Gurus Gone Wrong

[alan]

Hi Frank

Up to this point in my life I haven't had a physical Guru/disciple relationship.

Half of the stuff that I talk out of my *** is second-hand knowledge, and the other half is just my own ****

In my "un-initiated opinion" though I do believe that my Guru is the only grace sent forth from God to revive me from delusion and is ever waiting for me to open to Guru's divine guidance.

I'm willing to carry on a Guru/sisya relationship without flesh presence until Guru is revealed to me in any form.

Peace, alan

[Wolfgang]

I could speak of personal experiences from a guru/disciple relationship.
But the guru/leader was very detached from me, meaning the actual
face to face experiences were very seldom.
The guru was idolised (by me, by the group) and I personally
had more a relationship with the guru's teaching than with the guru himself.
So from this viewpoint I could share many things, but I don't want
to start a guru-bashing session ...
but I am willing to share whatever is of interest.

[alan]

My relationship over the past few years with Sri Karunamayi could be considered a Guru/sisya relationship. But she always says "I don't come as your Guru, I come as your Mother". And that is who she is to me, my spiritual Mother. She is so sweet and divine, yet so thunderously powerful underneath her little form[8D] I am blessed!

[Jim and His Karma]

The guru is a personification of unity/god/the flow/silence.  For some people, it's helpful to have a "local" version of all that. The pitfall is getting stuck on the local version and never jumping to the universality of it all (or, per this discussion title, having your local personification grab at the wordly perquisites of deity-hood). But the thought is that it's easier to surrender in two small jumps (to local guru, then eventually to the universal) than in one. I'm more of a one big jumper, I think.

It's sort of like driving an automatic car that drives itself, but you are, insanely, sitting at the wheel, very tense, very worried, very stressed, certain you're driving the damned thing (feeling bad about wrong turns taken and rear view mirrors accidentally knocked off, and feeling proud when you're really whipping around corners slickly and making good time). Getting a guru is like hiring a chauffeur to take over "driving" duties. You learn the valuable lesson that you don't have to drive, but you still haven't figured it all out (but at least you can relax and get to work on figuring out the rest). The chauffeurs - even the bad evil ones - mostly all understand the truth behind it all. But sometimes they get caught in the same delusion and revel in the driving, and stop the car to buy blow and hookers.

[Frank-in-SanDiego]

Hari Om
~~~~~~~

quote:Originally posted by Jim and His Karma

The pitfall is getting stuck on the local version and never jumping to the universality of it all (

Jim I see your point, with the right guru ( and there are many types), it is by their grace that one goes from the local to the universal. Now, as I undertand it, and been taught, it is HIS/HER grace that is being offered.  So, there is no 'local guru' from the standpoint of 'i' but is "I", then universal acting through the guru in the flesh , if you allow me to use that appoach... If there is any guru's that go wrong, its this fundamental issue that they think thet are something other then the messenger.

Its Brahman working through them that is their delight for the Brahma-rishi. For this one, we are fortunate to have the relationship with, the INFINITE found in the physical. I am in hope of this realtionship again!

'no one loves any-one, all love is directed to the SELF'  - Upanishads


agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego

[riptiz]

Hi Frank,
Guruji is still in San Francisco if anyone wishes to find out face to face and experience rather than use hearsay.Yes, the guru is only here to help you meet God and it is by their grace.I beleive he also returns to Santa Monica shortly to give shaktipat.
L&L
Dave

'the mind can see further than the eyes'

[Jim and His Karma]

quote:Originally posted by Frank-in-SanDiego
Jim I see your point, with the right guru ( and there are many types), it is by their grace that one goes from the local to the universal.

Sure it is. God's grace. The flow's grace. isvara's grace. Or the grace of your personal local stand-in, the guru. Doesn't matter, cuz grace is grace. Like soybeans, it's a commodity, and it's not specific or personal. It's certainly not "possessed" by any one person, that's the whole point. The conceptualization you make of the source of grace is a short term crutch necessary order to get over the hump, lest you think you're pursuing some sort of goal via your OWN effort (i.e. you simply need to drive the car even better/faster...the harder we try, the more we miss it). It's grace that allows EVERYTHING.

The guru's grace is exactly  the step of allowing the guru to drive the car. You don't need to drive - your guru drives... and that IS his grace!

That's half truth. The truth is that the car, the driving, all of it just IS, and it's all 100% grace (except for Kenny G, of course).

[Frank-in-SanDiego]

quote:Originally posted by Jim and His Karma

God's grace. The flow's grace. isvara's grace. Or the grace of your personal local stand-in, the guru. Doesn't matter, cuz grace is grace.

Jim, thx for the note.  I think we're both saying the same thing...yet my point ( I think) I was trying to communicate is that If the guru that goes sideways,  s/he  may think his/her 'individual' grace has upsurped the universal grace...then grace is not grace; there may be a different name for it.

Its when the guru is NOT visphulinga ( or acting as that divine spark) that there is the possiblity of acting from a-vidya (ignorance).... Now, that said, I have limited knowledge here, for I have not encountered a 'wrong' guru. Because of my definition, he/she would not be considered 'guru' ( dispeller of darkness) if they acted wrongly - which means to me, they are not acting in Brhama-vidya ( or that Fullness).  That is why in the last post I suggested different kinds of guru's - those filled and operating from Brahman, those not.   The ones that go sideways, I cannot imagine are established in Brahman.  




agnir satyam rtam brhat
Frank in San-Diego

[mystic]

The guru in you IS YOU.
(not the illusion of "you" in an ego structure or thought process)

[Kyman]

Isn't everyone our guru?

I guess what I mean is, the universe is a chain with a bunch of links in it.  All links are the chain.

Maybe transcendence is a path where we come to intersect with links that have more qualities that reflect the chain.  But all links on the way to that special link (guru) are still god.

I am sorry to hear what happened with your guru, and I am delighted that you found AYP.  A haven for us, indeed.

[Scott]

Sure you can learn from everything in your life, and it all can lead you to your enlightenment...but everything isn't enlightened.  A 1 year old can't tell you what the path is like..nor can a tree.  Most people in the world are unenlightened, so if you have specific questions you don't get any answers that you want.  Also, some people will say "meditate all day" and some will say "forget about that spiritual bullpap".  If you get your information from one enlightened person, you will have much less confusion.

[david_obsidian]

If you get your information from one enlightened person, you will have much less confusion.

OTOH, if that 'one enlightened person' is themselves confused,  you could be in for serious trouble....

[Scott]

Very true.  It's probably best to take everything with a grain of salt.  At least then it tastes better.

[Kyman]

quote:Originally posted by Scott

Sure you can learn from everything in your life, and it all can lead you to your enlightenment...but everything isn't enlightened.  A 1 year old can't tell you what the path is like..nor can a tree.  Most people in the world are unenlightened, so if you have specific questions you don't get any answers that you want.  Also, some people will say "meditate all day" and some will say "forget about that spiritual bullpap".  If you get your information from one enlightened person, you will have much less confusion.

I would have to disagree with you there, to a degree.  Honor to your point, as I do not want to sound contrary.

I had the blessing of taking care of a few kids, one little girl in particular, for a few years.  Everyday, like a father.

Those relationships of service were my greatest learning experiences.  In having to surrender to the will of a child, I found myself.

A child has what a guru may have covered up and can't find fully.  

You can always trust a child not to break your heart too.

Back to your point, a child cannot walk you in certain steps that might be needed, mentally.  But I strongly feel that emotionally the child can get your there.

I often say that the mother who watches the neighborhood kids, making sure they are sheltered and fed, safe, and going in a positive direction, is one of the truest form of "government".

[Scott]

I saw that you disagreed, but in the rest of the words I couldn't find a reason why or how you disagreed.