SupremeBanana
Belgium
5 Posts
Posted - Jun 17 2015 : 09:35:16 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Topic Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Message Delete Topic
Hi folks,
So my question is, is it okay to combine both practices? The reason why I want to do this is because by restricting the breath it gives me an opportunity to make my inhalation and exhalation longer so I can follow the whole thread between root and crown. When I breath normally my breath is usually not long enough to follow the whole shushumna en it causes distress (tension, hyperventilation, coughing) when I try to make it longer.
When I try to inhale normally starting from the root chakra my breath doesn't pass the hearth area, and even that takes a lot of effort since breathing normal and relaxed means inhalations of 2,3,4 seconds max for me. And going through the whole shushumna in that time just doesn't feel "right"
I've been practicing for almost a year now and my breathing is still quite short
Edited by - SupremeBanana on Jun 17 2015 09:36:12 AM
Will Power
Spain
415 Posts
Posted - Jun 17 2015 : 1:09:40 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi, Sushumna breathing should be done with ujjaji. With it the breath will be longer.
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SupremeBanana
Belgium
5 Posts
Posted - Jun 17 2015 : 1:34:35 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi,
Well I understand that is only for the out breath, which is okay, my question is primarily for the in breath where most problems arise
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Jun 17 2015 : 4:48:14 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi SupremeBanana,
Don't attempt to combine both Alternate Nostril Breathing (ANB) and Spinal Breathing Pranayama (SBP) into one practice. If you want to do both practices, you could do ANB for 5 minutes or so before you begin SBP. Doing the practices in this way will help to calm the mind and the body before you begin SBP and you will probably find that your breathing becomes deeper and slower anyway when you begin the SBP practice.
During SBP the route should be between the root chakra and the forehead (ajna) and not the crown as going to the crown could cause many problems later on.
See here:
"Next, with each rising inhalation of the breath, allow your attention to travel upward inside a tiny thread, or tube, you visualize beginning at your perineum, continuing up through the center of your spine, and up through the stem of your brain to the center of your head. At the center of your head the tiny nerve makes a turn forward to the point between your eyebrows. With one slow, deep inhalation let your attention travel gradually inside the nerve from the perineum all the way to the point between the eyebrows. As you exhale, retrace this path from the point between the eyebrows all the way back down to the perineum. Then, come back up to the point between the eyebrows with the next inhalation, and down to the perineum with the next exhalation, and so on. "
That is from
lesson 41.
Don't worry too much about the length of the breath during SBP. If it is uncomfortable to make it very slow and deep then just make it as slow as you can without it being uncomfortable. As you progress with SBP and with meditation the breath will become slower over time anyway and at some point will begin to suspend altogether during both practices.
If you are skipping the heart area during SBP that is also not a problem. The important thing is to be ending up at the root chakra (perineum) at the end of each exhale and ending up at the forehead (ajna) at the end of each inhalation. What happens in between will sort itself out over time. Quite often when there is an energetic blockage in a particular area such as the heart, it will be hard to move through that area with your attention. But the simple act of moving past that area from root to third eye and back again will clear the blockage. It may take time, so be patient with it.
Christi
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SupremeBanana
Belgium
5 Posts
Posted - Jun 17 2015 : 5:54:50 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Christi, thank you for your clear answer, this helped me a lot
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LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts
Posted - Jun 17 2015 : 11:38:59 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Ujjaji is done with both the in-breath and the out-breath. After some time the breath will naturally slow down to what is right for you. Give it time.
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SupremeBanana
Belgium
5 Posts
Posted - Jun 18 2015 : 3:52:18 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I tried my pranayama today with ujjayi on the in-breath too and it was really nice, long controlled in-breath and very pleasant feelings. Before I had the impression that Yogani suggested that ujjayi should only be done with out-breath, which confused me actually since I mostly read in other sources that it should indeed be done with the in-breath and out-breath
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Jun 18 2015 : 4:54:30 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi SupremeBanana,
You are right, with Spinal Breathing Pranayama ujjayi is only applied on exhalation with inhalation not being restricted.
See here:
"On the exhalations, allow your epiglottis to close enough so that there is a small restriction of the air leaving your lungs. The epiglottis is the door in your throat that automatically closes your windpipe (trachea) when you hold your breath or swallow. By partially closing it as you exhale, a fine hissing sound will occur in your throat. This is called "ujjayi." Be easy about it. Don't strain. Keep the slow, deep rhythm of breathing you have become accustomed to as you add this small restriction in the throat during exhalations. On the inhalations, allow the throat to relax and open more than usual. Do not restrict the air coming in. Rather, allow the deepest part of your throat to open wide, comfortably. Do not change the slow, deep rhythm of breathing you have been doing. Keep your mouth closed during pranayama."
Again, that is from
lesson 41.
In many schools of yoga ujjayi is used with the in-breath and out-breath during pranayama, but not with SBP. Using ujjayi with exhalation will slow the out-breath down and you will find that automatically, over time, as the out-breath is slowed, the inbreath will also slow down. This is because the out-going breath and in-coming breath are connected through the flows of prana in the body.
Christi
LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts
Posted - Jun 18 2015 : 10:44:35 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Christi, although Yogani teaches SBP with only ujjayi on the out-breath, other traditions (Kriya yoga, shushumna pranayama, etc) do teach it with ujjayi on both in and out breaths. I have done it this way for two decades at least. There is no harm in it if done in an easy manner and it does help slow down and control the in-breath. The in-breath ujjayi has an 'open' throat that is still somewhat restricted in a different way than the out-breath. Sort of like whispering 'backwards'. Best way to learn it is by watching some one else. There may be a good YouTube video somewhere.
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Jun 19 2015 : 09:54:48 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Little Turtle,
I think there might be some confusion here regarding terminology. When I talk about Spinal Breathing Pranayama (SBP) I am talking about the specific practice taught in AYP by Yogani and outlined in lesson 41. It comprises a basic form of kriya pranayama with two additions, ujjayi breathing and brahmari (bee sound) which is found in
lesson 229 of the printed and online Easy lessons for Ecstatic Living book.
So if someone is teaching something different from that (and many people do), then that is not Spinal Breathing Pranayama. Hence what I said above, that ujjayi breathing with inhalation is not used with Spinal Breathing Pranayama.
Of course, other people do teach different things and as far as AYP is concerned, if someone makes a modification to baseline practice then that is that individuals personal experiment. It could be beneficial, or it might not be and each individual would have to find out on their own. I have no doubt at all that using ujjayi breathing with inhalation has not done you any harm. There is little reason why it should do. But as I am sure you know, ujjayi breathing does more than simply slow the breath down. It also causes a slight pressure to build up in the upper torso and head area and increases the flow of prana in these regions. This in turn will increase the activation of some of the higher centres, especially the heart, throat and third eye. Using ujjayi on the inhilation has a more powerful effect on the higher centres than ujjayi on exhalation simply because the prana is already rising with the inhalation.
With making
modifications to the baseline practice in AYP, it must be remembered that there can be a potential doubling-up effect. Quite often people make modifications specifically because the modification is thought to be more powerful than the basic practice without it. With each modification made, this potential doubling-up effect becomes more of a concern and potentially more of an issue further down the line. That is the case, even if a certain individual modification is recommended by another school of yoga, or taught by a famous teacher, or has been practised by someone for 20 years without any problems.
Christi
LittleTurtle
USA
342 Posts
Posted - Jun 19 2015 : 1:31:21 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
well then Christi, pranams to having the last word if you must
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts
Posted - Jun 19 2015 : 7:19:55 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Christie thanks for the reminders it is far to easy to add more to the practice found it instructional and helpful.
Something to point out though is that once the neurobiology brings one to the practice of Kechari the ujjayi breathing both in and out takes care of itself and is most certainly present in spinal breathing both ways unless one makes an effort to expand the throat to prevent this and that is a distraction.
Then again Kechari itself is either a naturally occuring modification or a forced one, and not to be confused with the baseline practice of spinal breathing.
It is waited for here for ecstatic conductivity to guide if this mudra is performed or not and it always is within a few breaths but at times it will also guide not to be in place and then it will demand to be in place this is what is being decribed as natural versus making a decision and sending it up or forcing the mudra to remain in place against the natural desire
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Holy
796 Posts
Posted - Jun 19 2015 : 8:10:04 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Holy's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi SupremeBanana,
coming to spinal breathing pranayama as defined by Yogani on this site, Christi's explanations are correct.
In the kriya pranayama of Lahiri Mahasaya, which by many is regarded as the source of spinal breathing pranayama, breathing happens with ujjayi in both directions. There are no problems or concerns in this, as it is practiced that way for hours daily with only good effects.
Regarding alternate nostril breathing, it changes the overall practice effect quite dramatically. Depending on the respnsiveness of your body-mind, it may be a welcomed addition or too much energy happening in the side channels. Trying out and seeing is the only way to find out
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SupremeBanana
Belgium
5 Posts
Posted - Jun 20 2015 : 05:21:53 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Thanks for the input people!
For a while I will use ujjayi for in-breath and out-breath, since it seems to go well for now, but I will back off if I feel it is too much
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adishivayogi
USA
197 Posts
Posted - Jun 20 2015 : 2:31:43 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
you are breathing through the side nadis using alt nose breathing. this is hatha yoga. not kriya(ayp is a type of kriya)
Edited by - adishivayogi on Jun 20 2015 2:50:39 PM
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Jun 20 2015 : 5:07:46 PM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by So-Hi
Hi Christie thanks for the reminders it is far to easy to add more to the practice found it instructional and helpful.
Something to point out though is that once the neurobiology brings one to the practice of Kechari the ujjayi breathing both in and out takes care of itself and is most certainly present in spinal breathing both ways unless one makes an effort to expand the throat to prevent this and that is a distraction.
Then again Kechari itself is either a naturally occuring modification or a forced one, and not to be confused with the baseline practice of spinal breathing.
It is waited for here for ecstatic conductivity to guide if this mudra is performed or not and it always is within a few breaths but at times it will also guide not to be in place and then it will demand to be in place this is what is being decribed as natural versus making a decision and sending it up or forcing the mudra to remain in place against the natural desire
Hi So-Hi,
Kechari mudra is a much more advanced practice than ujjayi breathing, so once that is being added, and once ecstatic conductivity is present, the flows of prana happening will be much greater than those produced by ujjayi, whether used on the inhale, or the exhale. This is especially true if kechari is becoming an automatic practice.
As I am sure you know from your kechari practice, kechari mudra works to activate higher chakras than ujjayi does, activating the secret spot in the nasal pharynx which is connected more to the third eye and crown, rather than activating the heart, throat and to a lesser extent the third eye as ujjayi does. For that reason I would recommend continuing with ujjayi on the exhale, even if the breath is being restricted in the nasal pharynx by the tongue in kechari. As I mentioned already, ujjayi is more than simply the restriction of the breath. I have already mentioned the increased pressure that ujjayi puts on the lungs. Another aspect of ujjayi is that it causes a slight vibration to happen at the throat which has an effect on the activation of the throat chakra and heart. This purificatory effect is not reproduced simply by restricting the air flow higher up in the head.
Christi
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So-Hi
USA
481 Posts
Posted - Jun 20 2015 : 6:23:44 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi Christi
Quite so
quote:
so once that is being added, and once ecstatic conductivity is present, the flows of prana happening will be much greater than those produced by ujjayi, whether used on the inhale, or the exhale.
Yes this is very true with this specific Neurobiology in this specific body when Kechari first came as a result of ecstatic conductivity there was a significant amount of rewiring that followed tremendous openings and purifications and it was a bit much and took close to two years to really enter a more how should this be phrased Manageable state or perhaps more familiar as overloads are still entirely possible without effective Self Pacing Management.
quote:
This is especially true if kechari is becoming an automatic practice
Very very true when it becomes automatic one just has to get out of ones own way and let it happen.
quote:
kechari mudra works to activate higher chakras than ujjayi does, activating the secret spot in the nasal pharynx which is connected more to the third eye and crown, rather than activating the heart, throat and to a lesser extent the third eye as ujjayi does.
Yes I have noticed this but in my case the Spinal breathing allows focus to remain out of the crown as past experience with crown centric practices led to having to just having to come back down and do the real work of purification instead of just cheating up and out.
So here it is practiced to not only go to the point between the brows but easily favoring returning to the point between the brows even when the prana decides it would rather go to the crown, Have learned so many wonderful things from you and yogani reading the AYP material over the years and the point of EASILY FAVORING is my favorite seconded only by SELF PACING.
More on topic it has been noticed while in Kechari that there is a tendency to draw too hard on the inhalation and this can be felt in the lungs, it is not pleasant and a slight movement of the tongue and opening of the airway is best to open this, at first it is a distraction but somehow the body remembers to keep it open more on the inhalation and everything smooths out.
Also agree with you and Yogani take it easy on the inhalation and focus on the exhalation Ujjayi this helps keep focus in the spinal nerve to work through the obstructions as they are encountered in a gentle smooth way but without it one may not be able to go past minor constrictions / obstructions and only get a thin trickle through where they could have had a easy stream without forcing of course.
In other words moving the energy up is always easier bringing it back down takes a little time in practice before it evens out with the upward motion.
In this body it has been discovered that when the flow is too much upwards and downwards is not as even in ecstatic conductive flow the cure is rather simple. After exhaling simply stay at the Perineum for a while before inhaling and tracing upwards again, it is not known why this works only that it does, probably something to do with being incarnate in Human Male form and not honoring the divine Female Principle enough tending to favor the Male principle after the inhalation and tracing of the spinal nerve to brow is complete.
Or in terms of polarity to much favoring one pole of the practice and thereby weakining the entire practice.
quote:
For that reason I would recommend continuing with ujjayi on the exhale, even if the breath is being restricted in the nasal pharynx by the tongue in kechari. As I mentioned already, ujjayi is more than simply the restriction of the breath. I have already mentioned the increased pressure that ujjayi puts on the lungs. Another aspect of ujjayi is that it causes a slight vibration to happen at the throat which has an effect on the activation of the throat chakra and heart. This purificatory effect is not reproduced simply by restricting the air flow higher up in the head.
Oh yes agree 100 percent even though it does become automatic one should never neglect to favor the practice correctly when one finds themself off of it Kechari or not.
Edited by - So-Hi on Jun 20 2015 8:27:17 PM
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Christi
United Kingdom
3543 Posts
Posted - Jun 21 2015 : 08:17:22 AM Show Profile Email Poster Visit Christi's Homepage Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi So-Hi,
Good to hear you have been getting such good results with kechari.
Yes, if you feel the prana moving towards the crown chakra and you feel it is too early for that to be happening in your sadhana, you can simply bring it towards the ajna using your attention. The word "ajna" means "control" for this reason. You may also find that sambhavi mudra helps in drawing the prana forward to the third eye and away from the crown.
With the pause in the breath after exhale when the attention is at the root chakra, this is something that can happen automatically too after a while. It happens because, as you say, the body is trying to balance the energies out between the polarities involved (root to ajna and root to crown). So if it happens automatically it is fine to let it happen. It can also happen at the top end too, at the ajna chakra as I am sure you have experienced. When it happens after exhalation it is called "bahir kumbhaka" in Sanskrit and after an inhalation it is called antara kumbhaka. Women experience both of these forms of natural breath retention too.
If you are adding breath retention deliberately with Spinal Breathing Pranayama at the end of exhalation, then that is a modification to the base-line practice, similar to adding ujjayi with inhalation. So that is something to be aware of. When the flows of prana are strong though, sometimes it can be hard to distinguish between what is deliberate and what is spontaneous, so you have to just work with what is happening.
Christi
