psysaucer
India
44 Posts
Posted - Jul 07 2015 : 1:00:39 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Topic Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Message Delete Topic
I have been meditating and doing yoga since I was 7. It was for me never a means to transcendence or spiritual realization or even a means to mental well being. I did the practice because so did most of my family.
I have also had my fair share of drug induced ecstasies and I find them far more mind expanding than any meditation I have practiced for 16 odd years.
I don't say this with any kind of contempt for the practices- but simply that there was no intent behind my practices. I did them merely as physical exercises at best and at worst as a bunch of things I need to do to avoid getting banished from my orthodox Hindu family.
Yet I have continued the practices long after I became financially independent, mostly because of habit. You can't just stop doing something you've done for almost two decades and not feel funny.
My question here though, is what if meditative states are brought about by a subconscious desire to leave the body or experience silence or whatever and your mind at such a deeper, meditative, non-conceptual level just makes you delude yourself into adding meaning into the purely syntactical chemical changes that occur(as is the case with most drug induced experiences)
Dogboy
USA
1614 Posts
Posted - Jul 07 2015 : 4:59:27 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
My question here though, is what if meditative states are brought about by a subconscious desire to leave the body or experience silence or whatever and your mind at such a deeper, meditative, non-conceptual level just makes you delude yourself into adding meaning into the purely syntactical chemical changes that occur(as is the case with most drug induced experiences)
Hello Psysaucer, welcome!
So you ask what if we are deluded by subconscious desires and layering meanings onto experiences. Does delusion really matter all said and done? I am coming up on my second anniversary of AYP DM practice, and unlike you, this is all still fresh and exciting. The first year it was all finding comfort in inner silence and experiencing nascent witness states. This past year, with the arousal of kundalini, every day is a learning experience. In the beginning of that stage I was questioning "What is this energy? What am I to do with it?" When I took those questions into the silence, over time I began living the answers to these questions. Each time I sit now, each time I allow breathlessness, there is a tangible blending of energy and silence; there seems an intelligence within, a paradoxical separation and immersion taking place. Am I deluded? I only have experience layering on experience. I am unable and unwilling to know the true answer to that question, if there is one at all.
Drugs may get you there but can't keep you there, for your vessel, your neurobiology, is not prepared to achieve that. Change that comes from dedication, desire, trust, and surrender over the long haul, through layered experience and ongoing purification trumps the fleeting experience of ingesting enlightenment, in my humble opinion.
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kumar ul islam
United Kingdom
679 Posts
Posted - Jul 07 2015 : 5:24:02 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Now they were the words I was looking for thankyou dog boy
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Jul 07 2015 : 7:42:24 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Dogboy! Strong.
We don't "get" enlightenment; we give it away. The Goddess compels us to move until every fiber of our being is singing with estatic bliss. Meditation alone is not sufficient, but combined with a full-scope routine (including living fully and serving the collective through our unique talents and abilities), the wave of enlightenment can be ridden.
Chemicals are only secondary ingredients in the recipe. Sure, they're part of it, but the essence of Spirit is surely beyond them.
Believe me, I've had some psychedelic and peak experiences, and there is a price to pay. Ultimately, we have to do it naturally, without artificial boosts.
Best of luck. The miracles are all around.
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1157 Posts
Posted - Jul 08 2015 : 03:47:28 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Dear psysaucer,
For a lot of us, first came the experiences (sometimes totally out of the blue) then we went seeking for answers and found them on this site. So, it was not within our consciousness or desire at all.
Sey
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Ecdyonurus
Switzerland
479 Posts
Posted - Jul 08 2015 : 04:23:53 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Psysaucer, you have been doing yoga since childhood. I began at age 44. So our experiences cannot be the same. In my case, I can clearly tell that yoga had a huge impact on my life, because I can easily compare my life today and my life before yoga. In your case, maybe it's harder for you to see what yoga brought to you because you cannot compare.
Just to make an example: I bought my first smartphone at age 40, and connecting to the web on that device is still kind of a miracle every day for me (especially connecting to the AYP community ). For my little boy, smartphones are not a miracle at all - he just cannot compare to the old times where you had to go to the railway station to ask for train departure times; and of course he cannot even imagine that a world without Youtube existed before his birth. So I would say that for him it will be hard to tell what a difference smartphones really make.
Edited by - Ecdyonurus on Jul 08 2015 05:47:00 AM
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delta33
Canada
100 Posts
Posted - Jul 08 2015 : 9:02:28 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit delta33's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by psysaucer
I have been meditating and doing yoga since I was 7. It was for me never a means to transcendence or spiritual realization or even a means to mental well being. I did the practice because so did most of my family.
what a rich heritage!
quote:
Originally posted by psysaucer
I have also had my fair share of drug induced ecstasies and I find them far more mind expanding than any meditation I have practiced for 16 odd years.
well some drugs can punch a hole through the ice
let you see the other side
and when you come back
you're haunted
by those holes you punched through the ice
vs
meditation
slower
gentler
balanced
warm melting
of all the ice
evenly
both methods have their merits
quote:
Originally posted by psysaucer
I don't say this with any kind of contempt for the practices- but simply that there was no intent behind my practices. I did them merely as physical exercises at best and at worst as a bunch of things I need to do to avoid getting banished from my orthodox Hindu family.
there is no contempt
there is no intent
this is why they are named
intent and contempt
but you're a man now
let your family expectations float
meditate
you'll find their best expression there
quote:
Originally posted by psysaucer
Yet I have continued the practices long after I became financially independent, mostly because of habit. You can't just stop doing something you've done for almost two decades and not feel funny.
good habits are powerful
bless your rich heritage
quote:
Originally posted by psysaucer
...what if meditative states are brought about by a subconscious desire to leave the body or experience silence or whatever and your mind at such a deeper, meditative, non-conceptual level just makes you delude yourself into adding meaning into the purely syntactical chemical changes that occur(as is the case with most drug induced experiences)
in bold throughout
are the tracks of your mind
your emotions
what good is meditation?
the ability to notice
to let go
to view dispassionately
then act appropriately
to feel and not feel
to be that all the time
and not just when a hole is punched through the ice
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psysaucer
India
44 Posts
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 10:24:04 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Thanks for all the replies!
The common consensus here seems to be that meditation offers a more stable and sustainable approach to hold on to the blissful, 'enlightening' states than drugs. Which maybe true, as I have heard enough people tell me this throughout my life to believe it is true.
But my grouse here is a rather personal one. I probably shouldn't have generalized it.
What I practiced growing up was somewhat of a cross between the theosphical maitreya school of meditation and the orthodox southindian shaivite mantric tradition. For those who are familiar with those, I know it would seem an unseemly combination, but my family had two conflicting(according to me) sets of beliefs and practices inherited, the brahmanical and the theosophical, and it was quite a neurotic thing for me to get entangled in lol...but anyway as I said, I have heard about the benefits of meditation enough number of times and it is cruelly depressing that despite having practiced it for several years, I don't seem to see anything extraordinary happening to me.
I gave up doing the brahmanical mantras like when I was 13 or so. I've stopped doing most of what used to constitute my meditation practices too. What I've been doing for the last 2 years is just basic pranayama followed by what we call the 'Shoonya' meditation. I've continued doing it because it gets me into a really relaxing state and seemingly just stalls my thought process completely...atleast that's as best as I can put it....
But I have had no visions, no "kundalini", no flow of energy, no nothing. I believe I am as swayed by emotions, feelings, anger, etc as everyone else.
Infact none of this bothered me until my teens, before I began reading up on what I was practicing and what I was supposed to be experiencing. I mean the whole philospohy behind these practices, the universe as one, the selfless atman, the kundalini rising and so on and so forth came as much as wonderful and alien and new ideas as it would have to any westerner with no previous exposure to these philosphies.
I would love to believe that due to years of practicing this stuff, I have somehow internalized all the experiences everyone is talking about to the point where I can't even tell how it is like to not be without them, as Ecdyonurus suggested. But as much as I want to entertain the very flattering thought, it is just not true. I mean, the only thing about me that I can honestly attribute to years of doing these practices is maybe the fact that I can hold sh*ttons of alcohol way more than most people could hehe...but even that is not a good thing is it? people getting drunk and frickin annoying after a few pitchers of beer and me sitting there as sober as I possibly can lol
Edited by - psysaucer on Jul 09 2015 11:08:34 AM
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 11:09:17 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Drugs may get you there but can't keep you there, for your vessel, your neurobiology, is not prepared to achieve that. Change that comes from dedication, desire, trust, and surrender over the long haul, through layered experience and ongoing purification trumps the fleeting experience of ingesting enlightenment,
Dogboy very well said and quotable simple to the point and also happens to be the answer to the question.
To add to this you may use drugs to get there but just how functional are you while there?
Drugs can get you there, but you will not only not be functioning correctly due to forcing your way where you have yet to grow but you will also be unable to remain.
By spiritual practices you will first initiate a chemical change and you will be deluded also the same as drugs but not as severe not as unpredictable and not as temporary.
Over time though as you adapt to repeated visits the delusion will pass and the state will become your new normal if self pacing is done this need not be dramatic.
The point of your new normal however is always a goal line that is ever in front of you and moving. If it is not then you have either arrived permanently and are what would be considered enlightened in which case the answers to the questions will already be known or have reached a plateau from which to adjust to before moving on.
So like a drug if you oh lets say start with multiple crown-centric practices prematurely for example you will get high beyond your ability to function and not be able retain the heights so this is like a drug that is too strong.
Also like a drug that is too strong there will be hangover symptoms as you get back to what is a stable place for you. In AYP we do what is called self pacing to prevent the unwanted and promote the ongoing growth in a gentle effective manner.
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 11:44:04 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
You're a fine writer, psysaucer. Have you ever written creatively? Poetry, fiction, prose, journalism? What you have written here already is creative, but it might stimulate you further to let go more and see what comes forth. Creative writing has been pretty essential for my development, so that's why I mention it.
I think we first need to find the spectacular quality of what is immediately in front of us, and within us, before we graduate to the more rarefied air.
I sense really good bhakti in you, as well as a keen eye for discernment. If you keep following the deepest desires of your heart, you will not fail, and you will probably be much more satisfied than what the esoteric philosophers write about. On that note, if you want to switch gears and read a very grounded but ecstatic poet, I highly recommend Walt Whitman, who had a brilliant way of "keeping it real" and describing the wonders of the body. There is much fullness and wholeness in his poetry, including the grit and grime of our lower nature.
Enlightenment is a journey from here to here. The mountaintop is not as far away as we imagine. It is very simple and subtle...this mystery. You're closer than you think.
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Beehive
USA
116 Posts
Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 2:46:33 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
"I mean the whole philospohy behind these practices, the universe as one, the selfless atman, the kundalini rising and so on and so forth came as much as wonderful and alien and new ideas as it would have to any westerner with no previous exposure to these philosphies".
Psysaucer... Thank you so much for writing about this. It is fascinating to me and Bodhi Tree is right - you are a very good writer. The parts that interest me the most are the role of intent. It sounds like your meditation training had family obligation, your own inner guru's feeling that the practices your were doing were an "unseemly combination, as well as just the fitness aspects that are so common in the west. All that going on in your mind really affects intent. But the really exciting part to me is that as you have read about the potential in mediation it strikes you as "wonderful". Its that little flutter of "wonder" that opened all the doors for me.I hope it does for you too. And, I'm guessing that as you follow the wonder you will indeed find your early years of learning a great benefit. Thanks again for telling your story.
Edited by - Beehive on Jul 09 2015 2:48:58 PM
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psysaucer
India
44 Posts
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 12:45:16 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Thanks Bodhi Tree and Beehive. I don't mean to bore you guys by bragging about it, but because you brought it up, almost every privileged and fairly well educated South Indian family has a way of striking a balance between their western education and their traditional heritage...the result being nothing short of disgusting.
You know, I grew up reading the fine books and speaking the language of the old colonialists(as did my parents and their parents), being able to speak, read and write English better than my own language...yet most educated brahmins are foolish enough to believe that just because of their lineage, they are the true practitioners and upholders of India's cultural heritage lol
Anyway I find it interesting, Bodhi Tree, that you say creative writing has been important for your development. I used to be into all sorts of cultural stuff: poetry, literature, music and all that until I had my revelatory experiences delivered through the use of various substances. It showed me how arbitrary certain cultural and social codes can be and how inane the aesthetic canons are, that I never bothered to let myself be marvelled by the cosmic beauty of Joyce's prose or the great musical abstractions of Bach or whatever anymore. I guess I got subconsciously convinced that the interior of my mind is infinitely complex to even begin to try to express or articulate it in any way. Now that I think about it, I probably would have wound up a liberal arts student had I not started smoking pot in high school. I am now more into science, specifically bio-chemistry, which is my passion and profession....
Edited by - psysaucer on Jul 10 2015 01:20:20 AM
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 01:38:59 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
One of my younger brothers is a chemical engineer major at our local university, and I know how rigorous the discipline is. There is much complexity in that field of study. He and I get in lengthy discussions, and at times, it is difficult for him to understand how pure bliss consciousness could be the foundation of reality. He desperately wants to identify a material object as the source. I understand his tendency, and sympathize.
When I was in high school, I scoffed at certain writers who I didn't like. Kind of in a bratty, elitist way. Little did I know that I would greatly benefit from those writers years later. Certain ones have stuck, and there is always room for new literature in my heart-mind. I celebrate Walt Whitman often.
My enemies have turned into my teachers. My disdain has become my enlightenment. The grace of transformation touches us all, if we let it.
Anyway, when all the pretenses get dropped, and there is a kind of nakedness, that is when I have found the most truth. I'm still shedding layers and purifying my subconscious, so the journey is long, but I've seen enough to stick with the baseline of AYP, and to do it without any more psychedelics or intoxicants.
Wishing you the best, and to each his/her own!
Edited by - Bodhi Tree on Jul 10 2015 01:41:04 AM
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psysaucer
India
44 Posts
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 01:49:51 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I'm not sure I have sufficient understanding to believe bliss consciousness is the basis of existence, but I certainly don't subscribe to the view that reality is purely material in nature.
But yes, I can't say I have experienced the kind of intensity with meditation as with, say, two tabs of pure acid. As you said, to each his own I guess
Edited by - psysaucer on Jul 10 2015 03:38:42 AM
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 03:51:36 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
It does not require understanding so much as active surrender. Hence, it has been called a peace which passes all understanding.
Can we retain a childlike sense of wonder and awe, even as our knowledge trees grow and flourish in spacetime?
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psysaucer
India
44 Posts
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 05:17:31 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Theoretically, intellectually, what you are saying makes complete sense. The perennial philosophy that pervades the entire canon of buddhist/hindu/christian mystical thought is a marvelous thing indeed.
But unfortunately, not everyone is quite capable of making that leap of surrender and put into practice what they believe to be true. And I certainly don't think I am capable of that I am way too cynical for that
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 05:19:19 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by psysaucer
I'm not sure I have sufficient understanding to believe bliss consciousness is the basis of existence, but I certainly don't subscribe to the view that reality is purely material in nature.
But yes, I can't say I have experienced the kind of intensity with meditation as with, say, two tabs of pure acid. As you said, to each his own I guess
Meditation is good practice for meditation. what must be done shall be done. Are you not saying 'I wish to know what I do not know and get to a better place'. There is no value in meditation other than that. The will to, the desire to and the action of. You must rehearse it until things are plainly known for what they are.
Reality isn't only material. 'I am hungry, cold, hot' is also reality. That you tell me that you are hot, cold or hungry is also reality. A logical argument is not concrete but is reality. We can directly perceive reality or have conceptual reality.
Consciousness is not the basis of existence. Adding a quality such as 'bliss' does not make consciousness any different, because consciousness is just what it is. To give it qualities is poetic allusion and this is what we should avoid. A flower is not a 'beautiful' flower even though we might label it that way. The beautiful label is our gilding of it. There is no inherent beauty in a flower. If we love reality in an undiluted sense, then we see both our labelling 'beautiful' and the flower as reality and now there is no conflict. All is as it should be. When we confuse our labelling as reality itself 'beautiful flower' then there is the beginnings of suffering, for what if the flower is poisonous and it's touch causes pain, or death ?
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Bodhi Tree
2972 Posts
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 07:24:30 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Bodhi Tree's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Here is the perfect lesson for you:
Lesson 182 - Q&A ? Healthy skepticism
http://www.aypsite.com/182.htmlFrom that lesson...
"The best yogis and yoginis are both believers and skeptics. They believe there is a destination, and they will accept nothing but the most effective means for traveling there. They leave cults and dogmas behind, after they have harvested the seeds of truth from them. And they are constantly on fire to carry on the journey."
quote:
Originally posted by psysaucer
But unfortunately, not everyone is quite capable of making that leap of surrender and put into practice what they believe to be true. And I certainly don't think I am capable of that I am way too cynical for that
Everyone is indeed capable, because we are born that way. No one is inherently denied the foundation of capability. The real question is: do we have the willingness to act upon our dream? When we are willing, we will thoroughly examine the case through action until we are satisfied--using our natural capabilities for divine love along the way.
The fact that you're posting in the forum is already evidence of self-inquiry, as well as your innate drive for truth, so you are ironically challenging your own claim of incapability, which is beautiful.
I have a buddy who said to me the other day: "I am still identified with the body/mind." I laughed and said: "Actually, consider the "I" in that sentence. You must already have a sense of the "I" being the witness/awareness to even speak that sentence, because in doing so, you have perceived body/mind to be objects of perception upon your native home of silence!"
See?! The beautiful dance of this divine play.
