Resistance, fear and control issues

[Katrine]

Hi Jim

 

quote:I hope it's becoming a bit clearer what I'm saying now.

I am not unclear as to what you are saying, Jim. Your story is your story. I hear you loud and clear.

What I am most happy about when it comes to your posts here in this topic, is the fact that you made it clear to me that I come through to you (and probably others) as someone who thinks herself "fully realized". This is not true. Some of my posts make this pretty clear. But some posts obviously doesn't. I am grateful to you for pointing this out.

I am just as ordinary as anybody else in here; and also just as special.

I don't believe in any "end state". The depth of our Source is unfathomable. I will never fathom it. But I do believe that it is possible to be willing to always explore these depths. Deeper and deeper...without ever stopping. In this context, I really don't think it is very fruitful to "grade" the depth reached. It is not important "how far I have come" - only how sincere I am. Understanding the source of my being is what I aspire for most of all. This aspiration is always present in me; and together with the presence, it is what clears up doubts, illusions and stuckness. Which I have plenty of, along with the rest of us.
 
Again - thank you for taking the trouble to help me. In your way - you always do.

[Katrine]

Hi David

 

quote:It's a rare person that has the strength and vision, and motivation, and persistence, to decisively break any deluded spritual mythology about themselves that arises in any kind of 'spiritual' group. Because the mythology is just too delicious a thing for the ego to throw away. So too often the ego likes to have its cake and eat it -- to repudiate the mythology officially on the one hand and then (often subconsciously) cultivate it on the other!

Yes. I don't think any person can really manage this. Only Grace can.

 

quote:At the same time, in your case I can't be sure at all that you even do want the adoration on some subconscious level (only you can be).

I don't want adoration. I want understanding. I love to see! I want to keep adoring what is the basis of my Being. The same basis as yours. I adore that!

Subconsciously I might want any kind of weird thing - I don't know. But I trust that the place in me that knows that I don't know, will lead me on my way. It has so far. Without fail. I make plenty of mistakes; I leave it many times, yet it never leaves me.

[Jim and His Karma]

Katrine, I'm not sure why you think that I think that you think you're fully realized. I don't know and the issue's not of much interest for me (fwiw, I don't think "fully realized" exists, except maybe as a millennial freakish thing). That's not what's being discussed here. You asked: why the strange woman, why the weird fears cropping up, why all this blowback taking place when you feel as if you want nothing but to merge.  I tried to explain to the best of my ability and insight (from my perspective as someone very much in the midst of the same issues).  I'm sorry we're apparently talking past each other, and you seem focused on this being intended as a challenge to some notion of attainment. It's only a challenge if you indeed have mistaken notion on this. If not....perfect! Then you ought to read my postings as they were intended: an attempt to reveal the nooks and crannies and shadows beyond the shiny spiritualized mental place, which are causing all the problems you described (and which I share). It's not pleasant stuff to bring to light, but neither is it prudent to keep under wraps (believe me...I've tried).

I'm sounding the warning for you and others: again, it gets worse. Fears and desires keep intensifying as silence grows.  It's the opportunity to really put one's detach/surrender/love reflex to the test. How deep is your bhakti?

[sadhak]

quote:
I'm sounding the warning for you and others: again, it gets worse. Fears and desires keep intensifying as silence grows.  It's the opportunity to really put one's detach/surrender/love reflex to the test. How deep is your bhakti?

Here you are, speed inspectors, with the ticket. Did feel that intensifying of fear and desire, the messiah gene tickling a bit once a while. (Dare I admit)

As for detachment: the desire to get embroiled in long wordplay here can be one solid attachment; so can the fear of getting embroiled in a debate.

Woaah, we rreaally got to watch ourselves.

[Anthem]

quote:I'm sounding the warning for you and others: again, it gets worse. Fears and desires keep intensifying as silence grows. It's the opportunity to really put one's detach/surrender/love reflex to the test. How deep is your bhakti?

Hi Jim,

I appreciate this has been your experience, but this hasn't been what I have noticed for myself as silence grows. It hasn't gotten worse, life has only improved in all areas. Certainly at times of intense clearing out, it can definitely feel temporarily like the opposite.

From my perspective, silence grows and thoughts diminish. They have become less frequent for me and don't carry the same emotional punch they once did. What used to take me for a 3 week emotional roller-coaster ride is now handled within hours or minutes thanks to increased inner silence (presence, witness etc.). Detachment grows as we become more identified with our witness self and less identified with the virtual world of our thoughts and their corresponding emotional reactions.  

Fears certainly do come to the surface and we become more aware of them through the clearing out process. I can see how this could be perceived as an intensification as they come to the conscious foreground after laying somewhat dormant in the unconscious background. The fact that we can now face what once had to be buried deep within, because it was too much to digest at the time, is a testament to the capacity of what our inner silence can now handle and absorb.

Looking at desires separately, from my experience things I used to want to be or get are no longer appealing. That flat screen TV is just not that exciting and it is no longer imperative that people think I’m wonderful. In general, many things that I used to feel were supremely important no longer hold the same appeal. They have been replaced by new desires that correspond more closely to my spiritual practices.

My greatest desire is to live in reality, to not miss a single second of this gift of life, to be of service to others (because it feels so good) and to be firmly rooted in the here and now.

Please God make it so!

Amen

[Anthem]

quote: is the fact that you made it clear to me that I come through to you (and probably others) as someone who thinks herself "fully realized".

 
Hi Katrine,

For the record, I have never thought you think of yourself this way. We are all here working to clear ourselves out to the best of our abilities, some have been at it longer and/ or more intensely than others, it is as simple as that. We are all the same "beingness" in our core, we are all equal.

You are an inspiration however, as you have great courage to face your fears and to share it with us without hiding any of yourself. You leave no stoned unturned and as a result are extremely clear because of your efforts, we are lucky you are here. As you share, we all learn, this is true for all of us here. The more naked and truthful we can be about our own humanness, the more we all benefit.

[Katrine]

Hi Anthem

 

quote:For the record, I have never thought you think of yourself this way.

I am glad to hear that.

 

quote:The more naked and truthful we can be about our own humanness, the more we all benefit.

Amen to that!

 

quote:The fact that we can now face what once had to be buried deep within, because it was too much to digest at the time, is a testament to the capacity of what our inner silence can now handle and absorb.

Yes. I trust that inner silence will continue to do the work. Often, the resolution of an issue is felt as a stilling of all questions. It is not that the question necessarily gets answered (often it doesn't) - it is more that the question itself dissolves. Then  - because mind is still, heart is at peace.

When i am "under the weather" (out of conscious touch) - I have most questions. Mind works that way. It is restless when cut off.

[Katrine]

Hi Jim

 

quote:I tried to explain to the best of my ability and insight (from my perspective as someone very much in the midst of the same issues)

I appreciate this, Jim!

[Jim and His Karma]

Anthem, I'm not talking about life getting worse, nor am I talking about thinking increasing. I'm talking about desires and fears magnifying at the point when silence really starts increasing. This is written about in all the yoga texts, including AYP.

And it's not a "suffering" thing, necessarily. It's only that if you're attached (attachment = suffering). But as the magnification happens, one's detachment is certainly tested. If you haven't experienced it yet, you will. It's something everyone goes through. We all have subconsciouses that have their own agenda, and as our silence grows, those subconscious agendas are magnified via that lens, just as silence magnifies samyama from our conscious mind.

[david_obsidian]

Yes. I don't think any person can really manage this. Only Grace can.

Good answer Katrine....  At the same time, one doesn't want one's house infested with cockroaches while one says only grace can manage them!(And, I'm not,  by any means imaginable, saying that you, personally,  have a house infested with cockroaches in this respect).  Cockroaches are eliminated by vigilance.  They are eliminated by not giving them crumbs.  By throwing the crumbs in the trash when they arise.  And that takes motivation and persistence.

Anthem said:
The more naked and truthful we can be about our own humanness, the more we all benefit.

Say it a hundred thousand times Anthem!  Truthfulness, truthfulness, truthfulness!  Into a thousand ashrams scream it night and day! Truthfulness about our humanness is this 'throwing away the crumbs' that I talked about. The whole Yoga culture badly needs to learn this lesson.

[Katrine]

quote:Good answer Katrine.... At the same time, one doesn't want one's house infested with cockroaches while one says only grace can manage them!

****laughing****

Point taken, David

[Jim and His Karma]

quote:Originally posted by david_obsidian
One doesn't want one's house infested with cockroaches while one says only grace can manage them!(And, I'm not,  by any means imaginable, saying that you, personally,  have a house infested with cockroaches in this respect).  

We ALL have houses infested with cockroaches! THAT'S THE POINT!

quote:Originally posted by david_obsidian
Cockroaches are eliminated by vigilance.

No! They can NOT be eliminated! They can only be detached from! The alternative is to spend your life in an unending state of whack-a-mole, waiting for the illusory point when it's all JUST RIGHT........which itself is the ultimate in attachments!

We're not trying to get the universe "in here" just right any more than we're trying to get the universe "out there" just right. We're trying to remain at peace amid conditions just exactly as they are right in this very moment no matter what (even if the cockroaches get bigger and scarier).

[david_obsidian]

OK,  Jim, there's a recurring pattern here: I give some advice on avoiding some bad habit or practice, and you chime in with what you believe to be a contradiction of it, but which I would also agree with -- as if the advice to avoid a bad habit were equal to obsession with being free of the habit, or advice to remain in that obsession.

Everything in context.  Yes, we have to live with cockroaches and not be obsessed with being free of them.  Yes, we have to work on good habits to eliminate them.  Those pieces of advice don't contradict each other at all.

[Anthem]

Thanks for clarifying Jim![]

[Jim and His Karma]

David, don't mind my samskaras! (that'd make an awesome bumper sticker)