
I meant exactly the opposite - pointed out you were one of "you guys" in my previous post, despite the fact that you don't warm up to hugs. I'm fine with that too.
