Author Topic: Why I don't believe in meditation  (Read 6742 times)

natalie

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2009, 04:46:20 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by karl

quote:
Originally posted by natalie

i do agree meditation is the biggest load of hog wash that was ever created, i have read books and books and have tried it, dont tell me to keep trying it will come i have done everything.  I did believe in it till i tried it.  it is total crap and as far as i am concerned it is a money making racket.......I am more than convinced that these "people" that claim what they have experienced,  be it past life, physic etc.......it is all dreams that they believe are real.....they cannot seperate fantasy from reality........
 
You people must seriously wake up it is such a joke.  You like "meditation" zombies....I do now find it so hestrical......

But then again i actually feel very sorry for you guys as you are obviously searching for something in your life.  So you believe in your dreams..

It is a pity because their are many people out there that actually believe i should know as i was one of them.  Thank goodness i woke up.[|)]




What are you doing here Natalie ? [:D]
We all knew you would end up posting on here eventually, we have worked so hard for this day and finally it happened.[:)]




[?]

Shanti

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2009, 11:40:35 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by natalie

wow, i see by my comments on meditation , and my experience  i have upset a number of people.........that was not intended.


Strange, but I really don't see anyone upset with your post. [:)]

Did you actually read all the replies?

They were just trying to give you answers to your random comments.

Maybe you were expecting everyone would get upset with your post? [:)]

themysticseeker

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2009, 01:50:50 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by natalie

i do agree meditation is the biggest load of hog wash that was ever created, i have read books and books and have tried it, dont tell me to keep trying it will come i have done everything.  I did believe in it till i tried it.  it is total crap and as far as i am concerned it is a money making racket.......I am more than convinced that these "people" that claim what they have experienced,  be it past life, physic etc.......it is all dreams that they believe are real.....they cannot seperate fantasy from reality........
 
You people must seriously wake up it is such a joke.  You like "meditation" zombies....I do now find it so hestrical......

But then again i actually feel very sorry for you guys as you are obviously searching for something in your life.  So you believe in your dreams..

It is a pity because their are many people out there that actually believe i should know as i was one of them.  Thank goodness i woke up.[|)]




Ha! Ha! HA! This is the funniest thing I've ever read! Because if it's not funny, it's sad. Really sad. There's so much anger in the world, riots in Tibet, the land of peace. It is the time of depression and anger, I'm afraid...

Dear, meditation is not a money making scam. I don't know what's upsetting you. Perhaps you haven't met a good spiritual friend. I learned meditation from my grandfather, who learned it from his father, and so on. Over the years, I've met many yogis and monks. No one has EVER asked me for money. The info on this site is free for your use.

I come to this site to provide the little help that I can, and I've been helped tremendously by other wise people posting intelligent responses to my many misconceptions. This is a great blessing.

Actually, meditation is about waking up from the dream of your negative emotions that afflict your mind, thoughts and actions. It is not about mystical woo woo, and flying into another dimension. It is merely about peace and happiness.

Based on your response, you are not awake. Your anger exposes your ignorance. Rest assured that there are methods in this world and great teachers who, if you are lucky enough to meet them and attend them, you can find the means to escape from the cycle of your sufferings.

Don't be so sure you have read the correct books or met the right teachings. It's clear to me that you have not. Be careful about denigrating the practices of good seekers. Karma is real. You are creating very negative circumstances for yourself.

Love,

TMS

themysticseeker

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2009, 01:56:49 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Natalie is right.  Meditation doesn't work.  I don't think she is a troll.  it is too easy to call people trolls when you don't agree with them.

Meditation is basically just falling asleep and coming to again.  All the so called spiritual experiences that people have i have concluded are nothing more than self hypnosis.  and hypnosis doesn't work on everyone.

And saying that meditation has helped you to be less stressed in stressful situations is more like a self fulfilling prophecy based on affirmations and actually calming yourself in stressful situations.  It is not the product of meditation.

Meditation is nothing but a substitute for sleep.  So if you want some peace, take a nap instead.  Then come back to the real world.



Not for me. When I meditate, I get a jolt of energy. The jolt can be so strong that I need to take a break for a few days or have a beer. My trouble is balancing active kundalini shakti with having a normal life where I interact in the political world. Try to get your head around that. If all you are doing is falling asleep, then you certainly are not meditating. You have to tighten up; sit in lotus position with anjali mudra. Keep your eyes open. Maintain in the moment body awareness.

The real world you speak of, your thoughts, is not the real world I wake up to in meditation. Trust that. Don't let yourself get lost in samsara...

Love,

TMS

themysticseeker

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2009, 01:59:51 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Yes, it really doesn't matter how much you believe or Feel that meditation has made you better.  That is just self hypnosis.  I am not interested in self hypnosis.  I am interested in reality.



No your not. Your interested in your thoughts, your habits, what's comfortable and familiar. This is your karma. You are in samsara mind, doubting, frustrated, jumping to conclusions, closed mind. I wish you more...

Love,

TMS

gumpi

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2009, 03:21:39 AM »
Yes, actually i am.  Who isn't interested in their own thoughts?  You are a clear example of someone that is.  What you call samsara, i call life with cause and effect minus metaphysical speculation based on theories with no evidence to back them up, including so called past life experiences.

There is a reason why doubt exists.  it helps you to discriminate properly and not get sucked into bogus speculative theories about life.  So if you are pooh poohing doubt perhaps you should think again.

Yes i am frustrated at having wasted the last 8 years meditating when i could have been getting on with my life like other normal people.  You say meditation is about peace and happiness but i don't see that anywhere in any persons that meditate.  If anything they seem like emotionally blunt selfish people with huge egos.  

I was not closed minded.  I did the techniques and they failed.  Now i am more open minded than before.

I don't jump to conclusions about meditation.  I have been there, done that, worn the t-shirt and it failed to come up with the goods.  That is why i say that anyone that thinks they are getting anything out of meditation is engaging their mind in self hypnosis.  Brains are highly complex things and most people suffer from gullibility and lack of critical thinking, which opens them up to powerful suggestions, especially when combined with dream like states.  

I don't fall asleep during meditation usually but i have in the past.  The ability to not fall asleep is an easy process of awareness.  But it doesn't produce what people claim it does - some kind of thought free state.  It is a state of alpha brainwaves combined with beta brainwaves and no different to day dreaming.  Experiences like OBEs and precognition can occur in the deeper theta/alpha states with accompanying hypnagogic phenomena.  So if you want spiritual experiences you need to relax so deeply your brainwaves are in theta and this sometimes means you can fall into a temporary sleep of unconsciousness and come to again.  But not everyone has spiritual experiences in theta or hypnagogic phenomena, which proves that the brain is producing these states and differs from individual to individual.  Hence the likilyhood that most of those experiences are self induced through self hypnosis and not caused by anything else.

Ananda

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2009, 03:39:11 AM »
yet you keep on escaping from my questions dear gumpi, guess that proves smthg don't you think[;)]

CarsonZi

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2009, 03:45:31 AM »
Hi gumpi...
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Yes i am frustrated at having wasted the last 8 years meditating when i could have been getting on with my life like other normal people.

If this is truly how you feel then why are you here on the AYP forums at all?  Why aren't you "getting on with your life" right NOW and why are you wasting MORE time talking here?  You aren't going to convince anyone here that their practices aren't worthwhile, so if you REALLY think that they accomplish nothing for you, then why don't you MOVE ON already?  Sorry if this seems harsh, but I find you saying that none of us are peaceful or happy and we are all just emotionally blunt selfish people, pretty harsh.  And I don't believe that you actually feel this way anyways.....if you did you wouldn't be here talking about it.  I see your post as simple trolling.

Love,
Carson[^]


Ananda

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2009, 04:32:53 AM »
hi nathalie, and don't worry no one got upset from your post but on the other hand sadly gumpi's post did and will upset a lot of people.

david_obsidian

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2009, 05:00:00 AM »
Natalie,

Welcome to the forum.

I understand.

And yet my own experience is the polar opposite of yours. Let me explain what I think is going on, and I'm going to give you an explanation that that doesn't put the blame on you, because it doesn't belong there.

Some people do wonderfully with meditation.  I was one of those.  Carson is one of those, and there are others here. I don't think we're deluding ourselves that is is working for us; any more than you are deluding yourself that it isn't working for you.  Both of these perspectives are real and make sense.

I remember the early days after I started meditating -- the great enthusiasm I had.  As I saw it, everyone just had to try it...  This was going to save the world....!  And I did get some people to try it.  And it didn't do much for them.  They thought maybe I was a fool,  deluding myself, getting onto a bandwagon, and I in turn thought, hey, maybe they were doing it wrong or maybe they didn't give it enough time or...

How could this be happening?  I think it is bio-individuality, simply: brains are different.  Some people dance well, others not so well.  Some play music well,  others not, etc.   Some people dance well on the first day, for others it takes years.  Some people,  truth be told, can never learn to dance or play music well. Genes proably play a huge role, and all sorts of factors.

Let me assure you, and you too, my friend Gumpi, that,  when it is working, the effects of meditation are absolutely real.  Science is discovering some of them,  proving some of them objectively, but the science is coarse so far.  In time, more will be clear.  Perhaps we will be able to see and understand exactly what is happening for someone while the meditate...  how 'far' they are going, etc.

But I think we will find that it actually isn't working for everyone.  Then there is the question of whether they tried long enough.  I have no idea of how we can know whether a person hasn't tried long enough, or it just isn't going to work for them.

You have made an effort and it doesn't seem to 'work'.  And people say you should expect nothing. Well, I don't think that's entirely fair to you, my friend.  Why should you expect nothing?  It is supposed to be productive,  isn't it?  Would you be standing out for an hour on one foot every day for no reason,  no yield, no product at all?  No, it's supposed to be productive. ( There is a catch because a 'greed' for productivity can inhibit a relaxation that can be good for the process... but that's just a catch, an irony, a 'paradox of instruction';  it's still supposed to be productive.)

There are systems in place to prevent early discouragement.  Some of them are to tell you that it is going to work anyway eventually. Are we sure that they will work eventually for any given individual? I'm not...  Do we have evidence for that?  Honestly, do we?

Natalie,  for all your frustration, I am sorry.  Don't blame yourself or the world of meditation. Don't take any burden on yourself about this.  You tried it.  I don't know how long you tried it, and whether you should try it further.  I can't know.  It's up to you whether you think you should try it further.  However if you tell us how long you tried, people might give you perspective.  For some people, they had to try a while before they got some payoff.

Hatha Yoga, by the way, does a lot of good for most people.

Enjoy AYP,

-D

« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 06:59:31 AM by david_obsidian »

gumpi

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2009, 05:12:43 AM »
Ananda,

I can honestly say that i have given meditation a decent shot and it has done nothing but give me feelings of relaxation.  Now, just because it delivers relaxation and that is worthwhile, it doesn't mean it produces all the so called "spiritual" experiences.  Hence i will say it again: spiritual experiences are self hypnosis.

You say you get "siddhis" sometimes.  Why only sometimes?  And what are these siddhis you get?  If you have siddhis can you prove them?  

If your "waves of bliss" aren't self hypnosis, what do you put them down to?  god?  And where is the evidence of God?  It is lacking i'm afraid.

By all means continue to hypnotise yourself if it makes you feel good.  Who wouldn't want that?

Enlightenment does not exist.  Point to one, just one, enlightened person and i will change my mind perhaps.  So no i will search for the truth, not "enlightenment".

The scientific support of meditation is actually not very much at the moment and it seems to change a lot as well.  The "relaxation response" is something very basic that can be gotten from tension relaxation of the bodily muscles, simple breathing exercises, and sleep states.  Mainstream psychology includes these techniques for helping people with stress and anxiety, panic disorders.  On the other hand, yoga seems to be about taking these basic procedures further, into self hypnotic practices involving imaginary parts of subtle anatomy called "chakras" and "kundalini", some ill-defined 4th state of consciousness called turiya, which is equated with something called the "superconscious" state, objective-subjective perceptions of light and sound and so on.  All these things really have no basis in actual psychology and usually end up being studied by independent researchers with an interest in them and hence become alternative psychology.  

Studies of brainwaves with regard to meditative states are flimsy and open ended, based more on subjective accounts than objective reality.  Since every person's brain is different it stands to reason that any subjective experience a person will have in a sleep like state (alpha and theta brainwaves) will vary markedly from one person to the next and that most if not all of the experiences associated with those brain waves are actually produced through some type of self hypnosis or suggestion of an experience prior to meditation.  The nature of hypnosis is unknown at the present time and it does produce effects that are objective but to say that these effects can be reproduced by everybody is not true.  Likewise, even though everybody has beta, alpha, theta, and delta brain waves all the time with some fluctuations of predominate brainwave frequencies, it doesn't mean the subjective experiences associated with those frequencies will be reproducable or the same for every person.  

Most of the experiences people on this forum report sound like classical cases of hypnosis.  People even say that they levitate!  What is more likely - that people can break the laws of physics without even knowing how they do it, or that a person's state of concsiousness is giving them the impression that they are actually levitating?  I take the latter viewpoint, since there is absolutely ZERO verifiable objective evidence of human levitation.

Likewise, reports of experiencing kundalini and chakra energies in the body fall into the same category of hypnotic suggestion.  You see, the thing about hypnosis is that to the hypnotized person something unreal can become very real.  But to the un-hypnotized person put through the exact same procedures there is nothing there.

I don't come here to intentionally upset people.  But sometimes people need a kick in the backside and to wake up to reality, and if i am the person around here that has that job i will gladly take it.  

Notice that i posted about lowering the resting pulse.  I got one reply that contained very little information.  The idea behind that post was to find out if meditation and yoga can actually produce an effect of slowing the heart rate lower than its baseline resting rate.  It appears to be the case that either nobody knows or if they do know they can't answer.  I wonder why.  It would be valuable information for every person on the planet to know it is possible to reduce metabolism through meditation and yoga practice.  Instead there are anecdotal, parapsychological accounts of yoga masters being able to accomplish things like suspended animation!  Where is the truth in all this bull?  If these things exist i want to know for real if they exist.  I haven't made up my mind because people claim these things are real and i have yet to see any evidence of them.  That is why it is frustrating coming to forums like these where people claim to know these things are real without providing evidence for them or explaining how they can happen.

CarsonZi

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2009, 05:24:28 AM »
Gumpi....

Who are you trying to convice that meditation is self-hypnosis?  Us or you?  Good luck convincing all of us who actually DO experience significant changes in daily life due to meditation that this is all merely self-hypnosis.  If it was, I would have been clean from drugs many many years ago and not just this October after starting AYP in July.  The effects from meditation on my drug withdrawals was NOT self-hypnosis.  If it was I should become a hypnotherapist!  I'd make millions!

And in regards to your "Where is the evidence of God" statement....

YOU are the evidence of God.  If there was no God you wouldn't be here![;)]

Love,
Carson[^]

themysticseeker

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2009, 05:28:43 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Yes, actually i am.  Who isn't interested in their own thoughts?  You are a clear example of someone that is.  What you call samsara, i call life with cause and effect minus metaphysical speculation based on theories with no evidence to back them up, including so called past life experiences.

There is a reason why doubt exists.  it helps you to discriminate properly and not get sucked into bogus speculative theories about life.  So if you are pooh poohing doubt perhaps you should think again.

Yes i am frustrated at having wasted the last 8 years meditating when i could have been getting on with my life like other normal people.  You say meditation is about peace and happiness but i don't see that anywhere in any persons that meditate.  If anything they seem like emotionally blunt selfish people with huge egos.  

I was not closed minded.  I did the techniques and they failed.  Now i am more open minded than before.

I don't jump to conclusions about meditation.  I have been there, done that, worn the t-shirt and it failed to come up with the goods.  That is why i say that anyone that thinks they are getting anything out of meditation is engaging their mind in self hypnosis.  Brains are highly complex things and most people suffer from gullibility and lack of critical thinking, which opens them up to powerful suggestions, especially when combined with dream like states.  

I don't fall asleep during meditation usually but i have in the past.  The ability to not fall asleep is an easy process of awareness.  But it doesn't produce what people claim it does - some kind of thought free state.  It is a state of alpha brainwaves combined with beta brainwaves and no different to day dreaming.  Experiences like OBEs and precognition can occur in the deeper theta/alpha states with accompanying hypnagogic phenomena.  So if you want spiritual experiences you need to relax so deeply your brainwaves are in theta and this sometimes means you can fall into a temporary sleep of unconsciousness and come to again.  But not everyone has spiritual experiences in theta or hypnagogic phenomena, which proves that the brain is producing these states and differs from individual to individual.  Hence the likilyhood that most of those experiences are self induced through self hypnosis and not caused by anything else.



Well hey, Gumpi, at you least you did your best, right? You have nothing to feel guilty about. You know what's right, and now you are confident. It feels good to come on AYP and tell us all we're deluding ourselves.

I will continue meditation, as I have for 30 years. I will continue to help others who are interested in meditation; this is what my guru Drubpon Rinpoche asked me to do.

BTW, My meditation is about not thinking about I or mine, it or that, and freeing my senses from burdensome thoughts, like judgments and doubts.

Gumpi, the most important thing is that you be happy. My feeling is that you are not happy. You want to believe you have found a truth, but deep down you continue seeking, why you are here.

If I came across harsh or unfeeling, I apologize. May you find peace.

Love,

TMS

themysticseeker

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2009, 05:36:20 AM »
Gumpi, You know relaxation is the path. You are relaxing into the natural state of your mind, which is not attached to past or future and is not attached to thoughts, worries or doubts. When your mind is in its natural state, your innate wisdom can express itself. Your innate wisdom is the awakening; the cloud of thoughts are like a dream, like sleeping.

You may have expected too much. Don't focus on expectations. That's what helps me tremendously.

Love,

TMS

Ananda

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Why I don't believe in meditation
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2009, 06:05:51 AM »
dear gumpi, first of all that's a good try in escaping by opening other windows but still you haven't answered my main questions about your life style...

and even if it's all self hypnosis and playing on brain wave paterns still it's all good and as karl said it's all self hypnosis i kind of enquired on what he said and most of the things we do in our normal day actually are smthg like that.

by the way the satisfaction which you get from eating or having sex or breathing oxygen after holding your breath is all self hypnosis if we follow up the pattern which you are suggesting.

but what i am experiencing is simply put far beyond hypnosis, hell i even see my mind at work our true self is far beyond the body it's not just a state of mind it's a state of being a state of pure joy a state of total satisfaction and i am very sad that you do not see that and i hope there was an easy way i could share it but as yogani puts it i can offer you all the right tools but i cannot give you a purified nervous system that you'll have to do yourself.

about them minor siddhis i do experience they tend to be along the lines of telepathy plus seeing a lot of futuristic stuff which are related to my own personal life  but that stuff does not happen within my control they just do happen so nope i can't prove them but jesus used to[:)]  and us human beings living and breathing and the way which we are manufactured is a miracle by itself the biggest siddhi you may say thus proving the existence of something which is higher than us (God, truth, tao, moksha …)

concerning waves of bliss they are a mixture of rising ecstacy which is due to natural vajroli (the transformation of sexual energies into ecstatic ones when they do go upwards) plus inner silence.

ecstacy + inner silence = waves of bliss and outpouring divine love which i really feel for you.

et me amigo it seems that you rather be right than enlightened and i am sorry you feel that way.

i wish you good luck on your chosen path and i'll pray for you my brother.

kindest regards,

Ananda