A Criticism of Sexual Spirituality

[Scott]

Naz,

quote:Before giving more information on the Gunas, I’d like to ask if maybe someone has some personal, deeply felt through and understood on the level of experience knowledge to share with us about the Gunas?

Yes I have personally, deeply felt these different kinds of vibrations.  I don't call them energies because people tend to think of energies as things you feel in your body, or something.  Yes, you can observe how these energies make your body act, kinda, but it's not like if you go looking for these qualities in yourself you're going to easily find them.

In truth, the more we talk about these things, the more misleading it'll be to a beginner.  The best advice to give is: to practice with an open mind, and see for yourself after you get some experience, if the teachings in various traditions seem correct or not.  Words are very misleading when it comes to personal experience.

That being said...rajas is a fiesty kind of vibe, I'd say.  Angry, quick, bitter, etc.  Tamas is a slow and dull one.  Depressed, slow moving, procrastinating and lazy.  Sattva isn't a mix of the two, but it's in between the two.  It's purity.  Serene, honest, successful, etc.

Everything has aspects of the gunas.  If you look at a random picture (lets say, a mountain), it will manifest these gunas based on your mindset, and influence your mindset.  So it's good to immerse yourself in sattvic things and people, to be influenced to become more like that.  And it's good to make yourself more sattvic through meditation, because you make the rest of the world like that.

The easiest way to observe the gunas is to sit still without distractions and watch yourself.  If you are thinking of tons of things, and being all anxious, that's rajaisic.  If you are falling asleep, or just having a very drifting mindset, daydreaming, that's tamasic.  If you are in the moment, calm and mindful, that's sattvic.

What do you have to share, Naz?

[Naz]

Hi, there.

I’m just dropping in for a short few words.

Scott, thanks for your message. I hope to write more about the Gunas later.

Your rendering is about 50% correct. Some things are totally wrong (in my opinion, of course). For a short illustration, imagine a 3D space of energy transformations. Top is the Absolute. Bottom is the Expressed Reality. A point in this space characterizes any phenomenon (including the mental phenomena, which are the basis of everything expressed). If you are at a certain point, Sattva is the force which can drive your development (change with the flow of the time) upwards. Tamas is the force, which can drive you downwards. And Rajas is the force which expands and extends your line (area) of action while remaining on the same relative level between the Absolute and Expressed.

From the above, if you understand the illustration, one thing should be clear: Sattva is NO WAY between the Rajas and Tamas. Sattva is the relative top (or the upward tendency of the mind, to be more exact, it is the derivative of energy state with respect to time, in mathematical terms; hopefully, there are at least some people here who can read this definition). Tamas is the relative bottom (or the downward tendency). And Rajas is in between (or the level, on which the energy does not become more abstract (Sattvic) or more expressed (Tamasic) in relative terms, but reorganizes, transforms and multiplies its expressions, while remaining on the same relative plane between the Absolute and Expressed).

If this is clear at least to some of the readers, I’ll give more info further.

*****

Now, a few words to Katrine.

Well, thanks for the company during the last week.

This forum and its participants (including me) are doubtlessly blessed to have you with us. You’ve successfully shifted a few quite tough aspects of my mentality. I wouldn’t have been able to achieve this change by myself. Please accept my deep and sincere gratefulness for that.

What I can tell, is, that I do not seem to fully fathom your mind, Katrine, at least in the parts which I seem to be interested in. In terms of the significance for my research and the topics pertinent to my understanding of spiritual evolution you appear to be a few steps higher than what I found to be the average level of the people here at AYP (including Yogani). That’s remarkable.

I still feel somewhat knocked out after the first deeper dive into your mind. Girl, you are good…! It’s taken me about five days to roughly digest and get a preliminary understanding of the pattern of your energies. I hope to give more information on that in the future.

But, to be faithful in my rendering, I also have to add: You are not good enough…

Having taken a deeper inhale of your energies, I’ve had a series of truly valuable experiences. And, I am very thankful for that and looking forward to some more. Your energy is Sattvic and you are truly, deep-heartedly on the path, no doubt.

However, you could use some more balance and proportion in your pattern. Having opened and integrated myself into your energy lines, I’ve had a number of things surfacing which show me that you still do have to work on your pattern (if you really care to be the harmonious and pure channel of the Light, which, if I understand you correctly, is the essence of your path).

Relating to the most simple and obvious, during the five days when I allowed myself to be under the wave of your energy I’d cut my fingers two times and broke one big kitchen plate (and I can guarantee that it was your energy, which contributed to this). Also, if you know the expression ‘to have one’s head in the clouds’: it was one of the side effects I experienced. There were also some other things, which are indicative of unbalanced energy.

Now, let me tell you once more: I’m not reproaching. Girl, you are good…! There are not many people capable of getting me that far.

You do have the purity, mercy, sharp spiritual vision and other energy components I need and the ones I miss and am looking for.

But if you had the skills of energy control I have, you’d be able to get rid of the imperfections of your expression you currently suffer from.

I can even tell you very clearly what would have to be changed in order to get a much better result:

* you have to move your personal energy (the energy of ‘I am’) into an impersonal Bhava (like the 10th). There it will not be destructive in personal terms;
* you have to light up a scattering, dispersing and impersonal energy (best would be the Mercury) in your personal Bhava (like the Lagna); Yogani naturally has this feature, by the way.

Once you do these two things, your expression will change unrecognizably. You’ll achieve a distinctly new level.

There are a few more things in your replies I feel like commenting:

* in Bhagavad-Gita lord Krishna says: Follow your Dharma. Better die following your Dharma than live by other person’s Dharma. That, in my opinion, means that one has to go ‘his/her own way’. Yes, one has to make oneself empty to actually become the expression of the Light and to make ‘my way’ as close as possible to the ‘way of the God’. But, since one’s level of emptiness and receptivity is never sufficient and can always be improved, one has to go ‘his/her own way’, gradually making it more and more the ‘way of the God’. That’s your mission in this life. That’s your Dharma – ‘your way’.
* people here at AYP (including you, Katrine) seem to be deeply fond of the ‘simple’ approach to the spirituality. This ‘simple’ approach also appears to be the No.1 priority of Yogani’s rendering. Well, that’s a good thing, but just as long as you don’t make it ‘over-simple’, or ‘artificially/illusionary simple’. You see, the things and theories I’m trying to expose here are not complicated for me. They are simple for me. But they are simple for me now, because some time back I ventured upon exploring them, experimenting with them and risking my own mental comfort and immediate good and positive achievements for the sake of understanding them better. So, in my opinion, one must have the courage to step into the unexplored darkness (unclearness) and bring the Light to the regions one’s attention is not familiar with, in order to have tangible and far-reaching spiritual progress. The Light itself will not do this job for you, unless you explicitly express your desire to move in that direction. Once you are on that path, the Light will guide you and will help you, and that’s the way you can go. But, once more, the Light will not take you to the places you don’t want (or don’t deserve) to be. The Light will not walk your path for you. You have to walk it. And you choose the direction. In the Shamanic path this venturing into the dark, unexplored areas is referred to as the ‘jump into the abyss’.

Thanks everyone. God willing so, I’d also be happy to hear more from Katrine.

[Balance]

Hi Naz. Very interesting stuff.

It does appear to be the case that people here are attracted to a simple, streamlined approach to their spirituality. I tend to have the desire to more and more keep it simple. I see the effortless rising of ever-new manifestation from Source and ask myself why "returning" shouldn't be as effortless.

On the first page of this thread, in your dirty and downgrading sexuality post , you mentioned that aquarian energy was among the darkest and most Tamasic available to us. Could you elaborate on that a little? This body of mine was born with a hefty abundance of aquarian influenced planetary positions. Is there anything "positive" that this little self might do with that energy?

Alan

[Katrine]

Hi Naz

 

quote:This forum and its participants (including me) are doubtlessly blessed to have you with us. You’ve successfully shifted a few quite tough aspects of my mentality. I wouldn’t have been able to achieve this change by myself. Please accept my deep and sincere gratefulness for that.

I am very grateful that you allowed this shift to happen, Naz. Of course I accept your gratefulness, as long as you understand that I cannot take any credit for this internal shift. All is due to the real connection.

 

quote:However, you could use some more balance and proportion in your pattern

Absolutely.
This is why I meditate and continue the self inquiry. So far - this simple path (which has brought me much ardous work over the years) seems to keep me in continuous purification. Not pure - but in purification. This is what is important to me - that I keep myself open to the process. This includes all inputs from all kinds of people. I listen first.

It is obvious that you know a great deal about Astrology, Naz. I don't know the first thing about it. I am in no position to either dispute or agree with what you say according your dive into my mind. You certainly know much more about me than I do! I appreciate the time you have spent in sincerely giving me this feed-back. I will read it with an open heart and listen for resonance.

 

quote:The Light itself will not do this job for you, unless you explicitly express your desire to move in that direction

I totally agree. And I turn inwards towards the light as often as possible....I continuously pray to the light....I ask for guidence. Every day.

Thank you so much, Naz

I wish you all the best

[Katrine]

quote: In terms of the significance for my research and the topics pertinent to my understanding of spiritual evolution you appear to be a few steps higher than what I found to be the average level of the people here at AYP (including Yogani).

I am no higher or lower than anyone else, Naz. We are all one.

A mans actions speak for themselves.
I am nowhere near accomplishing what Yogani has done. What he is, he is in depth. I am very, very grateful to him for AYP and this Forum.
Without him, we would not have met.

We all have to walk our talk. I have much to learn - of this I am certain.

[glagbo]

Hi Naz:

Naz: Sattva is the relative top (or the upward tendency of the mind, to be more exact, it is the derivative of energy state with respect to time, in mathematical terms; hopefully, there are at least some people here who can read this definition). Tamas is the relative bottom (or the downward tendency).

If this is clear at least to some of the readers, I’ll give more info further.


Why bring in these technical mathematical terms? In this forum setting, IMHO, your prosaic definition of the derivative as rate of change would have sufficed for most of the readers.

Naz, I learned about derivatives in a Calculus class in college a long, long time ago. If in your 3D model above, one were to define E_a as energy level, counted positive toward top (absolute), then
 Sattva = E_a'(t) = dE_a(t)/dt = lim_(h->0) [E_a(t+h)-E_a(t)]/h.
Since Tamas is the downward tendency (according to your model), would that give
Tamas = -E_a'(t) = -dE_a(t)/dt;
Would that not lead to
Tamas = -Sattva?
Is that true, At all points of your model, always? Is that what you claim?

Could you please provide (email) a full technical description of your model?

Naz, why the need for all this pedandism, and attempt at bamboozlement and belittling of the rest of us? Why the Pedandism in sex issues, pedandism in Vedic astrology, pedandism in yoga, pedantic mystification in Samyama, derivatives, etc.

Naz, what is this big, glorious Knowledge that you claim to have developed? You seem to have a lot to offer.
Please, Naz, do go ahead and dump it all (yes all you've got) on us, in one big chunk.
You may be nicely surprized by how much people can handle.

You claim that your advanced development in Samyama/Astrology/Yogic/Spiritual gives you deep insight into the state of achievement and spiritual shortcomings of people which interact with you.

Being all basically creatures of similar molds, we all have some (albeit limited)insight into one another's reality. My own insight as a mature plain old earthling would indicate that you would gain much from dropping all that mystification, and instead just presenting your interesting self to the world as you are (,at least to some level).  

Blasting the mountain down will not make one higher than its summit.
As Katrine says, we need, ourselves, to actually walk (or climb) the talk to the summit (Katrine, please correct on this paraphrazing if I am too far off).

Peace, and let's stop hiding behind "derivatives", and other derived cliches.

B.R.V.

[Hannah]

I am so glad someone has the guts to bring this topic up Naz!  The "sexual" tantra is the kaula form, which is the lowest form of tantra.  Samaya is the highest form of tantra and does not use  sexuality at all.

[yogani]

quote:Originally posted by Hannah

I am so glad someone has the guts to bring this topic up Naz!  The "sexual" tantra is the kaula form, which is the lowest form of tantra.  Samaya is the highest form of tantra and does not use  sexuality at all.

Hi Hannah:

Celibacy is a viable option in AYP, as are tantric sexual relations. There is no one right answer on this. It depends on the individual's bhakti (spiritual desire) and the energy dynamics that are operating within the person due to the level of purification in the nervous system. Of course, deep meditation, spinal breathing pranayama and other practices will shift these dynamics over time. Even then, it is always a matter of personal choice.  

For one approach to impose its will on the other will invariably lead to difficulties. Don't we know it?

See this lesson on the relationship of brahmacharya, tantric sex, and celibacy: http://www.aypsite.com/plus/T9.html

All the best!

The guru is in you.

[david_obsidian]

Anyone who is overly-attracted to celibacy should have themselves checked over for the possibility of cerebral narcissism,  just to be absolutely sure that, if they are attracted to celibacy, it is for the right reasons.  Below is a discussion of the cerebral-narcissism issue,  with specific mention of the connection to celibacy. ( For the full article, see
here .)

The guy who wrote the bit below is a self-professed cerebral narcissist.  In particular,  be wary as hell of an attraction to celibacy, coupled with the other aspects of cerebral narcissism,  which include constantly trying to show how brainy one is, trying to seize status over other people by intellectual means, etc. etc. etc.  If all those parts line up, it doesn't look like celibacy for the right and mature 'spiritual' reason.


The Cerebral Narcissist  by Sam Vaknin

Narcissists are either cerebral or somatic. In other words, they either generate their narcissistic supply by applying their bodies or by applying their minds.

[...] The cerebral narcissist is a know-it-all, haughty and intelligent "computer". He uses his awesome intellect, or knowledge (real or pretended) to secure adoration, adulation and admiration. [..] Both types are auto-erotic (psychosexually in love with themselves, with their bodies and with their brain). Both types prefer masturbation to adult, mature, interactive, multi-dimensional and emotion-laden sex. [...] The cerebral narcissist is often celibate (even when he has a girlfriend or a spouse).

I am a cerebral narcissist. I brandish my brainpower, exhibit my intellectual achievements, bask in the attention given to my mind and its products. I hate my body and neglect it. It is a nuisance, a burden, a derided appendix, an inconvenience, a punishment. Needless to add that I rarely have sex (often years apart). I masturbate regularly, very mechanically, as one would change water in an aquarium. I stay away from women because I perceive them to be ruthless predators who are out to consume me and mine.

[...]
I miss my somatic half. I wish I could find a balance, but I know it is a doomed quest. This sexual beast of mine will forever be trapped in the intellectual cage that is I, Sam Vaknin, the Brain.

[Hannah]

Thank you Yogani for your input.  I was not necessarily advocating celibacy (unless of course one chooses that lifestyle), rather pointing out the fact that what is often considered "tantra" in the West is the lowest form of tantra, kaula, which is oriented around much lower (sexual) energies.  I would think a spiritual aspirant would favor the more spiritually uplifting samaya tantra.  But, to each his own and thank God for giving us freewill to decide for ourselves.  

[yogani]

Hi Hannah:

The thing is, the lower centers cannot be developed spiritually without developing the higher centers. There is a direct connection and interdependence. This is why tantric sexual methods alone do not go far without a daily routine of effective sitting practices, which finally resolves the stigma and failings of "western tantra."

Neither can the higher centers be developed spiritually without developing the lower centers, which is why the "higher tantras" include elements of practice covering the lower centers. To be all one or the other will lead to imbalance.

Regardless of lifestyle preferences (which can surely be accommodated in a flexible self-directed approach), balance in practices is the key, covering the full range of the nervous system.

"Higher tantra" utilizes meditation, pranayama, asanas, mudras, bandhas and other methods to cultivate the whole nervous system, leading to a balanced whole body opening, which includes the rise of both inner silence and ecstatic conductivity. The latter (the expansion of spiritual ecstasy) is an expansion upward of sexual neurobiological functioning, whether it is called that or not. It is clothed in the language of metaphor in the higher tantras (Sri Vidya and Kundalini lore), but it is the same transformation occurring within all devoted aspirants, regardless of preferred method, label, or creed.  

The sexual neurobiology cannot be excluded from the spiritual equation any more than can be the body, breath, heart, or mind. All are part of the whole. It is only a matter of natural preference and approach. Still, in that, we cannot exclude an aspect of ourselves as a matter of convenience, or for avoiding karmic obstructions which sooner or later will be dissolved to fully reveal our inner light. Spiritual practices, whether from so-called higher or lower tantra, are for purifying every nook and cranny of our nervous system from top to bottom. With help in purification through effective practices, nature will take her course within us. All spiritual practices are for promoting the natural process of human spiritual transformation.    

The path is within us, and not defined by any external source. All external sources, including the much ballyhooed scriptures and external gurus, are but aids to us on our own inner journey of purification and opening.

Certainly we will take advantage of external sources. They are obviously important. Yet, somewhere along the way we will find that the scripture and guru have been stirring within us all along, leading us home. That's why I keep saying...  

The guru is in you.

[Wolfgang]

Hi yogani,

you should include this excellent post somewhere in your lessons.
It is a marvellous summary

[Hannah]

I would first like to say that after typing out my response below, I initially hesitated to post it.  I had to really question myself as to whether I was responding solely for the sake of arguement, or did I really have something to say that might be worthwhile to others?  Given the real-life example provided below, I decided that it ~might~ help someone, so I am humbly participating in this discussion.

By what you stated below Yogani, if I understand correctly, is that all centers (chakras) are developed by practicing the higher tantras.  So why not pursue that or even using AYP without the tantra portion?  From my own prior experience, I can most certainly feel the lower chakras activated by use of standard mantra repetition.  The lower form of tantra, kaula, as so eloquently elaborated on by Naz, can carry along with it, lower energies.  Someone who has not yet developed a sensitivity to energy may not be aware of what is being done to their overall energetic system.  I only say this because I have personally witnessed destructive behaviors, even a severe psychosis, by someone who got carried away with "sex meditation".  She thought she was married to a demon.  While that sounds almost too ludicrous to be real, it indeed happened. [She is still happily married to the best of my knowledge!] I am not advocating celibacy, nor am I against it.  For spiritual progress though, it would seem logically to behoove the aspirant to avoid the lower forms of tantra.  There is still the remaining smorgasboard of practices.  Just look at the size of the AYP book!  And that's just AYP!  Once you have had a good chuckle about the example given above, it becomes even scarier to learn that she is the mother of two teenage children.  Truly an extreme example of where this can lead.

It seems we agree that it is important to find a balanced practice and I thank you Yogani for the work you have done to that end with making AYP accessible to all!    And again, thanks to Naz for bringing this rather charged topic to be discussed.

Blessings to All

quote:Originally posted by yogani
The thing is, the lower centers cannot be developed spiritually without developing the higher centers. There is a direct connection and interdependence. This is why tantric sexual methods alone do not go far without a daily routine of effective sitting practices, which finally resolves the stigma and failings of "western tantra."

Neither can the higher centers be developed spiritually without developing the lower centers, which is why the "higher tantras" include elements of practice covering the lower centers. To be all one or the other will lead to imbalance.

[yogani]

Hi Hannah:

Not a silly example at all, and very worthwhile to bring up. But it is not necessarily related entirely to engaging in simple pre-orgasmic sex.

Just to be clear, the role of tantric sex in AYP is based entirely on one's existing sexual habits and preferences. In other words, if someone is going to be engaging in sex anyway, then why not bring a spiritual benefit along with it? And if sex is not in the picture, that is okay too. We have multiple means for cultivating spiritual progress in either situation.

As you know, AYP is not involved in rituals, and certainly not in working with "lower energies." The act of engaging in pre-orgasmic sex refines and elevates sexual energy to a much more celestial experience, rather than degrading it into lower manifestions. That is why it is done. This is also true of the various yogic techniques coming from high tantra that are stimulating the same energies.  

If there is inherent instability in a person, any yoga practice could cause some aggravation of that -- not just tantric sex. Out of all the AYP practices, tantric sex is probably the least risky in that respect. Regardless, in cases where practices contribute to instability, we take immediate action with self-pacing -- scaling back on practices until we find stability in the practice routine and in daily life.

What we are talking about with severe psychological reactions isn't the yoga methods necessarily, but a person's sensitivities and vulnerabilities. We have to be careful when such vulnerabilities are found to be present, self-pace practices immediately, engage in the necessary grounding methods, and seek professional help as needed.

So, this issue you are raising does not have to do primarily with tantric sex, but with all yoga practices in relation to the aspirant's mental health. Extreme instability in relation to yoga practices is an issue pertaining to certain individuals, and we have seen a few cases like that over the past several years. Fortunately only a few. In those cases, yoga techniques were not the initial cause, but may have aggravated a pre-existing condition, particularly if practices were done to excess over a period of time.

Whether or not a person is engaging in tantric sexual methods like the ones presented in AYP is the least of it. The higher techniques can be more risky for those with serious psychologicial issues, because such practices are much more powerful than tantric sex. The truth is, the power of tantric sex by itself is way over-rated.

So engaging in higher tantra (meditation, etc,) is not necessarily going to be the answer in cases where psychological instability is present, though there have been some cases where deep meditation and/or spinal breathing pranayama have helped a lot. Others will say that people with serious psychological issues should avoid meditation altogether, and start with asanas for a good while instead.

Everyone is different, and we are not doctors here. We do our best to provide a self-directed system of yoga practices that will be effective and safe for the vast majority of people. For those who have serious psycholocial issues, specialized attention is required, and we are not necessarily the best qualified for that.

Btw, we have had some pretty good discussions on yoga and mental health in the forums in months past. Pehaps others can point to them.

All the best!

The guru is in you.

[Christi]

Hi Naz,

 

quote:First of all Yogani, I am really thankful to you. I do feel thankful to you for establishing this forum, where I can write and express my opinions. I am also thankful to you for not kicking me off from here for being your opponent and not adhering to many of your teachings.

I never thought I would see such a heartfelt thank you coming from you Naz. You are really starting to surprise me (in a good way!). But don't worry, you are not Yogani's opponent. It would be quite funny if you were. Actually you are not anyone's opponent, and you never have been. Not in this realm, or in any of the other multi-faceted energy universes that lie behind this one .

 

quote: But there’s nothing special about the Samadhi thing. Samadhi is not your final destination on your spiritual quest.

Actually Yogani has never said that samadhi is the final destination on the spiritual path. He has talked in the main lessons on this website about the levels of human realization beyond samadhi. He has also discussed this elsewhere in the forum.


At the risk of being crucified, I thought I'd just mention that writing controversial posts that you don't even believe are true, in order to invite a response from people, and then to do everything you can to try and undermine them and upset them is not a spiritual practice. No-one has ever taught it as a spiritual practice, and it does not lead to divine realization. It is actually quite a sick game that is more likely to attract demonic energies than any unbalanced sexual practices or unhealthy sexual repression ever could.  

And the demonic energies are present, aren't they?

Much love

Christi