1175 From: "Dave Moore" <riptiz@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 4:52am
Subject: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters riptiz
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Dear david,
Challenges are for those with ego just as judgement of
others 'mistakes' are.
> I've never known anyone, ever, operating on a higher level, to
> detest a challenge which comes from a passion for truth;
> detestation, dismissal and disapproval of challenges are a very
low
> road. Convincing with reason and/or demonstration are a very high
> one.
If you believe this then you probably have never met anyone
operating from a higher level or your perception of a higher level
is different to mine and many others.As I mentioned in a previous
post one of the results of enlightenment is a dissolvement of the
ego.Why would anyone without ego need to 'take up a challenge' and
what would it prove to others? Unfortunately we all have ego at our
levels or we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
My guru teaches me that at a higher level of study we need to
correct our thoughts,words and actions for every waking moment.Not
to think ,speak or act towards others in a bad way.I feel I have
broken that by the words I have already written in this post so I
apologise and will say no more.
L&L
dave
1176 From: "david_obsidian1" <david_obsidian1@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 9:19am
Subject: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters david_obsidian1
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> Dear david,
> Challenges are for those with ego just as judgement of
> others 'mistakes' are.
Dave,
I think that is a very mistaken (and all too common) view of what
represents operating 'from a higher level'. First, observe that
your (and maybe someone else's here) way of dealing with
disagreement here is to imply that it comes from a lower level.
There's nothing 'of a higher level' about that, nothing at all.
> > I've never known anyone, ever, operating on a higher level,
to
> > detest a challenge which comes from a passion for truth;
> > detestation, dismissal and disapproval of challenges are a very
> low
> > road. Convincing with reason and/or demonstration are a very
high
> > one.
> If you believe this then you probably have never met anyone
> operating from a higher level or your perception of a higher level
> is different to mine and many others.
> As I mentioned in a previous
> post one of the results of enlightenment is a dissolvement of the
> ego.Why would anyone without ego need to 'take up a challenge' and
> what would it prove to others?
I think your view is oversimplified there. It's true that ego-
defensiveness will be dissolved by enlightenment, so an enlightened
person will probably not 'take up a challenge' in an ego-defensive
way.
The kind of 'challenge' I am talking about is a querying of the
correctness of something. It's an asking-for-more-evidence. It
isn't wrong at all, it is good. If you are accused in the wrong in
a criminal trial (and many people are), and if you have a good
lawyer, he/she'll continually put up challenges to those wrong
accusations. And he/she won't need an unenlightened ego to do it.
And the 'taking up a challenge' that I am talking about is merely
the defense and promotion of the truth. If both sides are committed
to the truth, they are actually 'working for the same team'.
Think about it. Why would someone withhold a true, decisive proof
of something important from the world? That doesn't seem to be very
socially responsible or caring.
> Unfortunately we all have ego at our
> levels or we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
> My guru teaches me that at a higher level of study we need to
> correct our thoughts,words and actions for every waking moment.Not
> to think ,speak or act towards others in a bad way.
> I feel I have
> broken that by the words I have already written in this post so I
> apologise and will say no more.
Ah, I appreciate the sentiment of your apology, which is good,
but you have done me no wrong worth mention. Lighten up -- this is
a playground --- and if you think you have jostled a kid here, he
has tough skin and strong bones.
It's all Good, with a capital 'G', all coming from the one Good
Source. Good is Good, bad is Good, perfection is Good,
imperfection is Good, agreement is Good, disagreement is Good,
challenges are Good, being annoyed by them is Good, if I've done a
bad job here in some way it's Good, and same with you.
Behind it all, you, I, and your Guru are playing for the same
team always, although it may not always seem so.
Best regards,
-David
1179 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 11:45am
Subject: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters jim_and_his_...
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David said
----
I don't believe that they can demonstrate, to scientific standards, any ability to
consistently produce anything beyond enhanced intuition. The ability to get consistently
into some sort of truly paranormal consciousness is beyond them.
----
But there's a fine line. To a 3 year old, Mommy coming upstairs because you and your
friends suddenly got quiet is, like, the Amazing Kreskin. There are uninsightful
unobvservant people who don't pick up on vibes, and, for them, the extraction of any
information not specifically conveyed by someone's verbal output or explicit gestures is
mind boggling. To most people, some of the stuff that hits me seems surprising (though
not amazing). And there are people vastly more sensitive than I am...that's for sure.
Where on this slippery slope does it get paranormal? I think it's all paranormal....and none
is. As we learn in the higher levels of AYP, it's all about moving into subtlety, and that's
something asymptotic to infinity.
Maybe it doesn't lend itself easily to sitting in a lab and consistently guessing every card
that's been turned in a deck. But I don't think that's a benchmark - a higher state of
paranormalcy. I think it's just a certain way of manifesting it that people don't seem to be
able to do...or at least not the ones who've come forward (read Randi's site...only a few
hundred have applied over the years).
----
the obviously great and deeply important task of informing the world in this very, very
important matter.
-----
You keep saying this, but I frankly don't get it. Why's it a very very important matter that
some people are intuitive, et al? What responsibility am I shirking in not announcing to the
world around me that I get more information from people than they think? I developed my
intuition in real world experience, not spiritual practice. But if I did get some sort of power
from spiritual practice, I surely wouldn't deem that to validate my practice (it's NOT the
objective, it's a minor side effect!), nor would I use it as a recruitment tool to get people to
practice, because a ton of people doing yoga specifically for siddhis would be a negative
thing (there'd be at least some positive, too, because if they weren't total scoundrels to
begin with, the doing of the yoga would purify and transform them...but a critical mass of
people doing it for the wrong reason would self-reinforce, and spiritual materialism is
already a huge trap as-is).
1181 From: "david_obsidian1" <david_obsidian1@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:48pm
Subject: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters david_obsidian1
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>
> ----
> the obviously great and deeply important task of informing the
world in this very, very
> important matter.
> -----
>
> You keep saying this, but I frankly don't get it. Why's it a very
very important matter that
> some people are intuitive, et al? What responsibility am I
shirking in not announcing to the
> world around me that I get more information from people than they
think? I developed my
> intuition in real world experience, not spiritual practice. But if
I did get some sort of power
> from spiritual practice, I surely wouldn't deem that to validate
my practice (it's NOT the
> objective, it's a minor side effect!), nor would I use it as a
recruitment tool to get people to
> practice, because a ton of people doing yoga specifically for
siddhis would be a negative
> thing (there'd be at least some positive, too, because if they
weren't total scoundrels to
> begin with, the doing of the yoga would purify and transform
them...but a critical mass of
> people doing it for the wrong reason would self-reinforce, and
spiritual materialism is
> already a huge trap as-is).
Your answer suggests to me that we are into some communication
problems.
> Why's it a very very important matter that
> some people are intuitive, et al?
It isn't important at all to establish scientifically that some
people are intuitive. 'Science' has no trouble believing that. I'm
talking about the true paranormal stuff that people claim they can
do, and Science (<--- rough, makeshift label here) doesn't
believe them, and Science asks to see them before it believes. And
those people who claim they can do them do not show them to Science.
If someone can defy the law of gravitation at will, for example,
that fact is of deep importance to science. It cuts to the
fundamentals of what has been studied, and the universal theories to
which _no_exceptions_have_been_found. We spend billions every year
on this earth doing research into the fundamentals. Such a result
would be more important than anything that will come out of the
fundamental-science research institutes in the world. It would turn
everything on its head. It could lead into all sorts of new areas
of research and inquiry.
I've no issue with 'psychics' who know or understand that they are
operating from enhanced intuition. But why do they cultivate the
idea that they can do something paranormal that science cannot
explain, that is beyond any scientific explanation?
Their stance is not necessarily as innocent and pure as it seems.
If you take a posture of knowing something or having power that is
beyond the capacity of Science to explain or understand, Science is
going to ask you to explain yourself further or demonstrate the
accuracy of what you say.
What would you think of me if I showed up at a party and I quickly
got into telling you, 'Well, there are things about me, and what I
understand and see, and what I can do, that are beyond your
capacity to understand or explain'.
How would you describe my posture? Why would I be doing that?
Would I not probably be something of a posturer, a power-tripper, a
nut, trying to manouvre myself into a position above you?
(Sure enough, if I was one of those all-powerful-beings from the
Old Startrek who WAS at one with the 'Unified Field', it might be
true that 'Well, there are things about me, and what I understand
and see, and what I can do, that are beyond your capacity to
understand or explain' --- but then I wouldn't be both telling you
that AND failing to demonstrate to you that it was true (so that you
could know I was not a fraud) --- besides I should be at my own
parties in my own world, not trying to lord it over humans.)
Enhanced intuition is well within the bounds of scientific
explanation. Genuine astral travel and levitation are not. If
people have powers like this and can demonstrate them, that
demonstration would be a great gift to scientific understanding.
-David
1182 From: "Dave Moore" <riptiz@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 1:37pm
Subject: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters riptiz
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It isn't important and that is the point.Who cares if the next door
neighbour can walk on water.Without the work he put into it to develop
it nobody is going to get the same.I have found enhanced healing
abilities since starting KMY, greater energy channeling abilities,
distant psychic surgery, distant joint manipulation, full chakra
overhaul and grounding.Who cares?No one does unless they are looking
for ways of developing the abilities themselves.Guruji told me not to
heal others as unless you have the levels to maintain your energy, you
will find your life force being drained.I see this regularly with
healers who's energy systems are screwed.Do you think they care when I
gently try and explain to them why they are always tired, can't sleep
and ill.Of course not they simply want to do their own thing.It's no
point being jealous of anothers ability because we are not meant to be
in it for siddhis but for the path.
L&L
dave
1184 From: "david_obsidian1" <david_obsidian1@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 2:42pm
Subject: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters david_obsidian1
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--- "Dave Moore" <riptiz@h...> wrote:
> It isn't important and that is the point.Who cares if the next door
> neighbour can walk on water.
Absolutely agreed, Dave. It's not so important at all from the point
of view of spiritual practice.
It is important to a scientist though, and if we had better threading
on the board, (and some day hopefully we will have it), I'd have
carried out that discussion in the Science section of AYP, to keep it
out of the main channel. But for now, all of the discussion is in
the one bag and we can just ignore what isn't important to us.
Best regards,
-D
1177 From: "david_obsidian1" <david_obsidian1@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat Jul 2, 2005 9:29am
Subject: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters -- P.S. david_obsidian1
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> Discussion on various topics is a good thing, but I fear that this
> may become a circular argument and I hope we can let "the fray" rest
> with our own opinions intact in a respectful manner.
Hello Melissa,
Maybe my argumentative methods are far too harsh
sometimes. I take ideas by the horns and twist them hard, sometimes
very hard. Sometimes I could do a better job by softening my approach.
There was never anything disrespectful about any of it though.
Welcome here.
-D
1167 From: "Melissa" <mm7810@gmail.com>
Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 5:24pm
Subject: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters mm78102002
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Oh, and I forgot to add . . . my friend was put through a battery of
tests at Dartmouth [I think that is where it was] when she was 16.
[She is now 52]. She could read cards and other things from a
different room. They did extensive testing paranormal testing on
her. Sorry, I don't recall the exact details and she is out of the
country atm. Actually, I had probably better shut up now anyway!
;-)
Melissa
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "david_obsidian1"
<david_obsidian1@y...> wrote:
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa" <mm7810@g...> wrote:
> > Hello David and all -
> >
> > A good dose of skepticism is a good thing. However, I do have a
> > friend who is a 3rd degree initiate and quite psychic. I asked
her
> > once why she didn't try to go for the million and she said that
it
> > is been there for years and they go out of their way to
discredit
> > people.
>
> Hello Mellissa,
>
> it isn't actually true that they 'go out of their way to discredit
> people'. They merely require the 'powers' to be demonstrated
> conclusively. Imagine if I showed you a magic glass egg of a
> substance harder than any in the universe that can't possibly
break,
> and set up a machine of _my_making_ that tried to break the egg
and
> failed. Would you be convinced so far? And what if you asked if
you
> could use your own machine to test it, or merely have a chance to
> smash it with a hammer? And I said, ummmm, this egg is too
> precious to.... um --- or, dying gasp, that the world is not
ready
> to really see how strong this egg is --- would you still believe
me?
>
> Mellissa, the real truth is I think that the psychic in question
> knows that she cannot perform according to their standards of
test.
> Wouldn't she really * love * to be able to demonstrate to the
world
> that psychic powers exist, and maybe to have $1 million to divide
> between herself and her favorite charities?
>
> All right, there is an out --- that these powers cannot be called
> upon at will; in other words, they come to people on a purely
> according-to-need basis. I have no doubt that this person you
know
> is gifted --isn't there is also a possibility that she just has
> deeply enhanced intuition?
>
> Best regards,
>
> -David
1169 From: "david_obsidian1" <david_obsidian1@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 6:38pm
Subject: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters david_obsidian1
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Hello Melissa,
there were two phases in scientific study of the paranormal -- one
could be called the naive phase, and the other the post-naive phase.
There were many, many paranormal studies done further back in the naive
phase without proper controls. Scientists just weren't qualified to
test people, although they didn't know it; they needed the aid of
conjurors, who knew all about conjuring and were able to detect the way these scientists were being hoodwinked.
In the post-naive phase, once the fraud-detectors were brought on
the scene, everything changed. Many 'psychics' were caught in the
act of fraud by the conjurors, others mysteriously could no longer
perform, and soon the game was over --- 'psychics' stopped showing
up for the tests.
So there are no true proofs available. To make a metaphor,
the 'psychic' eggs still claim to be magically unbreakable, but they
stay away from the real hammers for some reason, though they had no
problem facing the soft, spongy fake hammers some time ago --- and
have no problem letting you know about it, especially if you don't
realize that those hammers were soft and spongy. Now it seems, when
the real hammers are around, that they really don't feel the need to
prove their unbreakability any more.
Hmmmmmm.... looks dodgy to me.....
-D
--- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa" <mm7810@g...> wrote:
> Oh, and I forgot to add . . . my friend was put through a battery
of
> tests at Dartmouth [I think that is where it was] when she was 16.
> [She is now 52]. She could read cards and other things from a
> different room. They did extensive testing paranormal testing on
> her. Sorry, I don't recall the exact details and she is out of the
> country atm. Actually, I had probably better shut up now anyway!
> ;-)
>
> Melissa
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "david_obsidian1"
> <david_obsidian1@y...> wrote:
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa" <mm7810@g...> wrote:
> > > Hello David and all -
> > >
> > > A good dose of skepticism is a good thing. However, I do have
a
> > > friend who is a 3rd degree initiate and quite psychic. I asked
> her
> > > once why she didn't try to go for the million and she said that
> it
> > > is been there for years and they go out of their way to
> discredit
> > > people.
> >
> > Hello Mellissa,
> >
> > it isn't actually true that they 'go out of their way to
discredit
> > people'. They merely require the 'powers' to be demonstrated
> > conclusively. Imagine if I showed you a magic glass egg of a
> > substance harder than any in the universe that can't possibly
> break,
> > and set up a machine of _my_making_ that tried to break the egg
> and
> > failed. Would you be convinced so far? And what if you asked if
> you
> > could use your own machine to test it, or merely have a chance
to
> > smash it with a hammer? And I said, ummmm, this egg is too
> > precious to.... um --- or, dying gasp, that the world is not
> ready
> > to really see how strong this egg is --- would you still believe
> me?
> >
> > Mellissa, the real truth is I think that the psychic in question
> > knows that she cannot perform according to their standards of
> test.
> > Wouldn't she really * love * to be able to demonstrate to the
> world
> > that psychic powers exist, and maybe to have $1 million to
divide
> > between herself and her favorite charities?
> >
> > All right, there is an out --- that these powers cannot be
called
> > upon at will; in other words, they come to people on a purely
> > according-to-need basis. I have no doubt that this person you
> know
> > is gifted --isn't there is also a possibility that she just has
> > deeply enhanced intuition?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > -David
1163 From: "jim_and_his_karma" <jim_and_his_karma@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 2:41pm
Subject: Re: Siddhis and the Randi Prize jim_and_his_...
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----
I suspect that there are likely more souls such as this - perhaps in India - that do not
readily demonstrate siddhis to observers.
----
I have pretty good intuition - what they call street sense (as, I'm sure, do some of you). I
generally can tell quite a bit about people I meet. I don't think I'm psychic or have any
siddhis or anything, and am no kind of prospect for the Randi prize. It's a minor but
helpful thing. But the thing is that I'm careful to ensure that very few people know. I've
learned to mostly keep the information I get to myself. Because to do otherwise never
helps me or the other person. It only creates discomfort and weirdness, I've learned over
time.
So if I, no advanced soul (I'm not yet above profit, seduction, and all the rest) and with my
half-assed micro-siddhi, have learned to keep this to myself rather than flaunt it, wiser
souls with greater powers and deeper commitment surely do so even more firmly.
Various reasons why no one's claimed the Randi Prize:
1. Those with real power tend not to want/need to show off or profit. The greater the
power, the greater the reluctance.
2. people in caves in India never heard of James Randi. They do, however, know about the
Hindu fakir circuit, which for a real yogi is the equivalent of going on The
Surreal Life or getting into Pro Wrestling. There's social aversion, in other words, in
addition to the spiritual aversion, for broadcasting one's siddhis if you're for real.
3. the milieu in which siddhis are used is the real world, as compared to the contrived and
artificial laboratory setting where they test Randi prize contestants. Back to my half-assed
intution: I'm pretty sure that if you introduced
me to twenty people in a natural setting like a cocktail party, I can, using my street smarts,
tell you
which is violent, which is trustworthy, etc, and mostly get it right. I can't imagine doing
very well in an artificially structured cold lab situation where all parties are
aware of the endeavor, and clever people are working overtime to staunch the flow of
subliminal corollary information (i.e. dressing those twenty fully-informed people in a
black jumpsuit and giving them all a shave) that's a part of how I manage to know what I
know.
Your claim, in other words, to be the world's greatest kisser, will likely be foiled (even if
they're true!) when you confront a mechanical kissing robot to scientificaly validate your
claim.
4. As another poster said, if you fail Randi's test, they do everything possible to discredit
and humiliate you publicly. And, per above, a). siddhis may not work 100% of the time,
and b). nobody has any kind of life experience navigating contrived laboratory obstacle
courses designed by a bunch of magicians defending their million bucks, so it's quite a
risk indeed.
That said, the lack of winners does demonstrate at least one thing for sure: there are tons
and tons and tons of fakes out there. Because if everyone was psychic who claimed to be,
the prize would have been won long ago, in spite of the above, just from sheer volume.
And the thing that bugs me is astral projection. Artififcial lab setting or not, if you can
psychically travel to the next room, you know what the four digit number scrawled on the
wall is, period. And if you don't, then it's b.s.. It's so cut and dried that I'm amazed that
people claim the power at all anymore.
1147 From: "andyzz_2002" <andysun3@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 5:19am
Subject: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters andyzz_2002
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Hi,
Just to say that there is some validated (scientific)research with
tibetan tummmo practitioners. Herbert Benson carried this out. They
can raise body temperature and dry icy sheets on there bodies in
very low temperatures (this would cause hypothermia in a non
practitiioner) They can also reduce their metabolic rate to an
unheard of low. It was hard enough for Benson to persuade the monks
to submit themselves to a scientific study, they would not have done
it for show or money.
check out
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.htmlAlso I believe some yogis have stopped thier hearts and held breath
for extended periods. One was Swami Anandakapila Saraswati who was a
subject in a study, but I have no details.
look foward to any more stories
AW
>
> I'm going to say something a little controversial.
>
> I don't believe there is a person on the planet today who has such
> abilities. The reason I don't believe there is, is that if there
> were, they could demonstrate it to the world very easily and in a
> manner which leaves no doubt in the scientific community,
> establishes it as scientific fact, and thus greatly enhance world
> consciousness of this very important matter. And they can easily
> collect $1 million in the process, because there is a challenge
out
> there to demonstrate such powers, and if you meet the challenge,
> the $1 million is yours for the taking.
>
> Of course, you have to _demonstrate_it in a way which leaves no
> doubt in the scientific community, and that is very, very,
very,
> hard for people who don't have these powers, but would be very,
> very easy for people who do.
>
> To demonstrate it in a way that would convince the scientific
> community, one would have to get past the fraud-detecting powers
of
> the likes of James Randi, who is a magician who has specialized in
> exposing fraudsters. If you get past him, you get the million.
>
> But never mind the million --- just imagine the great contribution
> to world consciousness.... the elevation of science.
>
> The challenge has been there for some years now. No-one steps up
to
> the plate. There are thousands of people on the world today,
eager
> that you believe that they have psychic powers, but who avoid the
> challenge of proving to you in a properly conclusive way that they
> do.
>
> They are conjuring tricks.
>
> Think it over.
>
> Best regards,
>
> -David
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "babaji_krishna"
> <babaji_krishna@h...> wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > I am writing to ask if there is anyone out there who has ever met
> a
> > yoga/nei gung master that can demonstrate at will their siddhis.
> For
> > those of you that may not know the term Nei Gung it is a Chinese
> > term that essentailly means internal skill. From reading about
Nei
> > Gung the training seems very similar to yoga. There maybe some
> > differences in technique or focus but the end result is the same.
> > Some of the siddhis I am refering to are levitation, leaving no
> > footprints over snow( higher levels walk on water), able to send
> > prana or chi to another person to heal. Able to send prana in a
> > focuses manner to start a fire, etc.
> > I have heard of stories of such men or women but have nver
> > experienced such things. I was wondering if there was anyone out
> > there who can share some stories or actually know of any humans
> whom
> > they have actually physically met and seen these things at first
> > hand.
> > Although I agree that the siddhis are a result of practise and
> > mastery over such things as pranayama and meditation, it does
give
> a
> > physical check as to the level of the practitioner. Many people
> can
> > calim they are yogis. Unfortunately it seems that modern yoga has
> > been much about asana and not about anything else. Very few yogis
> > that teach yoga can heal someone from a distance, disperse your
> > negative karma, see your internal body, offer you guidance into
> the
> > subtleties of your internal enregy.
> > One of the other very important things is how does one know
> > themselves when they are ready to progress to the next step of
> > training. This can I believe be only done by a yogi/nei gung
> master.
> > I look forward to hearing from anyone about their fantastic
> stories.
1149 From: Randy Callaway <randycallaway@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 8:21am
Subject: Re: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters randycallaway
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The reason they can dry icy sheets on the body in tibet is the extreme elevation creates extreme dryness in the air. Any wet material evaporates and dries almost immediately. All they do is tolerate the chill for a minute or two.
andyzz_2002 <andysun3@hotmail.com> wrote:Hi,
Just to say that there is some validated (scientific)research with
tibetan tummmo practitioners. Herbert Benson carried this out. They
can raise body temperature and dry icy sheets on there bodies in
very low temperatures (this would cause hypothermia in a non
practitiioner) They can also reduce their metabolic rate to an
unheard of low. It was hard enough for Benson to persuade the monks
to submit themselves to a scientific study, they would not have done
it for show or money.
check out
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.htmlAlso I believe some yogis have stopped thier hearts and held breath
for extended periods. One was Swami Anandakapila Saraswati who was a
subject in a study, but I have no details.
look foward to any more stories
AW
>
> I'm going to say something a little controversial.
>
> I don't believe there is a person on the planet today who has such
> abilities. The reason I don't believe there is, is that if there
> were, they could demonstrate it to the world very easily and in a
> manner which leaves no doubt in the scientific community,
> establishes it as scientific fact, and thus greatly enhance world
> consciousness of this very important matter. And they can easily
> collect $1 million in the process, because there is a challenge
out
> there to demonstrate such powers, and if you meet the challenge,
> the $1 million is yours for the taking.
>
> Of course, you have to _demonstrate_it in a way which leaves no
> doubt in the scientific community, and that is very, very,
very,
> hard for people who don't have these powers, but would be very,
> very easy for people who do.
>
> To demonstrate it in a way that would convince the scientific
> community, one would have to get past the fraud-detecting powers
of
> the likes of James Randi, who is a magician who has specialized in
> exposing fraudsters. If you get past him, you get the million.
>
> But never mind the million --- just imagine the great contribution
> to world consciousness.... the elevation of science.
>
> The challenge has been there for some years now. No-one steps up
to
> the plate. There are thousands of people on the world today,
eager
> that you believe that they have psychic powers, but who avoid the
> challenge of proving to you in a properly conclusive way that they
> do.
>
> They are conjuring tricks.
>
> Think it over.
>
> Best regards,
>
> -David
>
>
> --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "babaji_krishna"
> <babaji_krishna@h...> wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > I am writing to ask if there is anyone out there who has ever met
> a
> > yoga/nei gung master that can demonstrate at will their siddhis.
> For
> > those of you that may not know the term Nei Gung it is a Chinese
> > term that essentailly means internal skill. From reading about
Nei
> > Gung the training seems very similar to yoga. There maybe some
> > differences in technique or focus but the end result is the same.
> > Some of the siddhis I am refering to are levitation, leaving no
> > footprints over snow( higher levels walk on water), able to send
> > prana or chi to another person to heal. Able to send prana in a
> > focuses manner to start a fire, etc.
> > I have heard of stories of such men or women but have nver
> > experienced such things. I was wondering if there was anyone out
> > there who can share some stories or actually know of any humans
> whom
> > they have actually physically met and seen these things at first
> > hand.
> > Although I agree that the siddhis are a result of practise and
> > mastery over such things as pranayama and meditation, it does
give
> a
> > physical check as to the level of the practitioner. Many people
> can
> > calim they are yogis. Unfortunately it seems that modern yoga has
> > been much about asana and not about anything else. Very few yogis
> > that teach yoga can heal someone from a distance, disperse your
> > negative karma, see your internal body, offer you guidance into
> the
> > subtleties of your internal enregy.
> > One of the other very important things is how does one know
> > themselves when they are ready to progress to the next step of
> > training. This can I believe be only done by a yogi/nei gung
> master.
> > I look forward to hearing from anyone about their fantastic
> stories.
For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices --
To change your email delivery to "daily digest," send a blank email to:
AYPforum-digest@yahoogroups.com --
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1150 From: "andyzz_2002" <andysun3@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 9:16am
Subject: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters andyzz_2002
Offline
Send Email
Interesting comment, however they spend longer than a few minutes in
the cold. Their attainnment is measured by spending the whole night
drying sheets not just a few minutes. Please research and you'll
find it to be true. Also Benson had them replicate this by drying
sheets in a very cold room at ground level, they could also raise the
temperature of extremities by up to 17 degrees celcius, quite
remarkable and a true siddhi. Generating this heat is a biproduct of
their spiritual practice not the goal, anyone interested in training
in it can do so through the Palyul Buddhist organisation amongst
others, its a long training tho.
> The reason they can dry icy sheets on the body in tibet is the
extreme elevation creates extreme dryness in the air. Any wet
material evaporates and dries almost immediately. All they do is
tolerate the chill for a minute or two.
>
> andyzz_2002 <andysun3@h...> wrote:Hi,
> Just to say that there is some validated (scientific)research with
> tibetan tummmo practitioners. Herbert Benson carried this out. They
> can raise body temperature and dry icy sheets on there bodies in
> very low temperatures (this would cause hypothermia in a non
> practitiioner) They can also reduce their metabolic rate to an
> unheard of low. It was hard enough for Benson to persuade the monks
> to submit themselves to a scientific study, they would not have
done
> it for show or money.
>
> check out
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html
>
> Also I believe some yogis have stopped thier hearts and held breath
> for extended periods. One was Swami Anandakapila Saraswati who was
a
> subject in a study, but I have no details.
>
> look foward to any more stories
>
> AW
> >
> > I'm going to say something a little controversial.
> >
> > I don't believe there is a person on the planet today who has
such
> > abilities. The reason I don't believe there is, is that if
there
> > were, they could demonstrate it to the world very easily and in
a
> > manner which leaves no doubt in the scientific community,
> > establishes it as scientific fact, and thus greatly enhance
world
> > consciousness of this very important matter. And they can easily
> > collect $1 million in the process, because there is a challenge
> out
> > there to demonstrate such powers, and if you meet the challenge,
> > the $1 million is yours for the taking.
> >
> > Of course, you have to _demonstrate_it in a way which leaves no
> > doubt in the scientific community, and that is very, very,
> very,
> > hard for people who don't have these powers, but would be very,
> > very easy for people who do.
> >
> > To demonstrate it in a way that would convince the scientific
> > community, one would have to get past the fraud-detecting powers
> of
> > the likes of James Randi, who is a magician who has specialized
in
> > exposing fraudsters. If you get past him, you get the million.
> >
> > But never mind the million --- just imagine the great
contribution
> > to world consciousness.... the elevation of science.
> >
> > The challenge has been there for some years now. No-one steps up
> to
> > the plate. There are thousands of people on the world today,
> eager
> > that you believe that they have psychic powers, but who avoid
the
> > challenge of proving to you in a properly conclusive way that
they
> > do.
> >
> > They are conjuring tricks.
> >
> > Think it over.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > -David
> >
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "babaji_krishna"
> > <babaji_krishna@h...> wrote:
> > > Hi All,
> > > I am writing to ask if there is anyone out there who has ever
met
> > a
> > > yoga/nei gung master that can demonstrate at will their
siddhis.
> > For
> > > those of you that may not know the term Nei Gung it is a
Chinese
> > > term that essentailly means internal skill. From reading about
> Nei
> > > Gung the training seems very similar to yoga. There maybe some
> > > differences in technique or focus but the end result is the
same.
> > > Some of the siddhis I am refering to are levitation, leaving no
> > > footprints over snow( higher levels walk on water), able to
send
> > > prana or chi to another person to heal. Able to send prana in a
> > > focuses manner to start a fire, etc.
> > > I have heard of stories of such men or women but have nver
> > > experienced such things. I was wondering if there was anyone
out
> > > there who can share some stories or actually know of any humans
> > whom
> > > they have actually physically met and seen these things at
first
> > > hand.
> > > Although I agree that the siddhis are a result of practise and
> > > mastery over such things as pranayama and meditation, it does
> give
> > a
> > > physical check as to the level of the practitioner. Many people
> > can
> > > calim they are yogis. Unfortunately it seems that modern yoga
has
> > > been much about asana and not about anything else. Very few
yogis
> > > that teach yoga can heal someone from a distance, disperse your
> > > negative karma, see your internal body, offer you guidance into
> > the
> > > subtleties of your internal enregy.
> > > One of the other very important things is how does one know
> > > themselves when they are ready to progress to the next step of
> > > training. This can I believe be only done by a yogi/nei gung
> > master.
> > > I look forward to hearing from anyone about their fantastic
> > stories.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
>
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices --
> To change your email delivery to "daily digest," send a blank email
to:
> AYPforum-digest@yahoogroups.com --
> To stop email delivery and use "web viewing only," send a blank
email to:
> AYPforum-nomail@yahoogroups.com --
> To resume "individual email delivery," send a blank email to:
> AYPforum-normal@yahoogroups.com
> You can also make these changes in "Edit my Membership" on the
group home page.
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Yoga practice Philosophy of education Yoga clothing Yoga video
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "AYPforum" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AYPforum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
1154 From: Randy Callaway <randycallaway@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 10:25am
Subject: Re: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters randycallaway
Offline
Send Email
And an interersting response. What I'd be interested in would be a comparison of drying times of sheets on their body and off their body in that climate and elevation. Also a cold room at sea level also is dry, a byproduct of coldness. What was the humidity in the room that Benson used. I know raising temperature isn't the goal, only a byproduct. Where can I find online this study Benson did, I'd like to see his methodology. By the was, I'm not in any way a skeptic on physiological responses to spiritual disiplines, but I know there is a lot of nonsensical explanations for things that have purely scientific explanations.
andyzz_2002 <andysun3@hotmail.com> wrote:Interesting comment, however they spend longer than a few minutes in
the cold. Their attainnment is measured by spending the whole night
drying sheets not just a few minutes. Please research and you'll
find it to be true. Also Benson had them replicate this by drying
sheets in a very cold room at ground level, they could also raise the
temperature of extremities by up to 17 degrees celcius, quite
remarkable and a true siddhi. Generating this heat is a biproduct of
their spiritual practice not the goal, anyone interested in training
in it can do so through the Palyul Buddhist organisation amongst
others, its a long training tho.
> The reason they can dry icy sheets on the body in tibet is the
extreme elevation creates extreme dryness in the air. Any wet
material evaporates and dries almost immediately. All they do is
tolerate the chill for a minute or two.
>
> andyzz_2002 <andysun3@h...> wrote:Hi,
> Just to say that there is some validated (scientific)research with
> tibetan tummmo practitioners. Herbert Benson carried this out. They
> can raise body temperature and dry icy sheets on there bodies in
> very low temperatures (this would cause hypothermia in a non
> practitiioner) They can also reduce their metabolic rate to an
> unheard of low. It was hard enough for Benson to persuade the monks
> to submit themselves to a scientific study, they would not have
done
> it for show or money.
>
> check out
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html
>
> Also I believe some yogis have stopped thier hearts and held breath
> for extended periods. One was Swami Anandakapila Saraswati who was
a
> subject in a study, but I have no details.
>
> look foward to any more stories
>
> AW
> >
> > I'm going to say something a little controversial.
> >
> > I don't believe there is a person on the planet today who has
such
> > abilities. The reason I don't believe there is, is that if
there
> > were, they could demonstrate it to the world very easily and in
a
> > manner which leaves no doubt in the scientific community,
> > establishes it as scientific fact, and thus greatly enhance
world
> > consciousness of this very important matter. And they can easily
> > collect $1 million in the process, because there is a challenge
> out
> > there to demonstrate such powers, and if you meet the challenge,
> > the $1 million is yours for the taking.
> >
> > Of course, you have to _demonstrate_it in a way which leaves no
> > doubt in the scientific community, and that is very, very,
> very,
> > hard for people who don't have these powers, but would be very,
> > very easy for people who do.
> >
> > To demonstrate it in a way that would convince the scientific
> > community, one would have to get past the fraud-detecting powers
> of
> > the likes of James Randi, who is a magician who has specialized
in
> > exposing fraudsters. If you get past him, you get the million.
> >
> > But never mind the million --- just imagine the great
contribution
> > to world consciousness.... the elevation of science.
> >
> > The challenge has been there for some years now. No-one steps up
> to
> > the plate. There are thousands of people on the world today,
> eager
> > that you believe that they have psychic powers, but who avoid
the
> > challenge of proving to you in a properly conclusive way that
they
> > do.
> >
> > They are conjuring tricks.
> >
> > Think it over.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > -David
> >
> >
> > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "babaji_krishna"
> > <babaji_krishna@h...> wrote:
> > > Hi All,
> > > I am writing to ask if there is anyone out there who has ever
met
> > a
> > > yoga/nei gung master that can demonstrate at will their
siddhis.
> > For
> > > those of you that may not know the term Nei Gung it is a
Chinese
> > > term that essentailly means internal skill. From reading about
> Nei
> > > Gung the training seems very similar to yoga. There maybe some
> > > differences in technique or focus but the end result is the
same.
> > > Some of the siddhis I am refering to are levitation, leaving no
> > > footprints over snow( higher levels walk on water), able to
send
> > > prana or chi to another person to heal. Able to send prana in a
> > > focuses manner to start a fire, etc.
> > > I have heard of stories of such men or women but have nver
> > > experienced such things. I was wondering if there was anyone
out
> > > there who can share some stories or actually know of any humans
> > whom
> > > they have actually physically met and seen these things at
first
> > > hand.
> > > Although I agree that the siddhis are a result of practise and
> > > mastery over such things as pranayama and meditation, it does
> give
> > a
> > > physical check as to the level of the practitioner. Many people
> > can
> > > calim they are yogis. Unfortunately it seems that modern yoga
has
> > > been much about asana and not about anything else. Very few
yogis
> > > that teach yoga can heal someone from a distance, disperse your
> > > negative karma, see your internal body, offer you guidance into
> > the
> > > subtleties of your internal enregy.
> > > One of the other very important things is how does one know
> > > themselves when they are ready to progress to the next step of
> > > training. This can I believe be only done by a yogi/nei gung
> > master.
> > > I look forward to hearing from anyone about their fantastic
> > stories.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
>
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices --
> To change your email delivery to "daily digest," send a blank email
to:
> AYPforum-digest@yahoogroups.com --
> To stop email delivery and use "web viewing only," send a blank
email to:
> AYPforum-nomail@yahoogroups.com --
> To resume "individual email delivery," send a blank email to:
> AYPforum-normal@yahoogroups.com
> You can also make these changes in "Edit my Membership" on the
group home page.
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Yoga practice Philosophy of education Yoga clothing Yoga video
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "AYPforum" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> AYPforum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
For the AYP Lessons and Books, go to:
http://www.geocities.com/advancedyogapractices --
To change your email delivery to "daily digest," send a blank email to:
AYPforum-digest@yahoogroups.com --
To stop email delivery and use "web viewing only," send a blank email to:
AYPforum-nomail@yahoogroups.com --
To resume "individual email delivery," send a blank email to:
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You can also make these changes in "Edit my Membership" on the group home page.
---------------------------------
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Visit your group "AYPforum" on the web.
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AYPforum-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
1156 From: "andyzz_2002" <andysun3@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri Jul 1, 2005 10:56am
Subject: Re: Nei Gung Masters/Yoga masters andyzz_2002
Offline
Send Email
Hi,
Not sure where the full paper is published online, but its quite a
famous study by Dr Herbert Benson in conjuction with Harvard Medical
School so it must be available somewhere, to my knowledge it hasnt
been discredited. As far as I know the tummo practice involves a
breath retention pranayama called vase breathing combined with
visualisation..its origins can be found in kundalini yoga practices.
I too maintain an open mind with a healthy scepticism.
Best wishes
> And an interersting response. What I'd be interested in would be a
comparison of drying times of sheets on their body and off their body
in that climate and elevation. Also a cold room at sea level also is
dry, a byproduct of coldness. What was the humidity in the room that
Benson used. I know raising temperature isn't the goal, only a
byproduct. Where can I find online this study Benson did, I'd like to
see his methodology. By the was, I'm not in any way a skeptic on
physiological responses to spiritual disiplines, but I know there is
a lot of nonsensical explanations for things that have purely
scientific explanations.
>
> andyzz_2002 <andysun3@h...> wrote:Interesting comment, however they
spend longer than a few minutes in
> the cold. Their attainnment is measured by spending the whole night
> drying sheets not just a few minutes. Please research and you'll
> find it to be true. Also Benson had them replicate this by drying
> sheets in a very cold room at ground level, they could also raise
the
> temperature of extremities by up to 17 degrees celcius, quite
> remarkable and a true siddhi. Generating this heat is a biproduct
of
> their spiritual practice not the goal, anyone interested in
training
> in it can do so through the Palyul Buddhist organisation amongst
> others, its a long training tho.
>
> > The reason they can dry icy sheets on the body in tibet is the
> extreme elevation creates extreme dryness in the air. Any wet
> material evaporates and dries almost immediately. All they do is
> tolerate the chill for a minute or two.
> >
> > andyzz_2002 <andysun3@h...> wrote:Hi,
> > Just to say that there is some validated (scientific)research
with
> > tibetan tummmo practitioners. Herbert Benson carried this out.
They
> > can raise body temperature and dry icy sheets on there bodies in
> > very low temperatures (this would cause hypothermia in a non
> > practitiioner) They can also reduce their metabolic rate to an
> > unheard of low. It was hard enough for Benson to persuade the
monks
> > to submit themselves to a scientific study, they would not have
> done
> > it for show or money.
> >
> > check out
http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-> tummo.html
> >
> > Also I believe some yogis have stopped thier hearts and held
breath
> > for extended periods. One was Swami Anandakapila Saraswati who
was
> a
> > subject in a study, but I have no details.
> >
> > look foward to any more stories
> >
> > AW
> > >
> > > I'm going to say something a little controversial.
> > >
> > > I don't believe there is a person on the planet today who has
> such
> > > abilities. The reason I don't believe there is, is that if
> there
> > > were, they could demonstrate it to the world very easily and
in
> a
> > > manner which leaves no doubt in the scientific community,
> > > establishes it as scientific fact, and thus greatly enhance
> world
> > > consciousness of this very important matter. And they can
easily
> > > collect $1 million in the process, because there is a
challenge
> > out
> > > there to demonstrate such powers, and if you meet the
challenge,
> > > the $1 million is yours for the taking.
> > >
> > > Of course, you have to _demonstrate_it in a way which leaves
no
> > > doubt in the scientific community, and that is very, very,
> > very,
> > > hard for people who don't have these powers, but would be
very,
> > > very easy for people who do.
> > >
> > > To demonstrate it in a way that would convince the scientific
> > > community, one would have to get past the fraud-detecting
powers
> > of
> > > the likes of James Randi, who is a magician who has
specialized
> in
> > > exposing fraudsters. If you get past him, you get the million.
> > >
> > > But never mind the million --- just imagine the great
> contribution
> > > to world consciousness.... the elevation of science.
> > >
> > > The challenge has been there for some years now. No-one steps
up
> > to
> > > the plate. There are thousands of people on the world today,
> > eager
> > > that you believe that they have psychic powers, but who avoid
> the
> > > challenge of proving to you in a properly conclusive way that
> they
> > > do.
> > >
> > > They are conjuring tricks.
> > >
> > > Think it over.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > -David
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In AYPforum@yahoogroups.com, "babaji_krishna"
> > > <babaji_krishna@h...> wrote:
> > > > Hi All,
> > > > I am writing to ask if there is anyone out there who has ever
> met
> > > a
> >
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