AYP Public Forum
AYP Public Forum => Other Systems and Alternate Approaches => Topic started by: Philip on December 22, 2006, 12:49:18 AM
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Moderator note: The following discussion was originally split off from this topic on Dec 24, 2006: http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1820
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Concerning the back-fitting of scriptures. I could not disagree more on this point. All the scriptures are written in code, and only those who know the ciphers can read this correctly. What is being taught today by mainstream religions, almost without exception, is totally dead and devoid of real understanding. This is because the supposed experts do not possess the knowledge (gnosis, daath, jana, etc.) that is needed in order to properly assimilate and teach those looking of spiritual guidance.
Now, at first the Christians had this knowledge, yet, eventually lost it. The entire Bible was written by those who knew the Kabbalah, yet, today that knowledge is thrown out as hogwash. No one can understand the Bible, especially Genesis and Revelations without deep kabbalistic understandings.
To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not hear. – Luke 8:10
I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able. – 1 Cor 3:2
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. – Matthew 13:11
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. – Luke 8:10
We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. – John 3:11
It is impossible to bring souls into the Light without the Mysteries of the Light-kingdom. – Jesus, The Pistis Sophia
It so happens to be that such yogis as Sri Yukteswar and especially Lahiri Mahasaya knew the correct ways to interpret the scriptures, because they were highly exalted by God. And many others as well, such as Sivananda, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna..
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quote:
Originally posted by Athma_Shakti:
"....open mind is very important in any type of learning by inquiring or exploring and taking the positive points, but the inquiring should not be exploited or used as a tool for degrading the teachings of great spiritual giants like Jesus Christ."
Thank you, Athma!
I totally agree with your comment here. And I would like to add that, in my humble opinion, denigrating the person of Jesus at anytime, but especially during the Christmas Season, reflects unconcealable spiritual immaturity combined with an unusually poor discernment of appropriate personal expression! [:I] [V]
Hari OM!
Doc
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
"What is being taught today by mainstream religions, almost without exception, is totally dead and devoid of real understanding."
More Horse Apples! Nothing could be more erroneous or further from the truth. Such views are typically expressed by 'outsiders' looking in....without having had the experiential benefits of personal initiation and the illumination of advanced religious instruction. As a result, derogatory opinions of this kind...professed by persons who obviously don't have the 'inside scoop' on things...are of no real value, IMO! [|)] It's a dead issue. [xx(]
Hari OM!
Doc
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Philip said:
Concerning the back-fitting of scriptures. I could not disagree more on this point
Philip, good for you. You disagree with me 100%, and feel free to post. And you should. I welcome your disagreement, am glad you feel free to post it, and hope you continue to feel free to post it. [;)]
athma_shakti said:
But the inquiring should not be exploited or used as a tool for degrading the teachings of great spiritual giants like Jesus Christ.
At the same time, we are not a Christian forum, though Christians are of course free to post here. So people are free to have their own opinion on whether Jesus Christ was a great spiritual giant, and also on the quality of his teachings and that of other spiritual figures.
Of course, people should make an effort to be sensitive in the way they express disagreement with other people's cherished beliefs -- if you want bad example on that, look at me, but I'm getting better. [;)] But there is no tolerance without tolerance of expression of disagreement.
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Maybe if you watch this video you will see differently...
Sex: The Secret Gate to Eden
http://www.gnosticstore.org/servlet/Detail?no=110
I have seen this video and I think it is very good.
I do not know how can someone say they understand the Bible if they do not understand Kabbalah. That seems quite absurd to me. We should know, for example, that the four gospels each teach a specifically about different sephorioth, namely: Malkuth, Yesod, Hod, and the Netzach, which is in relationship to the physical, vital, astral and mental bodies.
Best regards!
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Namaste David!
We are in complete agreement on that. [^] Very well stated! [:)]
Kudos and props to you as well, David, for your many significant strides in positive self-growth and enhanced personal diplomacy....especially in such a brief period of time. [:0] That's very cool! [8D] And most impressive indeed! [:D]
Hari OM!
Doc
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Kudos and props to you as well, David, for your many significant strides in positive self-growth and enhanced personal diplomacy
I suppose the two sides of the coin in terms of this diplomacy are (i) Being slow to take offense at mere disagreement and contrary views (ii) working on being easy to take for people with cherished beliefs.
I've worked on (ii) over time, but I haven't needed to work on (i) at all, because I've always had it here on the forum. What we need now is someone who needs to work on (i) and does. Then they could join me in a dual showcase of success.
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Hello, David:
Well, I for one sincerely hope that such a person joins in your 'Showcase of Success', as I would hate to see you become a 'Rebel Without A Cause! [:D] And I certainly hope that you weren't expecting ME to join you. LOL [;)]
Hari OM!
Doc
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Hi Philip and welcome to the forum!
quote:
Concerning the back-fitting of scriptures. I could not disagree more on this point. All the scriptures are written in code, and only those who know the ciphers can read this correctly.
I would agree with you here. Someone with highly illuminated knowledge could fairly easily understand the true meaning of ancient scripture, and explain it's true significance. After all, it was (hopefully) written originally by someone in an equally highly illuminated mind state.
quote:
Philip wrote:
What is being taught today by mainstream religions, almost without exception, is totally dead and devoid of real understanding. This is because the supposed experts do not possess the knowledge (gnosis, daath, jana, etc.) that is needed in order to properly assimilate and teach those looking of spiritual guidance.
We could say that a lot of what is being taught today under the name of religion is dead and devoid of real understanding. As you rightly point out, there are people of high spiritual realization who are holding up the lamp, so to speak, in a world of darkness. You name a few from the Eastern traditions, but I am sure there are also many individuals from the various Western traditions who are equal in their knowledge and teaching of spiritual matters.
quote:
Now, at first the Christians had this knowledge, yet, eventually lost it. The entire Bible was written by those who knew the Kabbalah, yet, today that knowledge is thrown out as hogwash. No one can understand the Bible, especially Genesis and Revelations without deep kabbalistic understandings.
This is very interesting. Of course, the old testament was a Jewish texts (or made up out of a large collection of Jewish texts), and the kabbalah was the principal teaching in the esoteric aspect of the Jewish religion. So what you say makes sense there. And as I understand things, Jesus studied with the Essenes in the Qumran dessert, a mystery school based on the teachings of the Gnostics. And where did the Gnostics get their ideas from? Probably at least partially from the Kabbalah. So what you say would make a lot of sense in reference to the new testament also.
What you say about Genesis and Revelations is very interesting. I have been trying to "decipher" this stuff for a long time and have never got very far. I say decipher because, as you say, it is obviously highly encoded (or at least symbolic). I had got to the point where I realized that the Kabbalah is at the heart of a lot of it.
quote:
I do not know how can someone say they understand the Bible if they do not understand Kabbalah. That seems quite absurd to me. We should know, for example, that the four gospels each teach a specifically about different sephorioth, namely: Malkuth, Yesod, Hod, and the Netzach, which is in relationship to the physical, vital, astral and mental bodies.
Fascinating. If this is true, it is an incredible statement. I had realized that Jesus's teachings are (mostly) on two levels, the profane and the spiritual. And I had realized that John seemed to be writing in a kind of "spiritual illuminated realm" kind of way, but it had never occurred to me that the four gospels could line up so exactly with the four lower bodies.
I am only on a dial-up connection so unfortunately could not watch the video link that you posted. Do you have any links to websites that help people understand the bible based on an understanding of the kabbalah?
Christi
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Doc said: And I certainly hope that you weren't expecting ME to join you. LOL
Reformed sinners are always so much more inspiring and exciting than always-saints. [8D] I mean look at Etherfish -- he came here with both (i) and (ii). BO-RING! Not to mention Yogani, BO-O-O-RING!
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Gnosticism, in each of its many cleverly fabricated versions, has consistently been rejected by the Orthodox Christian Faith as a heresy from the time of gnosticism's initial appearance nearly 1,800 years ago. And in turn, it has also been rejected by most other Christian church denominations since then, finding both the gnostic doctrine and the methods based upon it to be erroneous and objectionable. [xx(] [V]
Here are a couple of summary overviews of gnosticism for those who are unfamiliar with the spiritual philosophy it represents:
http://www.savior-of-all.com/gnosticism.html
http://grailchurch.org/gnostic_heresy.htm
And here is the famous defining written response to gnosticism by St. Irenaeus of Lyons, entitles 'Against Heresies':
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book1.html
Hari OM!
Doc
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quote:
The word 'Gnosticism' is a modern construction, though based on an antiquated linguistic expression: it comes from the Greek word meaning 'knowledge', gnosis (ãí#8182;óéò). However, gnosis itself refers to a very specialised form of knowledge, deriving both from the exact meaning of the original Greek term and its usage in Platonist philosophy.
Unlike modern English, ancient Greek was capable of discerning between several different forms of knowing. These different forms may be described in English as being propositional knowledge, indicative of knowledge acquired indirectly through the reports of others or otherwise by inference (such as "I know of George Bush" or "I know Berlin is in Germany"), and empirical knowledge acquired by direct participation or acquaintance (such as "I know George Bush personally" or "I know Berlin, having visited").
Gnosis (ãí#8182;óéò) refers to knowledge of the second kind. Therefore, in a religious context, to be 'Gnostic' should be understood as being reliant not on knowledge in a general sense, but as being specially receptive to mystical or esoteric experiences of direct participation with the divine. Indeed, in most Gnostic systems the sufficient cause of salvation is this 'knowledge of' ('acquaintance with') the divine. This is commonly identified with a process of inward 'knowing' or self-exploration, comparable to that encouraged by Plotinus (ca. 205–270 AD). However, as may be seen, the term 'gnostic' also had precedent usage in several ancient philosophical traditions, which must also be weighed in considering the very subtle implications of its appellation to a set of ancient religious groups.
An alternate heritage is offered by Kurt Rudolph in his book Gnosis: The Nature & Structure of Gnosticism (Koehler and Amelang, Leipzig, 1977), to explain the lineage of Persian Gnostic schools. The decline of Manicheism that occurred in Persia in the 5th century AD/CE was too late to prevent the spread of the movement into the east and the west. In the west, the teachings of the school moved into Syria, Northern Arabia, Egypt and North Africa (where Augustine was a member of school from 373-382); from Syria it progressed still farther, into Palestine, Asia Minor and Armenia. There is evidence for Manicheans in Rome and Dalmatia in the 4th century, and also in Gaul and Spain. The influence of Manicheanism was attacked by imperial elects and polemical writings, but the religion remained prevalent until the 6th century, and still exerted influence in the emergence of the Paulicians, Bogomils and Cathari in the middle ages, until it was ultimately stamped out as a heresy by the Catholic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
quote:
Doc: Gnosticism, in each of its many cleverly fabricated versions, has consistently been rejected by the Orthodox Christian Faith as a heresy from the time of gnosticism's initial appearance nearly 1,800 years ago. And in turn, it has also been rejected by most other Christian church denominations since then, finding both the gnostic doctrine and the methods based upon it to be erroneous and objectionable.
...for the love of God.
Doc, can you explain to me how the Catholic Church "stamped out" Manicheanism, in which St. Augustine was a member, considering the teachings heresy? Was this before or after the crusades?
VIL
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Philip wrote:
"No one can understand the Bible, especially Genesis and Revelations without deep kabbalistic understandings."
Understanding of scriptures is like the layers of an onion. If one only understands the first layer, that person can still gain value from it. the value gained is congruent with one's depth of spiritual advancement, so it would be of no value to try to teach someone a deeper layer of the onion than they are ready to understand.
As we advance, these inner layers become apparent, as does a deeper understanding of all of existence. Studying symbolism only appeals to some people, and there are many other methods of peeling back the layers of understanding. I prefer simpler, less complex methods.
But even a small child can gain benefit from some teachings of jesus.
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Hello Chrisi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
I am only on a dial-up connection so unfortunately could not watch the video link that you posted. Do you have any links to websites that help people understand the bible based on an understanding of the kabbalah?
Christi
Actually, that link was for a DVD that you can order.
The following link provides many courses that are heavily steeped in the Gnostic Christian Kabbalah. In particular: Gnostic Kabbalah (Courses 1 - 4), The 22 Arcana, and the Gnostic Book of Revelation.
http://www.gnosticteachings.org/courses/
Now, the basis of Gnosis is Knowledge, yet knowledge of the type spoken of in Genesis, when "Adam knew Eve," not to far from the Tree of Knowledge. This is the Tree of Gnosis, Knowledge, which is Daath in Hebrew. Daath is tantrism. Of course nearly every "expert" will tell you that Daath has nothing to do with that, but that is because they do not possess tantric knowledge. Actually, there are some rabbis that know very well these things, but they do not tell others, and they don't practice what they know.
Adam and Eve represent (in the context of the biological organism) what is called Ida and Pingala in the east. Eve is the Lunar, Adam is the Solar. Adam is related with the mind, and the cerebral fluid. Eve is related with the sex, and the sexual fluids (endocrine system). The serpent of genesis is directly related with the kundalini, it is absoultely sexual. The serpent tempts Eve because she represents the sexual nature in every man and woman. The fall of Adam and Eve is the fall of one's own kundalini. Sex gave us knowledge of good and evil, yet we have become trapped in good and evil (which are just descriptors for evoloving and devolving energies).
Moses healed the Israelites (IS-RA-EL: Isis, Ra, Elohim) (representing the diverse aspects of ones inner being or atman that must become cognizant and integrated) by raising, of course, The Bronze Serpent. Jesus reminds us and says, "Just as Moses raises the Bronze Serpent, so must the Son of Man be risen." This is the kundalini. The Son of Man must rise in each and every person, so that the interior Jesus, which is the Tetragrammaton (IHVE - Jehova), with a SHIN (which means FIRE) so that his name is Yeshua (IHSVE), or savior, can save each and every person. The whole life of Jesus is a drama that must be played out in our soul, much like the Mahabarata is a war that we must wage against our own blood (ego).
Getting back on topic, the real process of the immaculate conception occurs when one gives birth first to "John the Baptist" and then "Jesus" within one's soul. This is a process that can only occur through sexual transmutation and psychological transformation. An immaculate conception is the birth through the Third Logos, Binah, the Holy Spirit, which in Hinduism is Shiva and his wife Shakti. The laboratory, or temple, of the Holy Spirit is the human body. The Holy Spirit works on the level of animal sexuality when we reach orgasm, and works on the level of a human being when one practices sexual transmutation. The true human being can procreate through Kryra-Shakti, in other words, through willpower. This was the method of procreation prior to the the fall of Adam and Eve.
Mary-Christ Mass to everyone!
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Thanks for that, Philip. Great post:
[:)]
VIL
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
And in turn, it has also been rejected by most other Christian church denominations since then, finding both the gnostic doctrine and the methods based upon it to be erroneous and objectionable.
Doc, you make great use of the " [xx(] [V] " emoticons, and it is unfortunate that St. Irenaeus of Lyons did not have use of emoticons, because I am sure he would have liberally used them and the text would look something like this:
Chapter IX.-Refutation of the Impious Interpretations of These Heretics. [V][V][xx(][xx(][V]
1. You see, my friend, the method which these men employ to deceive themselves, [xx(][V] while they abuse the Scriptures by endeavouring to support their own system out of them. [V][V][:(!][xx(] For this reason, I have brought forward their modes of expressing themselves, that thus thou mightest understand the deceitfulness of their procedure, [V][V][xx(] and the wickedness of their error. [V][V][V][xx(]
[;)][;)][;)][;)][;)][;)][:o)][:o)][:o)][:o)] [ winks and clownies mine ]
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL:
"...for the love of God."
Amen to that! Whatever Illuminates our Way...leading us and guiding us on the Path of God's Love...the Love of All that God eternally manifests as The Source Of All That Is...resonates in Perfect Harmony with both the Teachings of Advaita Vedanta and the Teachings of Jesus! [8D]
Keeping that clearly in mind when investigating various spiritual paths...the questions that always arise are simple. The answers, however, may sometimes feel profoundly complicated and uncertain. For example....Does the path of a particular teaching lead to Love of God? Is the Light of Divine Love overtly evident in the teachings? Does a Perfect Harmony of Union in God's Divine Love resonate in the teachings?
Where Divine Love is Present in the Heart...there also is Divine Light as Illuminated Consciousness...uniting Heart and Mind with God. More than one way can lead to this goal....but not all ways do....and many, many do not!
Buyer beware! "All that glitters is not gold." [;)]
As for your questions, VIL, regarding how the Roman Catholic Church has handled various heresies, you will need to research that yourself. I am not a Roman Catholic, so I would have to research that myself to know the details. Happy hunting!
Hari OM!
Doc
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quote:
david_obsidian:
...we are not a Christian forum, though Christians are of course free to post here.
neither i restrict myself to any "isms" [xx(]
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Originally posted by david_obsidian
You see, my friend, the method which these men employ to deceive themselves, [xx(][V] while they abuse the Scriptures by endeavouring to support their own system out of them. [V][V][:(!][xx(] For this reason, I have brought forward their modes of expressing themselves, that thus thou mightest understand the deceitfulness of their procedure, [V][V][xx(] and the wickedness of their error. [V][V][V][xx(]
[/purple][/b]
[;)][;)][;)][;)][;)][;)][:o)][:o)][:o)][:o)] [ winks and clownies mine ]
Davidism? [:p]
quote:
david_obsidian:
...it is unfortunate that St. Irenaeus of Lyons did not have use of emoticons
LOL [:D]
thanx for the emoticonism [;)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip
Adam and Eve represent (in the context of the biological organism) what is called Ida and Pingala in the east. Eve is the Lunar, Adam is the Solar. Adam is related with the mind, and the cerebral fluid. Eve is related with the sex, and the sexual fluids (endocrine system). The serpent of genesis is directly related with the kundalini, it is absoultely sexual. The serpent tempts Eve because she represents the sexual nature in every man and woman. The fall of Adam and Eve is the fall of one's own kundalini. Sex gave us knowledge of good and evil, yet we have become trapped in good and evil (which are just descriptors for evoloving and devolving energies).
I have come across a belief-system, where Eve was sexually tempted
by Lucifer (spiritual Fall), and then in turn, through the influence
of Lucifer, Eve tempted Adam (physical Fall).
So here the serpent is Lucifer, an angel, having sexual realtionship
with Eve. What would you make of such a belief system ?
Well, this brings up the question: what are angels ? And what kind
of relationship is possible between (wo)man and an angel ?
Anybody got some enlightening insight to offer ?
L&L
Wolfgang
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Fair enough, Doc; and although I don't believe in many of the teachings that some consider gnosis, I think it important each individual make that distinction themselves:
[:)]
VIL
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quote:
I have come across a belief-system, where Eve was sexually tempted
by Lucifer (spiritual Fall), and then in turn, through the influence
of Lucifer, Eve tempted Adam (physical Fall).
So here the serpent is Lucifer, an angel, having sexual realtionship
with Eve. What would you make of such a belief system ?
Well, this brings up the question: what are angels ? And what kind
of relationship is possible between (wo)man and an angel ?
Anybody got some enlightening insight to offer ?
L&L
Wolfgang
Lucifer is the bearer of light: Luci - light. fer - to hold or carry, to transport (e.g. "ferry"). Lucifer is the temptation, and when temptation is overcome, the light is the outcome. All light, which is Christ (Ain Soph Aur - Limitless Light), is the outcome of Lucifer. This is the mystery of Christos-Lucifer. It is necessary to make the light within our interior (become enlightened), and then hold this light for others to see and emulate. Yet, "Eve" did not overcome the temptation, thus darkness was the result. Darkness is sub-, un-, and infra-consciousness. The light (Christ) shines in the the darkness (of the fallen mind), and the darkness comprehends it not.
Lucifer is more of a cosmic force than an angel. Lucifer is the sexual impulse. One transforms lucifer into satan when the sexual force is polluted with desire. Using Lucifer is the way to awaken. Lucifer is the the way to become an Angel, and the way to become a Demon. An Angel is a perfected awakened human soul, and a Demon is a perverse awakened human soul. When "Eve" falls into the temptation of her sexual impulse (Lucifer), she gives birth to Cain, which is the false animalistic ignorant intellect that does not know how to please God. Being jealous Cain kills the human soul, Abel.
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Another take on scripture, copied from this topic: http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1728&whichpage=5
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Hi All:
The "truth" of the scriptures is only real if it can be verified in human experience, because human experience is what the scriptures are recording in the first place. The scriptures were written (or orally transmitted) by human beings! They are "absolute" only when mythologized to be so, and this has both pros and cons. The best scriptures are those which can also provide practical means for cultivating the spiritual potential which their authors professed to be resident in all human beings.
Scriptures can be useful when taken on blind faith over the short term, aiding in promoting bhakti and direct spiritual experience, and thus helping dissolve blind faith. But, if taken as absolute truth on blind faith indefinitely, without ongoing spiritual growth via effective practices, scriptures can become the foundation (or excuse) for grossly aberrant conduct in human beings. Any knowledge reduced to the level of an "ideology" and taken on blind faith on an ongoing basis will lead to conflict with other ideologies also taken on blind faith. When a scripture has been reduced to an ideology, beware!
Like any knowledge, scriptures can be well-used or terribly misused.
The real test of any scripture is in whether its highest ideals can be actualized in human experience. That is where the rubber meets the road. For thousands of years many dedicated practitioners have recorded their experiences on the path of human spiritual transformation, and, in some cases, recorded practical means to cultivate the divine outpouring in everyone. We owe them a great deal. How we use the information is up to us -- hopefully for the betterment of all humankind.
Just one person's opinion. [:)]
The guru is in you.
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Hi Yogani,
quote:
Yogani wrote:
Scriptures can be useful when taken on blind faith over the short term, aiding in promoting bhakti and direct spiritual experience, and thus helping dissolve blind faith. But, if taken as absolute truth on blind faith indefinitely, without ongoing spiritual growth via effective practices, scriptures can become the foundation (or excuse) for grossly aberrant conduct in human beings. Any knowledge reduced to the level of an "ideology" and taken on blind faith on an ongoing basis will lead to conflict with other ideologies also taken on blind faith. When a scripture has been reduced to an ideology, beware!
Thanks for the reminder Yogani. I agree with you totally that blind faith in scripture can be useful. I never thought I would hear myself say that, especially as I am a rationalist and a sceptical hard-nosed scientist[:)]. As I see it, the scriptures are guides on a journey. If we have developed some faith in a particular scripture, due to it having been relevant on our path up to the point we are at now, then we can (reasonably) assume that we can have faith in the rest of the teachings, even though we have not yet developed our own understanding of those teachings through direct experience. So rationally, blind faith makes a lot of sense. ALthough, as you say, within limits.
Of course, if we are going to use scriptures as tools on the path back to the Divine, then we have to understand them. So I assume your warning here is about not getting attached to the truth of scriptures, to the point where we start arguing about which one is really "True" and leads to God, rather than a warning against trying to understand the scriptures themselves.
Hi Doc
quote:
Doc wrote:
Gnosticism, in each of its many cleverly fabricated versions, has consistently been rejected by the Orthodox Christian Faith as a heresy from the time of gnosticism's initial appearance nearly 1,800 years ago. And in turn, it has also been rejected by most other Christian church denominations since then, finding both the gnostic doctrine and the methods based upon it to be erroneous and objectionable.
I should clear up a misunderstanding here. When I used the word “Gnostic” in reference to traditions from which certain schools of religious practice developed, such as the Essene tradition, I was not referring to the very limited use of the word as it is used by some historians and Christians when they talk about Gnosticism. When we study the teachings of the Essenes, we can see that the Essenes were a highly advanced spiritual group, with teachings that referred to both a Heavenly Father and an Earth Mother. Much of what later came to be known as Christianity was already fully developed and being practiced by the Essenes before the birth of Christ. In fact I would say that most of the teachings of Christ were probably Essene teachings. The Essenes were obviously not Jewish in their outlook, beliefs or practices. There were other spiritual traditions around the Middle East at the same time, with similar, non-Jewish beliefs, and it seems obvious (to me at least) that these traditions developed from a Gnostic (in the purest sense of the word) tradition that probably goes way back in time. I was using the word Gnostic in the sense of a spiritual tradition that is based on direct spiritual experience both in its development and in its practice. In other words, a tradition where it is as important to develop knowledge through mystical experience, as it is to believe any particular doctrine or teaching. I believe this is what the Essenes were doing, what Christ, as an Essene was doing and, incidentally, what we are doing[8D]. Sorry about any confusion caused through my loose use of language.
Hi Philip
quote:
Philip wrote:Actually, that link was for a DVD that you can order.
Sorry… I just saw the word “video”, and thought, “Oh no, another of these online videos that I can’t watch because of my limited connection. I didn’t actually click on it. Thanks for the other (non-dvd) links though.
I find your descriptions of Genesis fascinating. You obviously have a very great undrestanding of the Kabala, and of mysticism. One thing I have always wondered, what are the Elohem? I always thought they were angels, but you mention them in one of your posts above as being aspects of the human soul. Is it true that the first line of the Christian bible is not about God at all, but rather about the Elohem (In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Elohem, and the word was the Elohem....)?
I heard this once, but as I don't speak ancient hebrew, I had no way of validating it).
Christi
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Christi,
Yes, the Gnosticism you are mentioning is the one in which I study and practice. I agree with what Yogani has stated about "blind faith". True faith, in truth, is experience of God. When a gnostic says "I have faith in God," what he is saying that he has experienced God, the Truth, etc. on some level. This is the faith of seed that can move mountains!
quote:
I find your descriptions of Genesis fascinating. You obviously have a very great undrestanding of the Kabala, and of mysticism. One thing I have always wondered, what are the Elohem? I always thought they were angels, but you mention them in one of your posts above as being aspects of the human soul. Is it true that the first line of the Christian bible is not about God at all, but rather about the Elohem (In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the Elohem, and the word was the Elohem....)?
I heard this once, but as I don't speak ancient hebrew, I had no way of validating it).
The Elohim are the Gods and Goddesses. El is the Hebrew word for God. Eloah is the Hebrew word for Goddesses. Elohim therefore is a compound word that describes the Army of the Voice, The Word (AUM, LOGOS), the conjunction of all the Gods and Goddesses. We have to be careful how we understand these words, because "God" as a singular entity is just an "Angel," a "Deva," a "Buddha." All these words are describing more or less the same type of entity. But the WORD, the LOGOS, the holy and sacred vibration of creation, the AUM that we love to chant, is beyond God, it is THAT which appears from SAT (the Absolute). The Elohim are the Hosts of the Word.
The Christian bible is about the Christ, which is beyond God. People do not know how to understand Gnosticism because they do not know the difference between Jehovah Elohim, and the Christ, which is beyond Elohim. True Gnostic Christianity, which is the essence of the Bible, has never been understood by the Roman Church. The Gnostic Church is very active in these days, yet, one must knock in order to enter.
quote:
For the crime of having accompanied Jesus Christ in the Holy Land and because of having celebrated our rituals within Rome's catacombs, we, the Gnostics faced the lions in the circus of Rome. Then, later, in time, we were burnt alive in the flames of the Roman Catholic inquisition. Previously, we were the mystical Essenes of Palestine. So, we are not improvising opportunist doctrines. We were hidden during twenty centuries, but now we are returning once again to the street in order to carry on our shoulders the old, rough and heavy cross.
Paul took our doctrine to Rome. Yes, he was a Gnostic Nazarene.
Jesus-Christ taught our doctrine in secrecy to his seventy disciples.
The Sethani, Peratae, Carpocratians, Nazarenes and Essenes are Gnostic. The Egyptian and Aztec Mysteries, the Mysteries of Rome, Troy, Carthage, of Eleusis, India, of the Druids, Pythagoreans, Kambirs, of Mithra and Persia, etc. are in their depth that which we call Gnosis or Gnosticism.
We now once again open the ancient Gnostic Sanctuaries which were closed with the arrival of the Dark Age. Thus, we are now opening the authentic Initiatic Colleges. - From The Major Mysteries by Samael Aun Weor.
That which is like the exterior is in similar nature that which is within. Therefore, there is also the "Elohim" within, which represent the diverse aspects of one's inner being that wishes to integrate and awaken. When one's inner being is totally integrated and awakened, then another "star" or "atom" of Brahma (Cosmic Father) is awakened. Brahma sleeps, but he wishes to awaken all of his parts, which are all the beings of everyone, but every being has all of its parts. Do you see how creation is cosmically recursive? When one understands the scriptures kabbalistically, one gains many different levels of knowledge from the same passage. One level pertains to the development of the human soul (microcosmos), another to the earth (mesocosmos), another to the stars (macrocosmos), etc., etc. When one knows how to meditate on this material, the appropriate understanding unfolds within the student that he or she needs in order to progress.
The four gnostic kabbalah courses (found in the link I posted before) are very detailed in all this and I recommend you study and meditate upon them. True kabbalah is when one experiences it.
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Philip:
I acknowledge that what you and others nowadays profess as 'gnostic' teachings is different in some particulars to the gnosticism that Christianity addressed long ago. Nonetheless, it still strikes me as a 'Heinz 57 Combination' of alot of ideas from a number of different Traditions...Hebrew Kaballah, Egyptian Mystery Schools, Persian Mani Cults, et al. And yet, this conglomerate of views is presented as the "appropriate understanding" of Biblical teachings which should be accepted by all as the real 'Truth' of the matter.[:0] [V]
This essentially tells those who comprise the majority of professed Christians that they don't understand the teachings of Christ, and lack the opportunity or potential capability to "experience" the essence of Christ's teachings without your alternative views and methods to direct them accordingly. It reminds me of some Muslims who insist that Mohammed came to "correctly explain Christianity"[:D]....as if the Direct Transmission of Authentic Apostolic Succession wasn't able to retain even the most simple elements of Christ's teaching, much less the advanced 'inner circle' teachings.[|)]
As a Greek Orthodox Christian Deacon, I find such ridiculous views to be both very arrogant and remarkably distasteful.[xx(] I think that all discussion of your so-called gnosticism should be placed in a separately titled thread in order to prevent any further digression from the topic of this thread.[^]
Doc
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Hi All:
Yes, please do continue this interesting discussion on Kabbalah, Gnosticism and Christianity (which has just been split off to form a new topic here), and continue the discussion on Immaculate Conception and Tantra over here: http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1820
Admittedly, there is some overlap, but I know everyone will do their best to maintain the appropriate distinctions between topics ... and civility, of course. [:)]
The guru is in you.
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Philip, I do think Doc has a point in his last post. I wouldn't feel as strongly about it as he does, but yes, he does have a point.
quote:
Philip said: Moses healed the Israelites (IS-RA-EL: Isis, Ra, Elohim) (representing the diverse aspects of ones inner being or atman that must become cognizant and integrated) by raising, of course, The Bronze Serpent. Jesus reminds us and says, "Just as Moses raises the Bronze Serpent, so must the Son of Man be risen." This is the kundalini. The Son of Man must rise in each and every person, so that the interior Jesus, which is the Tetragrammaton (IHVE - Jehova), with a SHIN (which means FIRE) so that his name is Yeshua (IHSVE), or savior, can save each and every person. The whole life of Jesus is a drama that must be played out in our soul, much like the Mahabarata is a war that we must wage against our own blood (ego).
If you want to share these points of view, talking about these controversial scriptural interpretations as if they are definite facts is probably not going to be so helpful. Many of the things you say come across to me very much like 'someone's interpretation'; ( sometimes I think a cigar is just a cigar; sometimes a John the Baptist is just a saint-friend of Jesus, not some esoteric cosmic principle that only the people who have taken the right course know about). Now, if you want to say, for example, 'John the Baptist can symbolize...', or 'To the ....., John the Baptist symbolizes', or even, 'I personally believe that John the Baptist symbolizes....', well and good, and I don't think anyone here will take issue. But if you want what you say to be taken seriously by more people, and needlessly off-putting to fewer people, you should probably modify the way you are expressing it.
There is a term for stating definitely what the one correct interpretation of the bible is: it's called preaching. It probably hasn't occurred to you that you are doing this, and only a small modification of mode-of-expression will shift your posts from preaching to merely discussing and expressing your opinion.
Enjoy AYP. [:)]
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Christi,
I thought this web-site may be useful to you:
http://www.kabbalah.com/
I think it important to remember that the Sephiroth [Tree of Life], relates to the body, as do all forms of mysticism, the chakras etc.; it's man's interpretation of the experience that varies:
quote:
These descriptions of Bindu and various symbols are not attempts to universalize the world religions and meditative traditions, which may have quite different practices and views of reality, particularly in the exoteric faces of religion. However, there is a seemingly universal human experience of the Bindu itself on the inner journey, just as the inner experiences of light and sound seem to be common and universal. While the reality is universal, the way of interpreting the experience of Bindu may be different for people of different cultures and religions. See also the article, Mysticism, Yoga, and Religion.]
http://www.swamij.com/bindu.htm
So, some may liken Malchut to the Muladhara Chakra. And some may say that Elohim is representative of the male/female energies combined, as the Kundalini [feminine] awakens and moves up the body to the the Sahasrara Chakra [male], or Keter [the crown]. Atman, Brahman, Bindu, Elohim [AUM]. Although, the exact meaning of the word Elohim is not known.
Malkhut, [The Kingdom of God] which is "emunah" [Faith] is located at the feet of the body relating to the dropping away of the ego. So we can now understand the meaning of Christ washing only his disciples feet:
quote:
After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him. 6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?" 7 Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."
John 13: 5-7.
When all has been tried and the ego finally relents, gives up control and is annihilated, it is done so in Faith, since it's then that the ego realizes that something Else is in control. And is then, that God is realized.
The Dark Night of the Soul: St. John:
http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/saints/darknite.htm
Malkhut is also related to the mouth and it is in the sense that Christ was a Word, whereas his disciples were like disconnected letters, who still possessed the ego, and lacked the absolute embodiment or self-sufficiency of complete Faith.
VIL
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Hi Philip,
Thanks for that info on the Elohim, it was very informative. I will follow up the link you posted.
Hi Vil,
Great post, and thanks for the links. It seems that these words (like Elohim) are fairly ambiguous in terms of their exact meanings. It sounds like we are talking about subtle Light and Sound vibrations at a level fairly close to the source of all Being, and aspects relating to these Divine eminations. So I guess it's not that surprising that words get a little tricky[:)].
quote:
I think it important to remember that the Sephiroth [Tree of Life], relates to the body, as do all forms of mysticism, the chakras etc.; it's man's interpretation of the experience that varies:
I don't know if I quite agree with you here. I once saw a diagram of the Kabbalistic tree of life, and immediately I thought: "this is a diagram of the realms of being leading back to the Divine". I saw each ascending level (on the tree) as being a higher realm of existance. In fact the ten Sefirot are referred to as Midot, which means "Dimensions". Of course the seven main Chakras also are linked to different dimentions of being, but the question for me is, does the Sephiroth relate to the various gross and subtle dimensions of being directly, and secondarily, and only by implication, to the chakra system of the human body? This was my intuative feeling.
Christi
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There is no doubt that the Bible is written in code. It should be obvious to anybody who has ever read it seriously.
Most Christian churches today whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Greek or Eastern Orthodox have lost their core esoteric teachings. This is evident from the fact that the hundreds of millions of people who follow them and claim to be Christian are not actually living spiritual lives. This is because the Bishops and the Deacons of those churches are not leading by example and are not walking in the footsteps of Christ.
So I would like to thank Philip for his wise comments. Instead of shouting heresy (Doc) and criticising Philip's wording (david) it would be much more helpful if you could address the issue at hand and explain why you think his interpretations are incorrect. And it would be helpful if you could back up your comments by scripture as he did. Being an Orthodox Deacon does not give you authority to declare anything a heresy, Doc. A heresy is a teaching which leads to degradation of the human body, mind and soul. I don't see how anything Philip said qualifies as that. The exoteric Christian churches of today are more deserving of that label than most gnostic (aka esoteric) teachings.
"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20
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Chiron,
"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20
I don't know if you want your righteousness to exceed anyone else's, but it's not my agenda here at all. I ain't interested in being more righteous than no scribes and no Pharisees. [8D] [deliver in the rap-song idiom -- finish with downswipe and then folded arms]. I am merely giving advice about how to hold a civil conversation.
I don't feel very involved in this conversation, rather, I'm making an effort to have people be fair in the way they conduct it. if you want to be fair, think about symmetry -- don't use a tactic or mode of expression that you would find objectionable in a person you would disagree with. Another utterance of questionable fairness, by the way, is: " It should be obvious to anybody who has ever read it seriously."
Chiron said:
Most Christian churches today whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Greek or Eastern Orthodox have lost their core esoteric teachings. This is evident from the fact that the hundreds of millions of people who follow them and claim to be Christian are not actually living spiritual lives. This is because the Bishops and the Deacons of those churches are not leading by example and are not walking in the footsteps of Christ.
Chiron, is it really the fault of the Bishops and the Deacons? Tell me that you didn't include 'Deacons' because you know Doc is a Deacon.... Was there ever an established great esoteric core which those churches lost? I don't think so, but never mind that --- one thing I can say with certainty in their defense: however short you may believe the 'Bishops and Deacons' are in good example, all the ones I know of can give you good example in this: they don't preach outside their congregations.
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Christi,
I think that your intuitive sense is correct.
We can relate to God through the nervous system and call the experience dimensions or something else, as long as we derive its benefits. The reason why we have great practices like AYP:
[:)]
VIL
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
I don't know if you want your righteousness to exceed anyone else's, but it's not my agenda here at all. I ain't interested in being more righteous than no scribes and no Pharisees. [8D] [deliver in the rap-song idiom -- finish with downswipe and then folded arms]. I am merely giving advice about how to hold a civil conversation.
Yes I definitely want my righteousness to exceed those of the fat priests and Pharisees who claim to be religious yet live materialistic lives. As far as I could tell you were simply picking on irrelevant things and ignoring the main points of Philip's posts.
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
I don't feel very involved in this conversation, rather, I'm making an effort to have people be fair in the way they conduct it. if you want to be fair, think about symmetry -- don't use a tactic or mode of expression that you would find objectionable in a person you would disagree with. Another utterance of questionable fairness, by the way, is: " It should be obvious to anybody who has ever read it seriously."
Well, have you not noticed the mathematical patterns and puzzles throughout the Bible? If you haven't then you haven't read it seriously because the whole book is littered with them.
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Chiron, is it really the fault of the Bishops and the Deacons? Tell me that you didn't include 'Deacons' because you know Doc is a Deacon. Was there ever an established great esoteric core which those churches lost? I don't think so, but never mind that --- one thing I can say with certainty in their defense: at least all the Bishops and Deacons I know of have stopped preaching outside their congregations.
All the Christian churches have their roots in the esoteric teachings such as kabbalah, gnosticism and hesychasm. In today's materialistic world religions have become exoteric, polluting and pushing out of sight the true teachings of Jesus Christ (esoteric). This ofcourse is not completely the fault of Bishops and Deacons (representatives of those religions) as it is the age we live in when materialistic energies are at their strongest. But when people go around knocking on doors telling others they need to join a church to be saved when they themselves are attached to materialism then they do begin to bear responsibility. But I guess you don't know that many Bishops or Deacons.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chiron
There is no doubt that the Bible is written in code. It should be obvious to anybody who has ever read it seriously.
Most Christian churches today whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Greek or Eastern Orthodox have lost their core esoteric teachings. This is evident from the fact that the hundreds of millions of people who follow them and claim to be Christian are not actually living spiritual lives. This is because the Bishops and the Deacons of those churches are not leading by example and are not walking in the footsteps of Christ.
[:0] [:D] You have now transited from the ridiculous to the absurd. [|)]
"Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact." George Eliot
You should really stick to writing about things that you actually know something about! [:I] Are you a Christian? A clergyman? How many Bishops or Deacons do you know personally, that you can speak of how they may or may not "lead by example"?
People of ALL religious persuasions worldwide lead non-spiritual, materialistic lives because they choose to do so. They make what they 'have' physically the top priority, rather than 'who' they are spiritually. This choice is seen among Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Gnostics, et al, and probably has nothing whatsoever to do with the presence or absence of any "core esoteric teachings" in their respective religions, since they are not interested in such things anyway....even if they had access to them!
If the merit of your spiritual path and practices can only be validated by denigrating the spiritual paths of those who hold a different view from your own, how good can it be? Please speak freely of the merit and value of your path, based on your personal experience with it, but please do so without constantly drawing negative comparisons to other paths. [V]
"Very few men are wise solely by their own counsel, or learned solely by their own teaching; for he that was taught only by himself had a fool for his master." Ben Jonson
Happy Holidays!
Doc
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Who am I? Well, I am just dust. I have no authority or power over anything. That is why I will not call anyone a fool or their teaching a heresy.
But the spiritual level of today's people is miserable. This is an obvious fact and I am not drawing any negative comparisons. Hundreds of millions of those people call themselves Christian. Yet they do not seek God inside themselves and they do not bear the cross of Jesus Christ (Which, by the way, is inside each one us (http://www.omnadelight.com/Images/YogiSm.jpg). And neither do their Bishops or Deacons. I know this because I have never come across a Christian bishop or deacon or minister who's abilities exceeded that of a normal person which tells me that they have not made much progress in their spiritual path, maybe you are an exception to that Doc, I don't know. So in my opinion the established churches and their representatives bear responsibility, at least in part, for the low spiritual levels and materialistic attachments of their followers.
Why do most people today not seek to be still and do not hold the progress of their soul as the most important goal of their life? Why do the Bishops and Deacons of the established churches not stress that God must first be found inside each one of our hearts? Found through specific spiritual practice that involves the development of the body, mind and soul. Why do so many truthseekers turn to yoga and himalayan buddhism? Is it not because the vast majority of today's established churches and their representatives lack esoteric knowledge?
Btw, I am not picking on Christians.. most of what I said can be applied to all other mainstream religions.
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Chiron said:
As far as I could tell you were simply picking on irrelevant things and ignoring the main points of Philip's posts.
Far from it, Chiron; it wasn't on topic per se, but it wasn't irrelevant: it was a point-of-order, in support of Doc's complaint.
It may surprise you, but Deacon Doc of the Established Religions has been the good example of not preaching outside his congregation here. Look carefully if you don't believe me; he can get provoked easily and will complain strongly if he is: but he hasn't been directly preaching his own beliefs to the unrequesting masses (though he will tell us what he or his tradition believes).
If any kind of preacher turns up here, they're going to be called on it. If you are wavin' the bible and telling us what is the true word o' God, you're a-preachin'. That would go not just for Southern Baptist preachers but for Gnostic preachers too -- preachin' is preachin' either way. And if you are drawing negative simplistic pictures of the others whom you believe lost the true word o' God, whether conventional Christians or Gnostics or Pagans or whatever, you're a-preachin' in a sectarian manner.
There is truth in what I say here, Chiron. You might not have realized that you were preaching, but you were. In any case what remains is an opportunity to see here that you have been doing it and to stop. Do just that and it is no biggie at all -- we all need to be pulled up now and again. And then to just get on with things -- and to tell us what you believe about these things without crossing the sectarian preaching line. That's all. [:)]
Oh yes, and Philip -- welcome to the forum. [:)]
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Sorry david, but I don't have a congregation. I don't even have a religion. So I got nothing to preach here. And no there is no truth in what I say because the truth cannot be said and these are not the words of God.. And if you actually want to post something which is relevant to the points in my posts then I will gladly explain my views further. There goes my attempt to keep you and Doc open-minded to new interpretations.. but its ok if you want to stick to your pre-established conclusions.
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Obviously, no amount of debate or discussion solves any problem in truth. The truth at hand cannot be found anyone inside of the mind, for the mind does not have the ability to grasp the truth, only the shadow of it. Thus, we find ourselves always arguing over the shapes of shadows when indeed we have forgotten what produced them.
Logic, no matter how elegantly presented, is subjective. Any argument can be countered with an equally matched antithesis. The result is ignorance, which indeed is the anti-gnosis.
The Gnostics have always been on the fringe, have never been accepted by the masses and I fully understand the impetus of the feelings expressed on this thread concerning my words.
I, nor does anyone else, has the right to provoke any emotion, good or evil, in another person. It is good to note that the latter is the result of psychological slavery, which is a form of suffering. Absolute and perfect psychological equilibrium can be understood as the Narrow Gate and the Middle Way that few are able to adhere to.
Theories bore me. Belief tires me. Therefore what I wish, for everyone here, is the Nativity of Christ to transpire within our hearts and minds so that all this confusion, conflict, negative emotions, darkness and gnashing of teeth washes away into a sea of infinite delights and awesome happiness.
quote:
Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. - Matthew 7:13
With these words of the Adorable Savior, let us meditate on the fact that it is not I who states that few know the True Way, but Him.
quote:
You beings on earth who are deep in slumber...
Stop sleeping!
Wake up!
What are you waiting for?
- The Zohar
Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, [and] thou shalt be satisfied with bread.
– Proverbs 20:13
Bull-like, noble, a hero, a great sage, and a conqueror, he who is motionless of mind, washed clean and awakened – that is what I call a brahmin.
– Buddha
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Greetings Chiron and Philip:
I hold no grudge against either of you. I also have no desire to engage the two of you in a 'my religion is better than your religion' debate and 'mud slinging' contest. In fact, quite sincerely, I feel great empathy and compassion for both of you. And I would like you to know that it saddens my heart to think that you apparently had an unpleasant 'church experience' or a hurtful religious upbringing, probably in a Christian church congregation of some kind.[:(] [V]
Not outside Christianity looking in, as if trying to peer through darkly tinted glass, but from the inside where I am able to fully and clearly see the intrinsic value of everything within, I can tell you from direct and profound personal experience that Eastern Orthodox Christianity does in fact possess an 'Inner Circle' compilation of esoteric spiritual writings, teachings, and practices.[8D]
Traditionally, from the earliest days of Christianity, these materials and practices have been accessible to all Orthodox, but have been primarily preserved and perpetuated by monastics and ordained clergymen. This is because individuals in these two groups most often represent the majority of those who thirst for such Knowledge, Revelation, and Illumination. [8D]
I am such an individual, having been both a monk and a clergyman. Thus, I humbly speak on behalf of this 'hidden tradition' by posting on topics such as this one! It's a dirty job sometimes, but someone needs to do it! [;)]
I am not at liberty to openly discuss some things, but can freely comment on other topics at my own discretion. And I will gladly do so if there is an interest, but only if the Christian bashing ceases and desists on this thread.[B)]
Happy Holidays!
Doc
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Chiron said: Sorry david, but I don't have a congregation. I don't even have a religion. So I got nothing to preach here.
Yes. Double the reason not to preach.
Chiron said: There goes my attempt to keep you and Doc open-minded to new interpretations.. but its ok if you want to stick to your pre-established conclusions.
You are just dust? You are styling yourself as the humble servant-of-god, aren't you? I'm really wondering which is true --- that you can't see your aggressive and presumptuous mode of delivery at all, or that you love it too much to let it go?
Let me make one thing totally clear: I don't object to your beliefs at all, or to your expressing them here. What I am criticizing is what you are doing here on the forum.
Philip said: The Gnostics have always been on the fringe, have never been accepted by the masses and I fully understand the impetus of the feelings expressed on this thread concerning my words.
Yeah, the Rebel Force, heroically struggling against the Evil Empire.... And you have something in your ship dressed in big cute Wookie-furs and which you may think is a Wookie, but it is breathing and talking just like Darth Vader. [:D] [ kaaaaaw -phoooooh, Arf-Arf! kaaaaaaw- phooooooh Arf-Arf! -that's the sound of Darth Vader pretending to be a Wookie! [8D] ]. And that is the big self-styled-Wookie-within that is preaching here in a sectarian manner, waving the bible, bashing mainstream Christianity, and styling those who disagree as closed-minded.
C'mon, snap down from the trip. No-one's getting on your case here for being in the Rebel Force, it's the sectarian bible-thumping that's pulling in the objections.
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quote:
Yeah, the Rebel Force, heroically struggling against the Evil Empire.... And you have something in your ship dressed in big cute Wookie-furs and which you may think is a Wookie, but it is breathing and talking just like Darth Vader. [:D] [ kaaaaaw -phoooooh, Arf-Arf! kaaaaaaw- phooooooh Arf-Arf! -that's the sound of Darth Vader pretending to be a Wookie! [8D] ]. And that is the big self-styled-Wookie-within that is preaching here in a sectarian manner, waving the bible, bashing mainstream Christianity, and styling those who disagree as closed-minded.
C'mon, snap down from the trip. No-one's getting on your case here for being in the Rebel Force, it's the sectarian bible-thumping that's pulling in the objections.
What I have done in a few posts is explain some esoteric symbolism held by the initatic schools of present day and antiquity. Those who wish to verify these things through their own study can do so. Furthermore, and what is of greater import, is for one to awaken their consciousness, leave their dense body at will and study in the temples that exist in the superior worlds of the cosmos. Anyone is free to do this.
The very nature of an esoteric symbolism is 100% antagonistic to those who do not believe it exists because it undermines the very basis of those sects, schools, churches, etc., that do not accept it. Likewise, by stating it does not exist, one is bashing Gnosticism, the revelations that Jesus unveiled to his 70 disciples after his resurrection in The Pistis Sophia (Books of the Savior), etc. Speaking as a Gnostic inherently offends those who believe it to be heresy.
I will modify, then, my first post of this thread: According to Gnosticism, at first the Christians had this knowledge, yet, eventually lost it. According to the Gnostic Catholic Church, the entire Bible was written by those who knew the Kabbalah, and the Roman Catholic Church deviated from its source, the Gnostic Catholic Church, and today the Roman Catholic Church views Christic Esotericism as heresy. According to Gnostic Christianity, no one can understand the Bible, especially Genesis and Revelations without deep kabbalistic comprehension. The Gnostic Catholic Church separates itself from the Roman Catholic Church because it cannot accept the lack of the sexual teachings (sexual transmutation) that were given in code by Jesus Christ.
I apologize for my offensive tones in the previous posts.
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
What I have done in a few posts is explain some esoteric symbolism held by the initatic schools of present day and antiquity. The very nature of an esoteric symbolism is 100% antagonistic to those who do not believe it exists because it undermines the very basis of those sects, schools, churches, etc., that do not accept it. Likewise, by stating it does not exist, one is bashing Gnosticism, the revelations that Jesus unveiled to his 70 disciples after his resurrection in The Pistis Sophia (Books of the Savior), etc. Speaking as a Gnostic inherently offends those who believe it to be heresy.
Speaking again on behalf of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, I have already stated that an Esoteric Christian Spiritual Tradition and Method has always existed within the original Eastern Orthodox Christianity since the earliest times. What I don't accept as fact is the Completely Bogus and Totally False Claim that Gnostic Spirituality and/or Theology realistically represents the sole, legitimate and authentic depository of the Ancient Esoteric Christian Tradition! [:0] [xx(] [|)]
It was common knowledge among the immediate Apostles and Disciples of Jesus that His teaching of the public crowds who flocked to hear Him speak was different, both in content and in the manner of presentation, than what was taught to the 'Inner Circle' of His closest followers...the Apostles and Disciples who lived with Jesus and accompanied Him throughout His public ministry. This group of men and women represented immediate family members...such as St. James the Just, the first Christian Patriarch or Bishop of Jerusalem, who was a step-brother of Jesus (Joseph's son by his deceased wife prior to wedding Mary the mother of Jesus)...as well as the dearest friends and top students with whom Jesus had the closest...most personal...Living Relationships.[:)] Who would know better what Jesus really taught privately than those who were actually there! [;)]
It is exactly these individuals who preserved in Blessed Memory the Esoteric Teachings and Methods which they initially received personally from Jesus Himself through Direct Oral Transmission and Ritual Initiation, the latter of which is now called Formal Ordination into Holy Orders. These same individuals in turn passed these Teachings and Methods on to their Initiate Disciples, who in turn passed the Tradition on to their Initiate Disciples, and so forth, down to the Present Time, in the same manner within the unbroken, Authentic Lineage of Apostolic Succession.[8D]
For ANYONE outside this Lineage of Direct Transmission to suggest or to claim that they and their alternative teachings and beliefs represent the most authentic depository of the Ancient Christian Esoteric Tradition, and the most legitimate interpretation of same, is simply not the case....and is therefore correctly identified as False Teaching or Heresy....insofar as they relate to Authentic Christianity. The Lord Jesus has in fact spiritually guided and protected the preservation and transmission of this Tradition within Orthodox Christianity, as evidenced by the historical record which verifies that Orthodoxy has NEVER ADDED TO, NEVER MODIFIED OR REVISED, NEVER REINTERPRETED, AND NEVER EDITED OR SUBTRACTED ANYTHING from the ORIGINAL DIRECT TRANSMISSION received from Jesus.[^]
Now this IS NOT to say that there is nothing of value in the Gnostic Tradition. I personally have never stated such a belief. I openly accept the logical possibility and the high probability that virtually every spiritual tradition that withstands the acid test of time through history, including the Gnostic Tradition, must contain elements of Eternal Truth and Divine Revelation at the core of their systems to sustain their Traditions over such long periods of time. This makes perfect, rational sense to me.[:)]
What doesn't make rational sense to me, however, as a few ridiculous examples, is that Fundamentalist Protestant Christian Churches have a more accurate perspective on the Teachings, Scriptures, and Traditions of Hinduism or Buddhism than the Hindus and Buddhists themselves do; or similarly, that Hindu or Buddhist Sages, Sadhus, Arhats, and Holy Men are alone privy to the truest interpretation of all religious and spiritual teachings, even outside their own religious schools and traditions! [:0] [:I]
By the same logical and rational reckoning, it makes no sense to me that Gnostics, Hindus, Buddhists, or Muslims, are likely to possess a more authentic perspective or a more legitimate teaching regarding the Original Esoteric Christian Tradition than does the Eastern or Greek Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church to whom the Tradition in question was initially given by Jesus Himself! It doesn't take an Einstein level of intelligence to perceive this as probable fact! [:p]
Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
Happy Holidays!
Doc
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Hi All:
Pardon me for interrupting, but sectarian and/or political debates are not part of what we want to be doing in the AYP forums. There are plenty of other places to engage in such discussions.
We are interested in spiritual practices, their conduct, their effects, and optimization of the process of human spiritual transformation for maximum safe progress.
Please note that the name of this forum is "Other Systems of Spiritual Practice." Discussions on practices are welcome here from any source whatsoever. We can gain a lot from eachother that way. But the sectarian haggling is not welcome at all. We are yogis and yoginis here, and opportunistic ones at that. So we are always looking for useful angles on practice, and not a rehash of the foibles of human history.
As for the dangling discussions on secret codes, inner circles, secret societies and teachings, better to limit those also, because they only reinforce sectarian divides. There is no "us and them" here. Only us.
In AYP we have no secrets! Anyone who wants to mention a secret here, better be prepared to tell it, and in practical terms directly related to the conduct of our daily spiritual practices. That we are very interested in.
Thanks very much for keeping these points in mind. [:)]
The guru is in you.
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Gentlemen, comparative discussion of religions is of some value to the AYP community, but it can be difficult to discuss matters dear to the heart without getting heated by disagreement. So let's work as well as we can to get past the acrimony and onto the subject matter. Here are two very good guidelines:
(a) Be fair: Generally speak to those who disagree with you as you would wish the person you disagree with to speak to you
(b) Tolerate unfairness: If the person who you disagree with isn't being entirely fair, let it slide as far as possible.
(I should credit one of the respondents here, david_obsidian, insofar as I more or less copied that from what he said above.)
That boils down to (a) be as tolerable as possible and (b) be as tolerant as possible.
As you post, please ask yourselves if you are doing (a) and (b) as well as you can. Don't worry so much about whether the 'other guy' is doing it as well as he can -- part of (b) is letting stuff slide, within limits.
I'm looking forward to seeing more of the topic itself -- if you have any energy for it. [:)]
-AYP
P.S. I composed my post as Yogani was replying unbeknownst to me, but I'll leave my post here for re-inforcement.
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Hey, Phillip, I'm not that familiar with the differences between the spiral path and the straight path. I've read a couple of articles, here and there, but I was wondering what your take on it was or if you could direct me to a good website that discussed this in detail?
Thank you:
[:)]
VIL
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Namaste Yogani and Moderators!
OK. Fair enough. But these last two posts have created some confusion for me and, combined with previous e-mails to me, have also generated an uncomfortable feeling of a 'double standard' at work behind the scenes, so to speak. As a result, I have decided not to submit any further post on this particular thread, unless sufficient clarification resolves these issues.
I was informed, for example, that it would be inappropriate and unacceptable for me to post mention of factually verifiable, undeniably true, documented information regarding an individual such as Osho because it would constitute 'Guru Bashing', especially among those who follow his teachings and methods. And yet, someone like Jesus, Who has been considered a genuine Sadguru or Gurudeva and Avatara even among most non-Christian Yoga Sadhakas of the past and present, and His Teachings, are allowed to be the focal point of venomous and hateful 'Guru Bashing' on this Forum with little more than more a gentle warning and a light slap on the hand to those who are personally responsible for such disrespect! [V]
Additionally, I was warned not to post anything which was at variance with AYP teachings and practices so as not to confuse AYP practitioners or generate any doubt in their minds regarding what they have been taught, which request I have made every effort to honor. But it's OK for overt denigration of Jesus's character to transpire again and again, and for doubt to be repeatedly raised regarding what constitutes the Correct Doctrine (Orthodoxis) and the Correct Practice (Orthopraxis) of Authentic Christianity. I should simply be tolerant of these things, and let it slide by without responding? [:0]
It can't be both ways and really be fair to all, can it? [V] Jesus doesn't deserve the same standard of protection, courtesy and respect as Osho does??? [:I] Wow! Go figure!
Hari OM!
Doc
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You must be the change you wish to see in the world-Mahatma Ghandi
L&L
Dave
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Hi Doc:
It isn't about the people or the doctines here. It isn't even about being offended or not. It is about the practices, and what we can do with them here and now for best results. That is what we strive for in AYP.
No moderator here is going to play referee in a sectarian fight, real or imagined, nor try and parse every comment that is made. We do not know whose opinion about doctrine is right. It is the obvious excesses and personal attacks that will be regulated. That we do understand. We owe that to all the practitioners who come here looking for support and useful information.
It is up to the participants in this topic to try and make something useful out of it. If there is a sectarian accusation or argument that has to be made, please take it offline. We have a responsibility to all who are dropping in here every day -- many who are new visitors. The readership is at least 10 times the membership, and growing all the time. Please keep it in mind.
All ideas can be presented in creative ways that serve the needs of everyone involved. There is no need to offend, or take offense in these public forums. Obviously, we can only control our own side of it, and we should do the best we can with that.
Every tree is known by its own fruit, so extra labeling is not necessary. In extreme cases, the moderators will step in. It is rare around here, so if anyone feels like they are being picked on, better take a good look in the mirror.
If contributions that are useful for practices cannot be offered, then it is probably better to stay away, because the conflicted discussions don't really help anyone, and, in fact, drive people away. No one is served by that, so we are not going to let it go on for long. That's just how it is in this kind of environment.
The guru is in you.
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL
Hey, Phillip, I'm not that familiar with the differences between the spiral path and the straight path. I've read a couple of articles, here and there, but I was wondering what your take on it was or if you could direct me to a good website that discussed this in detail?
Thank you:
[:)]
VIL
According to the gnosis of Samael Aun Weor,
The straight path and the spiral path are most pronounced in Buddhism. These are choices made by Buddhas to either bask in the happiness of Nirvana, or to renounce Nirvana to become a Bodhisattva, which is someone who works for the benefit of all living beings. A bodhisattva works for the liberation of all souls. The former are called Pratyeka Buddhas, or sometimes "selfish buddhas" because they do not help others. The slowly perfect themselves and remove all their karma in the Spiral Path of Nirvana. Every millennium or so they reincarnate, teach a bit, remove some of their remaining karma and then return to Nirvana for another long period of bliss.
Bodhisattvas quickly remove all their karma in a single lifetime and by renouncing Nirvanic bliss, they in fact achieve the right to enjoy supranirvanic bliss after suffering for humanity for many Mahamanvantaras. These are the souls (tathagatas) on the Straight Path.
Mahayana and Tantrayana schools state (among other reasons) that "nirvana is samsara" because for the pratyeka buddhas, they must return to samsara and their karmic ties every so often, even though they are "Nirvanis." When this happens, they obviously must inhabit a new dense vehicle (body) and develop a personality (a personality is born and dies with each body) in order to interact with the current world. This means that, in the time it takes for the development of the body and the personality (lower vehicles), they can endanger the upper vehicles (atman-buddhi-manas) of becoming once again trapped in deep karmic debts. This apparently happens, especially in the Kali Yuga where materialism and illusion is most dense.
In terms of the Kabbalah, the Straight Path occurs when the human soul, Tiphereth, chooses to undertake the 13 Repentances of Pistis Sophia in order to conquer the 13 Aeons. Through this process Chokmah (Christ, the only begotten "Son of God") descends into Tiphereth ("Son of Man"), and thus Christ is incarnated in man.
Master Aberamentho (Jesus) came in order to teach men and Gods how to take the Straight Path.
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Thanks for that, Phillip, I'll have to do some research on the subject:
[:)]
Thanks again!
VIL
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL
Thanks for that, Phillip, I'll have to do some research on the subject:
[:)]
Thanks again!
VIL
Hi Vil,
FYI, I don't think there is a better site than http://gnosticteachings.org/ . But also, feel free to ask anything here, sometimes a personal answer is much better.
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Hi Philip,
I was just wondering how you know that Jesus of Nazareth was Master Aberamentho. Is this channeled information? If it is, do you know who channeled it?
Christi
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Although some minor variations of interpretation are found in the Kabbalah literature regarding the Sefirah Tifereth, it is generally identified with the 'Place of the Heart' or the 'Heart Center', and is thus akin to the 'Anahata Chakra' or 'Heart Chakra' of the Vedanta/Yoga Tradition.
The Sefirah Tifereth is normally associated with the second aspect of the soul, 'Ruah' or 'Spirit', sometimes specifically referred to as the 'Spirit of Intellectual Discernment', because it enables one to discern the essential natures of 'good' and 'evil', and their various manifestations.
Thus, when the Sacred Presence of Holy Wisdom and Divine Beauty is established and maintained in the Place of the Heart, Sefirah Tifereth perpetually mediates the soul's 'good' and 'evil' polarities by acting as a 'Central Pillar'...the Moral Foundation of Balanced Discernment...connecting and overseeing both the Rightward Path and the Leftward Path.
In this way, one becomes ever more conscious of that which constitutes the greatest good of self and others, as well as ever more conscious of the evil that potentially threatens the greatest good of self and others. Such Consciousness serves to motivate the soul towards Purity and Righteousness in order to maintain the Divine Presence of Wisdom and Beauty in the Heart Center. [8D]
These ideas can also be found in a few Christian Traditions as well. In Western Christianity, this would include the Roman Catholic and Anglican Catholic 'Devotions to the Sacred Heart of Jesus' and the 'Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus'. And in Eastern Christianity, these elements are also encountered in the Greek Orthodox 'Practice of the Prayer of the Heart' as described in the Philokalia Writings.
Regards ~
Doc
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quote:
Phillip:
Hi Vil,
FYI, I don't think there is a better site than http://gnosticteachings.org/ . But also, feel free to ask anything here, sometimes a personal answer is much better.
Thanks, Phillip, I appreciate your generosity, and website, and will look it over tomorrow.
Great post, Doc:
[:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
Greetings Chiron and Philip:
I hold no grudge against either of you. I also have no desire to engage the two of you in a 'my religion is better than your religion' debate and 'mud slinging' contest. In fact, quite sincerely, I feel great empathy and compassion for both of you. And I would like you to know that it saddens my heart to think that you apparently had an unpleasant 'church experience' or a hurtful religious upbringing, probably in a Christian church congregation of some kind.[:(] [V]
Not outside Christianity looking in, as if trying to peer through darkly tinted glass, but from the inside where I am able to fully and clearly see the intrinsic value of everything within, I can tell you from direct and profound personal experience that Eastern Orthodox Christianity does in fact possess an 'Inner Circle' compilation of esoteric spiritual writings, teachings, and practices.[8D]
Traditionally, from the earliest days of Christianity, these materials and practices have been accessible to all Orthodox, but have been primarily preserved and perpetuated by monastics and ordained clergymen. This is because individuals in these two groups most often represent the majority of those who thirst for such Knowledge, Revelation, and Illumination. [8D]
I am such an individual, having been both a monk and a clergyman. Thus, I humbly speak on behalf of this 'hidden tradition' by posting on topics such as this one! It's a dirty job sometimes, but someone needs to do it! [;)]
I am not at liberty to openly discuss some things, but can freely comment on other topics at my own discretion. And I will gladly do so if there is an interest, but only if the Christian bashing ceases and desists on this thread.[B)]
Happy Holidays!
Doc
No I have never had a hurtful religious upbringing. In fact, I had no religious upbringing. Not that my family was against religion, but lets just say that no-one in my family was ever interested in religion that much. I was born and raised in an Eastern Orthodox Christian country, where congregations and preaching are not common in the churches. Until my spiritual awakening most I have done in a church was light up a candle - and this goes for most people, if they even go to church that is. Now I have lived almost half of my life in a western county and have seen what the churches are being used for - community halls, place to gather, to chat and to meet other people and socialize. They are not being used for inner spiritual development.
I am not against the church and I am not against Christianity. I am against the beliefs of people who style themselves Christian yet do not follow Christ's teachings with their heart, and who do nothing to bring themselves closer to God. I am against the beliefs of fat priests who claim to represent God, yet they have not even beaten the most basic desire ie. hunger and the desire for taste. I have seen plenty of such priests in the Orthodox churches and on television and I have seen plenty of such people in the west also, from many religious denominations.
And in no way is this directed sarcastically at you Doc. From what I gather you are aware that the infinite cannot be found through the five senses or understood by the mind which processes data collected by the five limited senses. And that we must go beyond the senses and the mind to find the truth of ourselves. Through silence.. oops, here comes the preaching again, hahaha.
I consider religions and systems of spiritual practice which teach the seeker to go beyond the senses and the mind to be esoteric - inner spiritual sciences. This is AYP, kabbalah, Sufism, zen buddhism, taoism, theosophy, gnosticism and the 'Inner Circle' compilation of esoteric spiritual writings, teachings, and practices of the Eastern Orthodox Church (hesychasm?) that you speak of. I am not against any of these systems because as far as I know all provide a path to the truth. What I am against, is the prominence of the exoteric religions that teach little to no actual spiritual practice. The monastic orders that you speak of are not known about by the general populace, their teachings are not available to all 'Orthodox' , I know this for a fact.
These exoteric religions are making a mockery of the Bible by intepreting all of it literally. They make genuine truthseekers like david throw away the baby with the bathtub by making them reject the bible along with their perverted version of Christ's teaching.
For example: it is not enough to believe in "the only begotten Son" and that he suffered and gave his life on the cross for our salvation. At least it is not enough to believe it in a literal, exoteric sense. In that a man who was the only son of God (and we are just lowly creatures) came and suffered, for you and me, was nailed to the cross and was resurrected. It is all possible (although God does not have children because God does not reproduce for God already is everything, ofcourse, not everything is God), but I personally cannot know for sure if it truly happened, not two thousand years ago. I don't think you can either unless only through spiritual abilities. If I were to believe in that it would be called blind faith, and this leads to degradation. But if we believe that it is possible for us to imbody pure consciousness, to nurture the inner Christ within all of us through specific spiritual practice (which alot of times is suffering and pain), to become indifferent to this physical body for the development of our chakras and kundalini (aka putting our physical body on the spiritual cross) in order to achieve unity with infinity.. and have portions of this belief be constantly verified through direct experience, then we are bound to find the truth.
As a result of this thread I have been reading some of the gnostic teachings and noticed that a variety of traditions are being quoted in support of the material presented. From what I gather so far it is a universal teaching. No trace of sectarianism. I think you should not be against Gnosticism as much as you should be against the prominence of exoteric 'Christianity'. Even if some gnostics claim that they have the authentic keys to deciphering the bible (a claim which we cannot accept or reject with certainty just like we cannot know whether the Lineage of Apostolic Succession has really remained authentic, withstanding modification during two thousand years of Direct Oral Transmission and Ritual Initiation) there are still way more similarities between gnosticism and AYP and hesychasm than between gnosticism, AYP, hesychasm and the mainstream exoteric religions.
PS. I went to an Orthodox church yesterday and put up two candles. One for Love and one for Peace. I love you my friends. And I apologize for my aggressive methods of delivery. The demons have alot of sway over me, still, so I'm quite someways away from being a humble servant-of-God but we shall indeed be the change we wish to see in the world. :)
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Chiron, your better delivery makes all the difference in the world. Doc, if you find it imperfect still, I'd entreat you to focus on the improvement and encourage it. [:)]
From what I gather so far it is a universal teaching. No trace of sectarianism.
Where there is sectarianism, sometimes, there is sectarianism in teachings themselves, but often the teachings are not sectarian but the practicioners are very much so. So if you (not Chiron in particular) follow non-sectarian teachings, don't think that makes you free of it, because sectarianism is a human problem, like anger and hate and prejudice.
Until 'grace' removes them, these tendencies will be there to an extent. So the best we can do is improve our 'grace' by best spiritual practices on the one hand, and on the other give our 'ungrace' as little say in our outward behavior as possible, and our 'grace' as much say as is possible. That's the two-pronged inner and outer solution. An online forum is good training for the outer solution in a number of ways. It has the effect of making things and people seem even more outrageous, but it has the advantage of giving us time to think before we reply and make ourselves a good example of the outer solution. [;)]
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Greetings to All!
Great post, David. Tell it, Bubba...tell it! You da man! [:D] [8D]
Chiron:
Thanks for sharing your previous experiences with us. It sure sounds like a "bad church experience" to me. Sadly, this kind of experience is not uncommon anywhere. It is the exact reason why so many people in Western Culture, especially Europe and the Americas, are attracted to Zen Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and a wide variety of other non-Christian religious and spiritual paths.
Ironically, it is also the exact same reason why so many people in India and the Orient are attracted to Christianity, Islam, and a host of other non-Buddhist...non-Eastern religious and spiritual paths! In either case, I'll bet that the vast majority of these people, in both Eastern and Western Cultures, are rejecting the unpleasant experiences of their contact with the formal religious institutions, not necessarily the person of Christ, Moses, Krishna, or Buddha, and perhaps not the Spiritual Teachings of the Bible, Torah, Vedas, or Sutras. [:(]
In my own spiritual search, I have made observations like yours at every conceivable variety of church, synagogue, temple, zendo, mosque, monastery, ashram, etc. People are usually much the same everywhere, and "a few bad apples always spoil the lot", no matter what their 'brand' of religion. [V] I recently spotted a couple of automobile bumper-stickers which read: "I'm cool with Christ...but I have a problem with some of his followers"....and "Jesus loves you, and I'm trying to". [;)] [:D]
In the end, however, we must realize that the faults and short-comings of other people are external factors, resulting from human imperfections combined with spiritual immaturity, that are found everywhere that people congregate, whether for religious worship or any other group activity. To judge the inherent value of any religious path by these externals alone, or to assume what the spiritual potential of its teachings and practices will be by observing the 'official card carrying membership', is destined to be a less than favorable observation in most instances. [V]
When you enter a Church Temple, and light a candle in the Narthex, remember that the purpose in being there is a spiritual reason, to nurture your Soul with Unconditional Divine Love, to feel Eternal Hope and Increased Trust (Faith) in the Compassion and Mercy of Divine Providence to forsee our needs and to answer our call, to find an increased capacity for Forgiveness of self and others, specifically by establishing a personal, mystical relationship with God...through Christ. [^]
The social, political, economic, judgemental human externals need to be left at the door! This is why God told Moses to "remove your sandals, for you are standing on Holy Ground". That's why many ethnic Orthodox leave their shoes at the front door. This practice is also common at Hindu and Buddhist Temples, Islamic Mosques, and other places of religious worship throughout the world.
Look past the people, and their many imperfections and contradictions, in order to peek behind the veil of the iconostasis into the Sanctuary of God's Holy House...for it is there that the Revelation of Mysteries is revealed, and there that the soul is comforted and nourished. When there is also an opportunity for pleasant fellowship with other others in the Church Hall afterwards, then well and good, but we don't come to the Church Temple primarily for that.
Lastly, the esoteric books and writings are in fact available to all, but unless one already knows what to look for, will probably only be found in the Church or Monastery library. These works don't ever make it onto the New York Times Best-Seller List! [:p]
Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
Doc
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Philip,
I was just wondering how you know that Jesus of Nazareth was Master Aberamentho. Is this channeled information? If it is, do you know who channeled it?
Christi
In Gnosticism, Aberamentho is the Name (Word, Logos) of the Monad who's son had the terrestrial name of Jesus, or Yeshua. This is the name used in Pistis Sophia books, for example.
In esotericism, there is what is called "esoteric age." One's esoteric age may be 100, 200, 300, 5000 years old, etc. See These are, by the way, the esoteric meaning of many of the ages listed in the Old Testament, which can be used to understand certain when and how aspects of the path of the self realization of being occurs. Aberamentho's "esoteric age" would probably be a whole order of magnitude beyond any other monad in the "corner" of the universe, and is referred to by Samael Aun Weor as a Paramarthasatya, a monad whose natural center of gravity is the Ain (Absolute Abstract Space). He is a very special case, has He left the Ain in order to manifest specifically for the sake of this humanity, due its profound suffering and special "karma of the gods." He personally integrated his astral body with the earth in order to aid it, thus he really is the savior of this world. Yet, only if one knows how to make use of "gold" can one truly be rich. If you possess a pot of gold but you do not know the true value of it, then really it is valueless.
The following is a quote from the Pistis Sophia, with kabbalistic commentaries made in parenthesis:
quote:
Jesus said unto his disciples: "Draw near unto me." And they drew near unto him. He turned himself towards the four corners of the world, said the great name over their heads, blessed them and breathed (Aleph) into their eyes.
Jesus said unto them: "Look up and see what you may see."
And they raised their eyes and saw a great, exceedingly mighty light, which no human being in the world can describe.
Jesus said unto them anew: "Look away out of the light and see what you may see."
They said: "We see fire, water, wine and blood."
Jesus, -- that is Aberamentho, -- said unto his disciples: "Amen, I say unto you: I have brought nothing into the world when I came, save this fire (Shin), this water (Mem), this wine (the overflowing of Divine blessing out of transmutation of the waters of Yesod) and this (purified) blood (by Nous). I have brought (from Schamayim) the water (Mem) and the fire (Shin) out of the region of the Light of the lights (the world of Atziluth) of the Treasury of the Light (Ain Soph Aur); and I have brought the wine (the overflowing of Divine blessing out of transmutation of the waters of Yesod) and the blood out of the region of Barbelo (the Ain Soph Aur, the Solar Absolute, the Sun, the Atom Nous in the Heart). And after a little while my father sent me the Holy Spirit in the shape of a dove.
'And the fire (Shin), the water (Mem) and the wine (of Alchemy) are for the purification of all the sins of the world (the Microcosmos, the human being). The blood on the other hand was for a sign unto me because of the (venom blood in the) human body which (becomes purified blood through the effluvia of the Atom Nous in the Heart which) I received in the region of Barbelo (the Ain Soph Aur, the Solar Absolute, the Sun, which is) the great power of the Invisible God (the Ain Soph, Aelohim or Adhi-Buddha). The breath (Aleph, the three Supernals in Atziluth) on the other hand advances towards all souls and will lead them unto the region of the Light.
"For this cause have I said unto you: "I am (Eheieh) come to cast fire (Shin) on the earth (Malkuth),' -- that is: I am (Eheieh) come to purify the sins of the world with fire (of Alchemy).
"And for this cause have I said to the Samaritan woman: 'If you knew of the gift of God, and who it is who say unto you: Give me to drink, -- you would beg of me, and I will give you living water (Schamayim), and there would be in you a spring (a Mem) which welled up for everlasting life.'
"And for this cause I took also (in Yesod, the Ninth Sphere) a cup (a Yoni, the Holy Grail) of wine (of Alchemy), blessed it and give it unto you and said: 'This is the blood (fire of the Ain Soph Aur) of the covenant (Perfect Matrimony) which (the Atom Nous) will be poured out for you (through scientific Chastity or sexual transmutation) for the forgiveness of your sins (Karma)."
'And for this cause they have also thrust (Shin, the fire through) the spear (the Iod) into my side (left ventricle of my heart), and (by means of sexual alchemy) there came forth water (Schamayim from the Mem in Yesod) and blood (Fire through the Atom Nous from the Mem above). "And these are the mysteries of the (Cross that hides the) Light which forgive sins; that is to say, these are the namings and the names of the Light (Iod, He, Vav, He)." - Pistis Sophia
See this glossary for finding your way through these Hebrew terms: http://www.gnosticteachings.org/component/option,com_glossary/Itemid,115/
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quote:
The narratives of the Doctrine are its cloak. The simple look only at the garment - that is, upon the narrative of the Doctrine; more they know not. The instructed, however, see not merely the cloak, but what the cloak covers. - The Zohar, iii.
The Mysteries of the Faith (are) not to be divulged to all ... It is requisite to hide in a mystery the wisdom spoken. - St. Clement of Alexandra, Stromateis
These quotes are taken straight off the title page of Book II, Part II: "Esoteric Tenets Corroborated in Every Scripture", of the Secret Doctrine by H.P.B. ( http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-2-01.htm ). There one can find IMMENSE information, if one knows how to read it. One really needs to know quite a bit before even having the ability to digest the information on these pages, thus, in my opinion, is the reason why the content of these pages is largely ignored by common man and woman.
In these pages one will find that Sacred Phallism is central to the Bible and to, indeed, the entire Jewish religion (Vol. 2, Page 471). That the Star of David is a tantric symbol (Vol. 2, Page 592).
Read the following if you are interested in the actual quote:
quote:
The Hindu Lingham is identical with "Jacob's Pillar" -- most undeniably. But the difference, as said, seems to consist in that the esoteric significance of the Lingham was too truly sacred and metaphysical to be revealed to the profane and the vulgar; hence its superficial appearance was left to the speculations of the mob. Nor would the Aryan Hierophant and Brahmin, in their proud exclusiveness and the satisfaction of their knowledge, go to the trouble of concealing its primeval nakedness under cunningly devised fables; whereas the Rabbi, having interpreted the symbol to suit his own tendencies, had to veil the crude significance; and this served a double purpose -- that of keeping his secret to himself and of exalting himself in his supposed monotheism over the heathen, whom his Law commanded him to hate. A commandment now gladly accepted by the Christian too, in spite of another and later commandment -- "love each other." Both India and Egypt had and have their sacred lotuses, symbolic of the same "Holy of Holies" -- the Lotus growing in the water, a double feminine symbol -- the bearer of its own seed and root of all. Viraj and Horus are both male symbols, emanating from androgyne Nature, one from Brahma and his female counterpart Vach, the other, from Osiris and Isis -- never from the One infinite God. In the Judaeo-Christian systems it is different. Whereas the lotus, containing Brahma, the Universe, is shown growing out of Vishnu's navel, the Central point in the Waters of Infinite Space, and whereas Horus springs from the lotus of the Celestial Nile -- all these abstract pantheistic ideas are dwarfed and made terrestrially concrete in the Bible: one is almost inclined to say that in the esoteric they are grosser and still more anthropomorphic, than in their exoteric rendering. Take as an example the same symbol, even in its Christian application; the lilies in the hand of the Archangel Gabriel (Luke i. 28). In Hinduism -- the "Holy of Holies" is a universal abstraction, whose dramatis personae are Infinite Spirit and Nature; in Christian Judaism, it is a personal God, outside of that Nature, and the human Womb -- Eve, Sarah, etc., etc.; hence, an anthropomorphic phallic god, and his image -- man.
Thus it is maintained, that with regard to the contents of the Bible, one of two hypotheses has to be admitted. Either behind the symbolic substitute -- Jehovah -- there was the unknown, incognizable Diety, the Kabalistic Ain-Soph; or, the Jews have been from the beginning, no better than the dead-letter Lingham-** worshippers of the India of to-day. We say it was the former; and that, therefore, the secret or esoteric worship of the Jews was the same Pantheism that the Vedantin philosophers are reproached with to-day; Jehovah was a substitute for purposes of an exoteric national faith, and had no importance or reality in the eyes of the erudite priests and philosophers -- the Sadducees, the most refined as the most learned of all the Israelite sects, who stand as a living proof with their contemptuous rejection of every belief, save the LAW. For how could those who invented the stupendous scheme now known as the Bible, or their successors who knew, as all Kabalists do, that it was so invented for a popular blind -- how could they, we ask, feel reverence for such a phallic symbol and a NUMBER, as Jehovah is shown most undeniably to be in the Kabalistic works? How could anyone worthy of the name of a philosopher, and knowing the real secret meaning of their "pillar of Jacob," their Bethel, oil-anointed phalli, and their "Brazen Serpent," worship such a gross symbol, and minister unto it, seeing in it their "Covenant" -- the Lord Himself! Let the reader turn to Gemara Sanhedrin and judge. As various writers have shown, and as brutally stated in Hargrave Jennings' Phallicism (p. 67) "We know from the Jewish records that the Ark contained a table of stone. . . . that stone was phallic, and yet identical with the sacred name Jehovah . . . which written in unpointed Hebrew with four letters, is J-E-V-E or JHVH (the H being merely an aspirate and the same as E). This process leaves us the two letters I and V (in another form U); then if we place the I in the U we have the 'Holy of Holies'; we also have the Lingha and Yoni and Argha of the Hindus, the Isvara and 'supreme Lord'; and here we have the whole secret of its mystic and arc-celestial import, confirmed in itself by being identical with the Linyoni of the Ark of the Covenant."
Now, concerning the tantrism of the “Star of David” and the “Cross,” we can read the following:
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Ragon gives in his Maconnerie Occulte a very good illustration of the "hieroglyphical senary," as he calls our double equilateral triangle, [star of david image]. He shows it as the symbol of the commingling of the "philosophical three fires and the three waters, whence results the procreation of the elements of all things. The same idea is found in the Indian equilateral double triangle. For, though it is called in that country the sign of Vishnu, yet in truth it is the symbol of the Triad (or the Trimurti). For, even in the exoteric rendering, the lower triangle with the apex downward, is the symbol of Vishnu, the god of the moist principle and water ("Nara-yana," or the moving Principle in Nara, water;**) while the triangle, with its apex upward, is Siva, the Principle of Fire, symbolized by the triple flame in his hand. (See the bronze statue of Tripurantika Siva, "Mahadeva destroying Tripurasura," at the museum of the India House). It is these two interlaced triangles -- wrongly called "Solomon's seal," which also form the emblem of our Society -- that produce the Septenary and the Triad at one and the same time, and are the Decad, whatever way this sign is examined, as all the ten numbers are contained therein. For with a point in the middle or centre, thus it is a sevenfold sign; its triangles denote number 3; the two triangles show the presence of the binary; the triangles with the central point common to both yield the quaternary; the six points are the senary; and the central point, the unit; the quinary being traced by combination, as a compound of two triangles, the even number, and of three sides in each triangle, the first odd number. This is the reason why Pythagoras and the ancients made the number six sacred to Venus, since "the union of the two sexes, and the spagyrisation of matter by triads are necessary to develop the generative force, that prolific virtue and tendency to reproduction which is inherent in all bodies."
Belief in "Creators," or the personified Powers of Nature, is in truth no polytheism, but a philosophical necessity. Like all the other planets of our system, the Earth has seven Logoi -- the emanating rays of the one "Father-Ray" -- the PROTOGONOS, or the manifested "Logos" -- he who sacrifices his Esse (or flesh, the Universe) that the world may live and every creature therein have conscious being.
Numbers 3 and 4 are respectively male and female, Spirit and Matter, and their union is the emblem of life eternal in spirit on its ascending arc, and in matter as the ever resurrecting element -- by procreation and reproduction. The spiritual male line is vertical ; the differentiated matter-line is horizontal; the two forming the cross or [symbol of cross image].
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-2-12.htm
H.P.B. does not mention that Sixth Arcanum of the Tarot is also related with tantrism, see:
http://www.gnosticteachings.org/courses/twenty-two-arcana/arcanum-6-indecision.html
http://www.gnosticteachings.org/courses/twenty-two-arcana/arcanum-6-transcription.html
All of this gives us tremendous information to meditate upon, to extract the conscious values found therein and deposit them within the depths of our personal consciousness.
According to ancient traditions that exist throughout the world, and with my own personal experience, to cross the lingam and yogi, to sing the mantras such as I. A. O., and to disconnect without having reached orgasm or ejaculation is the highest form of sexual transmutation. The essential thing is to never loose a drop of semen, or to waste the sexual energy in any form. This is why anuttarayoga tantra, the Highest Yoga Tantra of Tibet, outlined in the Kalachakra literature, states that one must NEVER loose the sexual energy. Let us remember, for those of us who have read some Theosophical texts, H.P.B. was undeniably in connection with Kalachakra in some form, this is how she wrote The Voice of the Silence which has very similar wording to the aforementioned sacred text.
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In Tibetan Buddhism, especially if you look at the iconography of the deities with their consorts, you can see a lot of very explicit sexual symbolism which often gives the wrong impression. Actually, in this case the sexual organ is utilized, but the energy movement which is taking place is, in the end, fully controlled. The energy should never be let out. This energy must be controlled and eventually returned to other parts of the body. What is required for a Tantric practitioner is to develop the capacity to utilize one's faculties of bliss and the blissful experiences which are specifically generated due to the flow of regenerative fluids within one's own energy channels. It is crucial to have the ability to protect oneself from the fault of emission. It is not just a purely ordinary sexual act. And here we can see there is a kind of special connection with celibacy. Especially in the practice of the Kalachakra Tantra, this precept of protecting oneself from the emission of energy is considered to be very important. The Kalachakra literature mentions three types of blissful experience: one is the blissful experience induced by the flow of energy; one is the immutable blissful experience; and one is the mutable blissful experience. To me, when Buddha took the celibacy vow, at that level he did not explain all the reasons behind that rule or that discipline. The complete explanation comes when we know the Tantrayana system.
– The Fourteenth Dalai Lama, The Heart of the Buddha’s Path
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Hi Chiron,
Great post, it was a joy to read.[:)]
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Chiron wrote:
I am not against the church and I am not against Christianity. I am against the beliefs of people who style themselves Christian yet do not follow Christ's teachings with their heart, and who do nothing to bring themselves closer to God. I am against the beliefs of fat priests who claim to represent God, yet they have not even beaten the most basic desire ie. hunger and the desire for taste. I have seen plenty of such priests in the Orthodox churches and on television and I have seen plenty of such people in the west also, from many religious denominations.
I really don't think we need to be "against" anything. It takes so much energy that could be used for much more positive things. Once we start being against something, the list of things that we could be against is almost endless. Everyone is working out their own karma, and they are doing what they need to do, as we are. I once heard that when we reach a fairly high stage on the path we enter the causal realms where we are able to directly change the world and history merely by using our thought. "Wow" I thought, "I can't wait to get to that stage, there are so many terrible things that I want to change about the world". Then I heard that once we reach that stage, we realize that everything in creation is perfect, and is happening for a reason, and we wouldn't want to change a single thing. I thought I'd throw this in, as it gives a different angle on being "against" something. If God is letting something happen, he might just have a reason that he isn't telling us.
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we shall indeed be the change we wish to see in the world. :)
Now you're talking[:)]. This is where we need to put all our energies.
Christi
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Christi:
...everything in creation is perfect, and is happening for a reason
wonderful post Christi [:)]
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"I write of what was from the Beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked upon and our hands have touched: The Word of Life." 1 John 1.1
"And the message which we have heard from Him and announce to you is this: GOD IS LIGHT, and in Him is no Darkness." 1 John 1.5
"He who says that he is in The Light, yet hates his brothers, is in the Darkness even until now. He who loves his brothers abides in The Light, and for him there is no stumbling. But he who hates his brothers is in the Darkness, and walks in the Darkness, and does not know where he goes, because the Darkness has blinded his eyes." 1 John 2.9-11
"For how can he who does not love his brothers, whom he can see, love God whom he does not see?" 1 John 4.20
"If we love one another, God abides in us and His Love is perfected in us." 1 John 4.12
Just a few very simple, easy to understand Biblical verses, which reflect the True Teachings of Christianity from the beginning, to compare with the very complex and difficult to understand gnostic writings that have been posted here thus far.
Hari OM!
Doc
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I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able. – 1 Cor 3:2
Let everyone receive what they are able to receive, and gain benefit upon the level they are able to.
Kabel = to receive, as in Kabbalah. Paul was surely well versed in the kabbalah.
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Hey, Phillip, I have been researching Daath and the Abyss and was wondering if you could explain this as it relates to the Sephiroth of bodily experience.
Thank you,
VIL
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Philip:
"No man can receive anything of his own will, except it is given to him from Heaven." John 3:27
"Who makes you to differ from another? What do you have that was not given to you? And if you did receive it, why do you boast and glory as if you had not received it?" 1 Corinthians 4:7
"Therefore, do not judge before the time, until the Lord comes and brings to light the hidden things of darkness and reveals the thoughts of the heart..." 1 Corinthians 4:5
"So let every one of you, according to the gift he has received from God, minister the same to your fellowmen, like good stewards of the manifold Grace of God." 1 Peter 4:10
The Traditional Orthodox Jewish and Orthodox Christian Prayer Posture:
http://www.jesuswalk.com/greatprayers/images/jh_hartley_moses_prayer419x600.jpg
(click on picture for larger image)
Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
Happy Holidays!
Doc
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL
Hey, Phillip, I have been researching Daath and the Abyss and was wondering if you could explain this as it relates to the Sephiroth of bodily experience.
Thank you,
VIL
Hi Vil,
Daath means "knowledge" and is what is called the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in Genesis. The other tree, the Tree of Life, is what is commonly spoken of in kabbalah. The second tree, the Tree of Knowledge, is Daath itself. This is the Tree of Gnosis.
Daath is the "hidden" sphere, it is therefore the hidden knowledge. But what type of knowledge? How is "daath" used in the Bible? Let us take a look at few quotes:
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And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived... Gen 4:1
Adam knew his wife again; and she bore a son... Gen 4:25
And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived... Gen 4:17
Behold new, I have two daughters which have not known a man... Gen 19:18
Four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male... Judges 21:12
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing that I known not a man? Luke 1:34
Daath is tantric knowledge, which means: the knowledge of how to harness the energies manifested through the crossing of elements. Remember that tantrism does not mean "sex," it means continuum, or loop of thread, which is implying the continuous current of energies that is flowing everywhere. There many means of crossing: wisdom and compassion, man and wife...
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The harmonious march of a system of worlds depends on the cross - the magnetic point where the two forces (centrifugal and centripetal) are found equilibrated. Therefore, the power which supports the worlds is in that magnetic Cross of space.
A masculine cell (named zoosperm) is crossed with a feminine cell (named ovum) in order for the human entity, the outcome of this cross, to emerge. Consequently, the Human Being is the outcome of the crossing of a masculine zoosperm with the feminine ovum.
Nothing can come into existence without the power of the Cross.
The sincere and ideal shaking of hands crosses and harmonizes the mutual affection of two people. Therefore the Cross of the handshake originates the living affection between two souls.
Walking on the street, a handsome youngster finds an attractive damsel; they glance at each other, and from that prodigious, subtle and impalpable Cross (yet palpable in its magical power) affection, love, is born, which later organizes a home. Their Cross will produce astonishing effects, such as the multiplication of their species, the grandiosity of a country, and perhaps the birth of a new genius who will increase the progress of science or philosophy for the sake of the world. The magnetic crossing of two views shows and demonstrates that power is in the Cross.
A Seed is introduced within the earth and it crosses its power with the chemical elements which constitute the structure of the planet; thus, trees, flowers, fruits and new seeds are produced, which will eventually increase their species and multiply them ad infinitum. Therefore, the power is in their Cross.
Nothing new can exist, nor can the old be transformed without the Cross.
http://www.gnosticteachings.org/the-teachings-of-gnosis/the-writings-of-samael-aun-weor/the-power-is-in-the-cross.html
How is Daath the cross? See the the following images:
http://kalignosis.com/images/TheHolySpirit.jpg
http://www.gnosticteachings.org/images/stories/kabbalah/daath-briah.gif
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The Hebraic Kabbalists speak unto us about the mysterious Daath that appears in the Tree of Life, the Sephirah that has no designated divine name, nor Angelic host of any type, and that has neither a mundane sign, planet nor element.
Image Daath, the Sephirah of Hebrew Mystery, is produced by the Esoteric conjunction of Shiva-Shakti, Osiris-Isis, perpetually united in Yesod, the Foundation, the Ninth Sephirah, the Ninth Sphere, the sex, but hidden by the mysteries of Daath which has the Tantric knowledge, which is processed with the Sahaja Maithuna, or Sexual Magic, that when correctly utilized permits the Intimate Self-realization of the Being.
It is necessary that all of us profoundly reflect, that we deeply comprehend all of this. He and She are united in the Cubic Stone of Yesod, which is the sex. The perfect Tantric knowledge is the outcome of the union of He and She with which we can internally Self-realize ourselves in all the levels of the Being.
http://www.gnosticteachings.org/the-teachings-of-gnosis/the-writings-of-samael-aun-weor/daath---tantric-knowledge.html
Daath is the Tree of Good and Evil because "good" is just evolution of energies, and "evil" is the devolution of energies. If you wish to modify the "good" and "evil" currents within yourself, the sexual act is the way to do it.
The answer to your question is that Daath is the Larynx (throat) of God. The top triangle of the tree of life (Kether, Chokmah, Binah) are the "head," the "crown of life" spoken of in Revelation. If you place the image of a man so that these three form a crown, Daath is placed at the throat. Why the larynx? Because it is from the larynx that the creative Word comes from. When God speaks, he Creates: Let there be light! And all creative acts are sexual acts. Creativity is sexuality of another name.
The larynx of everyone is sexual. We know this through our own lives, when, by becoming sexually mature, our voices changed due to the sexual activity of our nervous system. Daath (throat) is related with Yesod (sexual organs). This is why we pronounce sacred mantrums, in order to transmute the sexual energy found in Yesod. Pronouncing a mantra during the sexual act transmutes the energies upwardly; the vapor of the seminal (sexual) energy rises up the whole body, vitalizing it. This is also why the common man and woman cannot help but scream like animals when they fornicate, this is the instinctive "evil" or downwardly influence that "daath," tantrism, can imply upon the nervous system in order to forcefully expel the sexual energy down from the superior worlds to the inferior worlds. There is a reason why there is an instinctive push to expel the sexual energy via orgasm, and to scream like an animal when it happens, why it feels so "natural;" if you want to know why then read the chapter entitled The Liberation of Good and Evil, here: http://kalignosis.com/book/13TheLiberationOfGoodAndEvil.php
What we want, through sexual transmutation and psychological transformation, is the following: http://www.gnosticteachings.org/images/stories/kabbalah/star.gif
The Abyss is Klipoth, Hell, the Inferno, the Amenti, etc., etc., etc. The Infradimensions of nature. The Abyss is the Nine Spheres of Hell, the inverted Nine Spheres of Heaven, which is the Tree of life.
http://www.gnosticteachings.org/images/stories/kabbalah/ten-spheres.gif
Within the personal Abyss lie all of our defects. It is necessary to submerge one's self into the Abyss to extract all the values that we currently have trapped there, in side of Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, and Pride. When we extract the values from our defects, the result is virtue and awakened consciousness. The Abyss is our subconsciousness, our unconsciousness, and our infraconsciousness. These are 49 levels of the mind, the 49 demons of Yaldabaoth (see Pistis Sophia), and every level of the mind contains a demon that is us. We comprehend our own vices and defects through meditation. This is why so many heroes enter into Hell to perform a great task, it is the symbolism of dieing to one's sin. When one dies to everything they are (the ego), then they are "dead," and when one is dead, only then can they resurrect. Because with Death, one kills Death, and becomes immortal.
When we "eat" of the Tree of Good and Evil, in other words when one wastes the sexual energy through orgasm, Jehovah Elohim says, "you shall surely die," this is the death of the spirit. This is Cain being born and killing Abel. But when one "kills" death by psychologically dieing, symbolized by the decapitation (head, ego, "I") of John, then one "kills" death, which is Cain, and enters back into the Garden of Eden. Eden means "voluptuousness." One enters Eden through the perfect sexual transmutation of the Four Rivers of Eden. Each river is a part of one's nervous system. So when one kills "death" (ego) then one can enter back into Eden and eat from the the Tree of Life, which is immortality.
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And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
The land of Havilah is our own physical body, and the gold of this land is the solar atoms from our seminal system, that is to say, the semen’s potable gold.
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
This second river is the Cephalo-Rachis liquid, which is the other pole of our seminal system. With it we encompass the whole land of Ethiopia, that is to say, the whole of our head and throat, since we form the brain and throat with the Cephalo-Rachis liquid.
And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. (Genesis 2:10-14)
The river which goes toward the east of Assyria and the river Euphrates are the two poles of the woman’s seminal system. Therefore, the woman is towards the east of us, because she is the door of Paradise and this door is always towards the east. Eden is sex itself. Thus, the Tree of Life is within Eden itself. The great Hierophant Eliphas Levi said that the Great Magical Arcanum is the Tree of Life and that “at the foot of this Tree is the source of the four mysterious rivers of Eden.” Yet, he fearfully says in a moment of consternation: “Here I must pause, and I fear that already I have said too much.” This is the formidable, unutterable secret which no Initiate has ever dared to reveal. This is the formidable secret of the “Great Arcanum.” The four rivers of Eden are the sexual forces of man and woman. The Tree of Life is in the midst of these four rivers of Eden." - The Revolution of Beelzebub
All of this information and much, much more is explained in the four Gnostic Kabbalah lessons.
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Phillip, thank you for taking your time with such an informative post. I'm very grateful!!
[:)][:)]
VIL
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL
Phillip, thank you for taking your time with such an informative post. I'm very grateful!!
[:)][:)]
VIL
You are welcome to it! It is best, in these times, that this information be freely given to whosoever is looking for it.
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Happy New Year to All!
I normally wouldn't even bother responding to any of the material which Philip has posted here, if it was presented in a more neutral and less offensive fashion, but since it is allowed to be insistently posted as the only accurate perspective on Christian Doctrine, and the only genuine esoteric interpretation of Biblical Scriptures and symbolism, I feel compelled to be a dissenting voice of disapproval regarding this Gnostic information.
St. Paul's advice regarding such spurious material, as it relates specifically to authentic Christianity, is as valid today as it was when he initially wrote it in the 1st Century A.D.:
"Beware lest any man mislead you through philosophy and vain deceit, depending on human traditions derived from the elements of nature, and not according to the Teachings of Christ, in Whom the Fullness of God is embodied. Only in Him has All been made complete, for He is the Head of All Angelic Orders and Powers." Colossians 2:8-10
Although this Gnostic material is certainly interesting on some levels, it has always been so complex, both in content and in interpretation, as to necessitate a serious course of study in order to grasp any real understanding of its eclectic mixture of confused theology, clever philosophical devices and complicated mythological constructions. Very few people in any generation thus far have been willing to invest the kind of time and energy needed to pursue such overtly occult studies just for the sake of discovering whether any real spiritual benefits may or may not be forthcoming from the effort.
From the very outset of Gnosticism, beginning with the writings of Valentinus and his followers, the overwhelming majority of devout Christians who investigated and studied the Gnostic theology in depth judged these teachings to be in direct theological opposition to both the received Oral Transmission of Apostolic Succession and the Authentic Scriptural Tradition of Christianity. Even after the Great Schism of 1054 A.D., in which the Eastern Orthodox Church and Western Roman Catholic Church separated over issues of theology, both Eastern and Western Churches continued to view the Gnostic teachings and theology as incorrect and unacceptable, as did the newly formed Churches of the Protestant Reformation in the Christian West several hundred years later.
As a result, Christians of all major Church affiliations in both the East and West have always rejected this so-called Christian Gnosticism as heresy which DOES NOT represent the True Teachings of Jesus Christ the Messiah (Yeshua Ha-Mashiach). Thus, the Gnostic Tradition has never gained a widespread following within mainstream Christianity, and probably never will.
The Gnostic Philosophy and Mythology has long remained a mostly hidden, proprietary body of seriously questionable material primarily advocated by a few zealous adherents in each generation, who present themselves as the self-appointed guardians and torchbearers of 'secret esoteric doctrines', unknown to the masses, descended from a lineage of teachers and writings hardly anyone has ever heard of.
Given the claims of its proponents, a number of very serious and important questions arise. Namely, by whose spiritual authority should the Gnostic Teachings and Theology be accepted as the most authentic and accurate interpretations of Jewish and Christian Holy Scriptures and Biblical Symbolism? And who can be pointed out from the Gnostic Tradition as its Spiritual Luminaries....i.e. those who have personally achieved the Highest Levels of Spiritual Attainment in demonstration of the practical value and validity of the Gnostic Teachings and Methods?
Who has appeared from among the Gnostics akin to Sri Ramakrishna (Hindu Advaita Vedanta), Pir Hazrat Inayat Khan (Sufism), Milarepa (Tibetan Bon/Buddhism), St. John the Divine (Eastern Christianity), St. Francis of Assisi (Western Christianity), Ibn'Arabi (Islam), Rabbi Yizchak Luria (Jewish Kabbalah)...to name but a few of the innumerable examples of Saints, Sadgurus, Sages, Pirs, Arhats, Bodhisattvas, Rabbis, Roshis, Rinpoches, et al, of other Spiritual Traditions who have inspired and instructed humanity with the superb personal examples of their Godly lives, as well as with their spiritual writings and/or teachings? [:(]
If the Gnostic Tradition really represents the 'True Esoteric Teachings' as claimed, why has it not produced a greater number of notable and familiar individuals in demonstration of its supposedly superior spiritual potential? It would seem, therefore, that Gnosticism is focused solely on the intellectual rationalism of its mythological doctrines, primarily for its few adherents, not on the collective spiritual betterment of humanity as a whole.
Hari OM!
Doc
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quote:
Samael Aun Weor: So, you became amazed with my statement about the three brains? Well, comprehend me: We have the intellectual brain within the cranium. We also have the motor brain within the superior part of the dorsal spine, this is the capital centre of movements. And the emotional brain is within the solar plexus and other sympathetic centres. Did you understand me now?
Hey, Phillip, I read some of Samuel Aun Weor's Writings, yesterday, and agree with what he said with the above, since I was investigating various dream states beforehand, as related to the area of the brain called Pons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pons
This was a great find, as it relates to my experience/research of the REM State of consciousness during the wake state. I have more exploring to do and have to connect these centers with the chakra centers!
[:)]
VIL
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Hi Philip,
By the grace of an "accident" I happen to fall right into this highly interesting discussion over here, but I am finding that I don't have any time currently to read everything as yet. So I decided to just read your original post and I don't know whether this helps you, but the original coding of the I Ching equals Dane Rudhyar's interpretation of the Astrological Mandala. I just don't really have an idea whether this elucidates, or should elucidate or what, but maybe you find it interesting:-))
Ciao!
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quote:
Given the claims of its proponents, a number of very serious and important questions arise. Namely, by whose spiritual authority should the Gnostic Teachings and Theology be accepted as the most authentic and accurate interpretations of Jewish and Christian Holy Scriptures and Biblical Symbolism? And who can be pointed out from the Gnostic Tradition as its Spiritual Luminaries....i.e. those who have personally achieved the Highest Levels of Spiritual Attainment in demonstration of the practical value and validity of the Gnostic Teachings and Methods?
Hello Doc and other friends,
Doc we must amicably agree that we do not agree on the history of Christianity, and that there is obviously no amount of dialogue that would, or should solve this.
To me it is obvious that:
All the founders of Christianity were, indeed, Gnostic.
The Gnostic Catholic Church is the original church founded by Jesus Christ, whose first pontiff was Peter.
All religions are necessary and true Gnostics are not against any religion.
The Gnostic Catholic Church is found in the Superior Worlds. The student must learn how to travel in the astral body to visit the Gnostic Temples which exists in the Superior Worlds. There one can speak directly to the Angels, the Saints, the Buddhas, the Masters, etc. There one can investigate the mysteries of life and death. But first it is necessary to awaken.
The Gnostic Movement is giving the keys in order to awaken the consciousness in a single lifetime in order to free people from the immense darkness they suffer.
quote:
Saints such as: Saturninus of Antioch, the celebrated Kabbalist, belonged to the Primitive Christian Catholic Gnostic Church; Simon the Magician, who unfortunately deviated; Carpocrates, who founded several Gnostic convents in Spain; Marcion of Ponto, Saint Thomas, Saint Valentine; the Great Master of Major Mysteries called Saint Augustine; Tertullian; Saint Ambrose; Irenaeus; Hippolytus; Epiphanius; Clement of Alexandria; Mark, the Great Gnostic who took care of the Holy Gnostic Unction and left us the extraordinary teachings about the path of sexual forces through the twelve zodiacal doors of the human organism. Also Cerdon, Empedocles, Saint Geronimo and many other saints were members of the Primitive Christian Catholic Gnostic Church from which the current Roman sect deviated. - The Perfect Matrimony by Samael Aun Weor
In history there were many sects who called themselves, or were called by others "gnostic," but really they were not.
Anyone who has "gnosis" is by corollary a Gnostic.
There is one Truth and this truth is found at the heart of all religions, nevertheless, because man is imperfect, he always deviates and manipulates the doctrine, consciously or unconsciously. Buddha rightly stated that his doctrine would become unrecognizable after 500 years.
quote:
Very few people in any generation thus far have been willing to invest the kind of time and energy needed to pursue such overtly occult studies just for the sake of discovering whether any real spiritual benefits may or may not be forthcoming from the effort.
I am actually quite young and can count the number of years I have studied any form of religion, philosophy, mysticism, occultism, etc., on the fingers of one hand. And yet, the spiritual benefits palpitate with every beat of my heart. The purpose of my posts are not to offend, but to help show the ways to comprehend one's self and transcend the state of suffering that exists within everyone.
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Djezus Christ Philip, I personally can see that you actually do know what you are talking about. And Doc you will remember how your first entry-in-this-forum-post reclaiming your own gnostic tradition made me jump from delight.. and I told you then about this experience I had once in Cyprus going with my sister to the top of a little mountain where there was a holy church, for one person.... by the way that was true. You had the audacity to send me a picture that had something to do with emancipation of women or something, which frankly really offended me. But it didn't matter, I just never replied to you on that one:-)
Anyways, I actually did get some sleep this night, I have now proven to myself that it is under certain specific circumstances possible to not go crazy and not sleep either, providing a forum of truly wonderful people is prepared to help you there, and again I thank you for your help, for I really needed it indeed I hope to downgrade myself soon and get into normal states of communication:-)))
Love to all
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quote:
This was a great find, as it relates to my experience/research of the REM State of consciousness during the wake state. I have more exploring to do and have to connect these centers with the chakra centers!
There are three primary nervous systems:
1. Intellectual - Cerebrospinal Nervous System - Brain - Throne of The Father (+)
2. Emotional - Grand Sympathetic Nervous System - Heart - Throne of the Son (Heart) (-)
3. Motor-instinctive-sexual - Vagus or Parasympathetic - Sex - Throne of the Holy Spirit (=)
Every chakra has its relationship with all three. Each chakra does have a specific relation to a gland or organ, however. This is detailed in Fundamental Notions of Endocrinology and Criminology by Samael Aun Weor.
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
"The Gnostic Catholic Church is the original church founded by Jesus Christ, whose first pontiff was Peter."
Philip:
This is undoubtedly the most erroneous statement, IMO, that you have posted thus far. Clearly, you are not educated in factual Christian Church History, so perhaps I can assist you in filling in the gaps. [:)]
The Unified Christian Church of the first 1,000+ years of Christianity, founded by Jesus Christ, was and is the Greek Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church. This is a historical fact! It is the oldest, original Christian Church from its beginning at the first Pentecost. The original Apostles and Disciples of Jesus were all members of this Unified Orthodox Church, which is why it is referred to as 'Catholic'...i.e. Universally United Everywhere in Correct Belief (Orthodoxis) and Correct Practice (Orthopraxis)...and 'Apostolic'...i.e. disseminated in a Direct Lineage of Oral Transmission and Scriptural Interpretation from the Original Apostles. [8D]
The Christian communities, for example, to whom St. Paul wrote his New Testament Letters or Epistles...i.e Collosians, Corinthians, Galatians, et al, were at that time, and are still today, Greek Orthodox Christian Congregations. For 1,000 years, to be a Christian was to be Greek Orthodox.
Of the original five Apostolically Founded Church Patriarchates (Seats of Primary Bishops)...namely Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Byzantium (later renamed Constantinople), and Rome...the Roman Church attempted to assert its dominance over the other four Apostolic Patriarchates as 'First Among Equals' for several centuries. Failing to do so, Rome separated from them to become an independent Apostolic Church in the so-called Great Schism of 1054 A.D. The Roman Church remained Orthodox in her Beliefs and Practices for several hundred more years, though, except for an addition to the Nicene Creed called the Filioque, before beginning to independently change the original Orthodox Doctrines without the majority vote approval of the other Apostolically Founded Churches as originally done.
The Protestant Reformation later split the Roman Church into many independent church factions, which number in the hundreds today in the Christian West. Eastern Orthodox Christianity, however, has remained united to this day, never adding to or deleting from the original Christian Doctrines of Faith established by the Ecumenical Councils of the first three hundred years of Christian History, which were unanimously agreed upon by all of the Patriarchs, including the Roman Bishop, and their local church congregations by a majority vote of the community members.
Those who have any interest in seeing and experiencing this Eastern form of Christian worship from the Apostolic Era can still do so by attending a 'Divine Liturgy' at any Eastern Orthodox Church on any Sunday of the year. Regardless of the ethnic affiliation of these Orthodox Christian Churches...i.e. Greek, Russian, Romanian, Armenian, Ethiopian, Coptic, Bulgarian, Serbian, and so forth...Belief and Practice is the same everywhere, differing only in local ethnic customs and the recognition of national ethnic Saints in the yearly Calendar of Feast Days as minor variations.
The Gnostic Catholic Church, however, was founded in 1907 by Jean Bricaud, Gerard Encausse, and Louis-Sophrone Fugairon...all of whom were members of the Gnostic Church of France, founded in 1890 by Jules Doinel. Doinel abdicated his position as Patriarch of the Gnostic Church, and resigned from membership as a Freemason in 1895 to become a Roman Catholic. His expose of the Gnostic Church and the Freemasons written thereafter...entitled 'Lucifer Unmasked'...is a very revealing, 'inside look' at the core of both organizations. Additional, accurate information about the history of the Gnostic Church and the Gnostic Catholic Church can be found here:
http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/history_egc.htm
Http://www.oto-usa.org/egc.html
Hari OM!
Doc
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quote:
Phillip: There are three primary nervous systems:
1. Intellectual - Cerebrospinal Nervous System - Brain - Throne of The Father (+)
2. Emotional - Grand Sympathetic Nervous System - Heart - Throne of the Son (Heart) (-)
3. Motor-instinctive-sexual - Vagus or Parasympathetic - Sex - Throne of the Holy Spirit (=)
Every chakra has its relationship with all three. Each chakra does have a specific relation to a gland or organ, however. This is detailed in Fundamental Notions of Endocrinology and Criminology by Samael Aun Weor.
Hey, Phillip, I will definitely check out Samael Aun Weor's Book, once I find a free online source, or may purchase. I appreciate you listing the information. And you're right, I'm looking for body correlation to specific organ, gland, whatever.
Thanks again:
[:)]
VIL
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quote:
The Gnostic Catholic Church, however, was founded in 1907 by Jean Bricaud, Gerard Encausse, and Louis-Sophrone Fugairon...all of whom were members of the Gnostic Church of France, founded in 1890 by Jules Doinel. Doinel abdicated his position as Patriarch of the Gnostic Church, and resigned from membership as a Freemason in 1895 to become a Roman Catholic. His expose of the Gnostic Church and the Freemasons written thereafter...entitled 'Lucifer Unmasked'...is a very revealing, 'inside look' at the core of both organizations. Additional, accurate information about the history of the Gnostic Church and the Gnostic Catholic Church can be found here:
http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/history_egc.htm
Http://www.oto-usa.org/egc.html
Hari OM!
Doc
Actually that is not the Gnostic Catholic Church I am referring to. The one I am referring to is found in the superior worlds.
If you want to visit, then learn how to travel in the astral body. A good mantra to achieve this is FARAON. This is an Egyptian mantra. While going to bed, practice meditation as you fall asleep, chanting this mantra mentally. Chant this thousands of times if necessary, like this: FAAAAAAAA RAAAAAAAA OOOOONNNNNNN. This mantra will help you to leave your body after it falls asleep.
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
"Actually that is not the Gnostic Catholic Church I am referring to. The one I am referring to is found in the superior worlds."
Well now...that certainly provides a convenient apologetic defense, doesn't it? [|)] But not very easily accessible for a practical method of spiritual self-cultivation, is it? [:p] [:D]
Hari OM!
Doc
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
"Actually that is not the Gnostic Catholic Church I am referring to. The one I am referring to is found in the superior worlds."
Well now...that certainly provides a convenient apologetic defense, doesn't it? [|)] But not very easily accessible for a practical method of spiritual self-cultivation, is it? [:p] [:D]
Hari OM!
Doc
I recommend that you don't be so pessimistic and locked within your current ideas about what is possible. It is, indeed, very easily accessible for a practical method of spiritual self-cultivation, if you know the KEYS and the CIPHERS that unlock the mysteries. There are many mantras, postures, and other keys to help the aspirant consciously travel in the astral body. I know this from my own experience but that means nothing unless you know it. If you want to know what I am talking about then you can take up the effort and experience it for yourself. This is a wonderful thing, to experience for one's self. If you don't want to do that, then that is what is convenient for you: to continue believing whatever you want to believe and labeling what you reject with figurative nomenclature describing horse excrement.
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Philip:
I get the picture, Bubba! [:)] You hold the "Keys and Ciphers that unlock the mysteries" which would enable us all to ascend into the 'Superior Worlds' and 'Celestial Realms, right? [:D] Even someone like me, who apparently has no previous experience with "mantras, postures, and other keys" to spiritual self-cultivation and illumination, right? [:p] Very cool! [8D]
Philip, please know that I truly believe ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE....especially through the Loving Grace and Will of God....yet some things remain highly improbable nonetheless! [;)]
Hari OM!
Doc
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Doc,
on the bright side, there are probably 2,000,000,000 (2 billion) people in the world who think they know what you don't, and that you would do well to be initiated into what they know. If there were only 1, some counterargument would seem necessary. Paradoxically, the 1,999,999,999 others seem to render a counter-argument quite unnecessary, don't you think? [:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
Philip:
I get the picture, Bubba! [:)] You hold the "Keys and Ciphers that unlock the mysteries" which would enable us all to ascend into the 'Superior Worlds' and 'Celestial Realms, right? [:D] Even someone like me, who apparently has no previous experience with "mantras, postures, and other keys" to spiritual self-cultivation and illumination, right? [:p] Very cool! [8D]
Philip, please know that I truly believe ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE....especially through the Loving Grace and Will of God....yet some things remain highly improbable nonetheless! [;)]
Hari OM!
Doc
I disagree. I don't think you get the picture.[:(][:(][:(]
No, I don't hold the keys because they neither belong to me, nor any other individual.[:D][:D][:D]
Being universal, they belong to the very fabric of the universe.[8D][8D][8D]
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Doc,
on the bright side, there are probably 2,000,000,000 (2 billion) people in the world who think they know what you don't, and that you would do well to be initiated into what they know. If there were only 1, some counterargument would seem necessary. Paradoxically, the 1,999,999,999 others seem to render a counter-argument quite unnecessary, don't you think? [:)]
David:
Good point! Totally agreed. Thanks for the reminder. [:D]
Hari OM!
Doc
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"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us." Mark 9: 38-40
Myriads of wisdom to ponder:
[8)]
VIL
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip
I disagree. I don't think you get the picture.[:(][:(][:(]
No, I don't hold the keys because they neither belong to me, nor any other individual.[:D][:D][:D]
Being universal, they belong to the very fabric of the universe.[8D][8D][8D]
OK, Philip. You're right. I don't get the Magical Mystery Tour Channel here in Texas. But they're fixin' to add it to our Cable Package perty soon. [;)]
Meanwhile, Bubba, I hope you don't mind if I add you to my daily Prayer List. [:D]
Hari OM!
Doc
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip
If you want to visit, then learn how to travel in the astral body. A good mantra to achieve this is FARAON. This is an Egyptian mantra. While going to bed, practice meditation as you fall asleep, chanting this mantra mentally. Chant this thousands of times if necessary, like this: FAAAAAAAA RAAAAAAAA OOOOONNNNNNN. This mantra will help you to leave your body after it falls asleep.
Hi again Phillip,
Do you have more information about astral travel? Did Samuel Aun Weor write any books on the subject? How about causal travel?
What I thought so far is that we need reasonably well developed chakras in order to be able to use the lighter bodies associated with those chakras. Is that wrong? Can anybody learn to astral travel just through one mantra meditation?
Thanks.
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Hi Philip,
Thanks for all the really interesting posts.
quote:
Actually that is not the Gnostic Catholic Church I am referring to. The one I am referring to is found in the superior worlds.
If you want to visit, then learn how to travel in the astral body. A good mantra to achieve this is FARAON. This is an Egyptian mantra. While going to bed, practice meditation as you fall asleep, chanting this mantra mentally. Chant this thousands of times if necessary, like this: FAAAAAAAA RAAAAAAAA OOOOONNNNNNN. This mantra will help you to leave your body after it falls asleep.
I visited a church in the astral realm once. It was unbelievable[:)][8D]. Inside the church were angels singing. They were singing glory to the Divine. I was speachless. I certainly didn't ask them anything, the very idea would have seemed crazy. I mean, they were divine beings of light praising God. The idea of tapping one of them on the shoulder and saying "excuse me, I was just wondering about the human nervous system...?" or something, just wouldn't have seemed appropriate. Do you think I just turned up at a moment when they were busy, and if I had hung around I could have had a chat?
These angels were pretty high (spiritually), and large (physically). Afterwards, all I could think for a while was "Glory, Glory, Glory, Glory unto the highest" and those words from the bible started to make some sense.
Christi
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Chiron, I mentioned to you before that you have a very special name astrologically speaking:-)
Let me elucidate on the principle of Secrets of a Silver Trader and Astrological Bracelets:
...... I was reminded in trying to create a new webstyle to make my life a bit easier managing all the pages, that astrology is both a LITERAL astronomical thing, as well as a language, a symbolic language. There is no other way to logically grasp anything about the sky/ our purpose on the Earth, other than using a precise symbolic language. It is only the language of the planets and stars which symbolizes the connection between Heaven and Earth itself.
This in astrology as it is practised in the Netherlands I have both a problem as well as a solution.
Dutch astrologers these days are very fond of using
*the Black Sun
*the Black Moon
*the Black Hole
transcribing these into the Black Cat, the Dark Sun, and the Sad Couple without children.
This interpretation from astronomical data is the true dark interpretation, it is an interpretation on a level where God is not a known, nor apparently even trusted in.
I dont practice Dutch astrology so much although I have been initiated in it. I dont practice the German Cosmobiology school (midpoints) neither although I have been initiated in that as well (in the UK) . It was Dane Rudhyar who brought some true Light into all of this dark matter.
In Rudhyar's transpersonal astrology,
the Black Sun equate the progressed Lunation Cycle.
the Black Moon equates no longer the sad widow or widower (Piscean Age talk that is, where suffering accompanied the path), but it equates the t ime in life when Pluto and Saturn make an aspect to one another. This is an aspect of CHOICE. Ebertin, from the German school has interpreted this aspect both ways: as the ultimate place of Hell on Earth, as well as the ultimate Enlightenment. It is quite easy to use the principles for the Enlightenment Series here: it is just about taking utter responsibility for one's own life. At whatever age on is in life. Even at a very young age this can happen, we're talking about adopted kids here.
Thus the combination of Pluto/Saturn is the only combination which gets the dark out of the Black Moon symbolism, and turns it into some light and hope for deserted children everywhere.
The Black Hole, the ultimate one, is where matter turns unto antimatter. It is the astronomer's way of saying that there is an end to existence, that ultimately the world itself will implode back in into itself.
Hm, maybe, but that was also Piscean Age thinking.
In Stellar Astrology, the Black Hole equates with the Galactic Center of the entire Milky Way. The Milky Way is the INNER state of ecstacy. The problem is, this is a tight rope we're walking here between enlightenment and sanity, between insanity and sanity.
The Light way is the way of the Heart. And of Truth, and of TRULY believing in that which you do.
Thus, ultimately, I propose to use the following demoninations in astrology:
1) the astrology without heart, and without belief inGod:
by all means, be obsessed with The Black Sun, the Black Moon and the Black Hole.
2) the astrology with heart, and with a belief in God, they use
the perigeum and apogeum points of the Moon, together with the Lunar Nodes rather than "the Black Moon".
for the hell of the utter and final loneliness of the process of dying, they do not use the Black Sun, for with a belief in God, they use something else instead: Pluto and Saturn in combination meaning taking UTTER responsibility for ONESELF, they equal the dark ages of the past indeed, which need to turn to light.
3) For the desperation of dying, they use the pointer of the Galactic Center: the Center of the entire Milky Way (currently at 26+ Sagittarius just like Pluto itself). They can only do that if there is a belief in God.
Thus the use of "the Black Moon" is okay, but it is like a pining widow at a grave, or a black spidersweb, for God is nowhere in sight.
SPIRITUAL ASTROLOGY therefor simply obsessively so REFUSES to use the Black Moon in astrology.
Instead, it uses some wisdom from India: wearing an ASTROLOGICAL BRACELET. In ISAR some have said, with regard to the ISAR ethics code, that no astrologer should advise clients to buy all kinds of expensive gemstones as a protection for dark ages within.
Members of Self Realization Fellowships sell and buy these astrological bracelets, but they don't even know it is astrological. They just believe wholesale (which is the way of Spirit anyway).
I am fortunate enough to be in the possession of one of these Astrological Bracelets. They are made of PURE Gold, Copper and Silver. They are only astrological bracelets, of the relevance of this is seen in its true light. They are only protection of some astrology is used here.
Gold is the Sun, and it is not the Dark Sun.... it's about changes in seasons, about the Progressed Lunation Cycle.
Silver is the Moon, and it is not the Dark Moon ... it's not about slavery any more, from the female to the male.
Copper, can be found on Cyprus. But you just have to know where to look to find it.
It needs to understand the true existence of Chiron as a comet.
Than we're talking books in the Enlightenment Series. Secrets of Wilder? Secrets of Business Principles? Secrets of a Silver Trader? This latter title only LOOKS to the uninitiated in the principle of Chiron to be the ultimate dark of matter. Well, the difference is only this, does one truly believe a God exists or what? Therein lies the difference.
The COPPER of the astrological bracelet, is a combination of Cheiron as an astrological principle, and a true gnostic one person church that in fact, I did visit once. I am offering all of this information because I have come to understand meantime, that it is groupformation we need, we need to find out who our friends are, for the true key only lies in the hands of many, not within a single person. And again (and again and again:-)) therein lies the true genius of Yogani of creating what he did.
This is going to sound like a book of revelations if I continue with this.. but I dont know what I am revealing to myself unless I talk and get all this wonderful feedback from you...:-))
My head is clear in the English language currently. It is entirely in the dark in the Dutch language. I think I will probably jump back into one of the forums tonight, for some more relvelations from you and others to keep me still sane (my number 1 priority by the way).
Ciao!
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Dzjee Philip, thanks for the mantra!
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quote:
Originally posted by Chiron
quote:
Originally posted by Philip
If you want to visit, then learn how to travel in the astral body. A good mantra to achieve this is FARAON. This is an Egyptian mantra. While going to bed, practice meditation as you fall asleep, chanting this mantra mentally. Chant this thousands of times if necessary, like this: FAAAAAAAA RAAAAAAAA OOOOONNNNNNN. This mantra will help you to leave your body after it falls asleep.
Hi again Phillip,
Do you have more information about astral travel? Did Samuel Aun Weor write any books on the subject? How about causal travel?
Yes he wrote many times on the subject. There is a book called Dream Yoga which is a compilation of chapters from different books which you can buy here: http://www.gnosticstore.org/servlet/Detail?no=26
An audio book presentation of the book can be found here: http://www.gnosticradio.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=16&Itemid=28 (You can also find this audio book on iTunes, if you have that, then click here: http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=211066002)
Additionally, there is a course on dream yoga here: http://www.gnosticteachings.org/courses/dream-yoga/
Dream Yoga is the term used by the Tibetans. You can probably find books coming from a directly Tibetan perspective if you search of "Dream Yoga" on Amazon.com, however I can't vouch for any specific one.
We all leave our bodies at night when we sleep, but we do so unconsciously. While there in limbo we project our unconsciousness onto the screen of life and "dream." Realize that this same unconscious activity occurs all the time, day and night. We do it actively through daydreaming, but it is always occurring. Using the methods of self awareness, or self observation, we can bring the activity of the unconsciousness into our consciousness. Once you stop dreaming on a level of the subconsciousness, you awaken that level. Likewise, there many degrees of awakening, related with the number 7.
If you stop "dreaming" during your vigilant hours, then by a natural consequence the process of dreams stops also at night. Then one is naturally awakened in the internal worlds. However this happens very slowly, in degrees, like how a tree transforms from a seed into a gigantic oak.
quote:
What I thought so far is that we need reasonably well developed chakras in order to be able to use the lighter bodies associated with those chakras. Is that wrong? Can anybody learn to astral travel just through one mantra meditation?
What you are stating is generally correct, when the chakras are fully opened then you possess many siddhis such as departing from the physical body. Yet there are many methods that will help in specifically this objective of astral projection. There are people who perform this mantra (FARAON) once and they have an experience. There are others that must work diligently for days, weeks, months, or years.
quote:
Our disciples must acquire the power of traveling with the Astral Body. This power is acquired by daily vocalizing for an hour the sacred mantra EGIPTO. The vowel “E” (sounded eh) makes the thyroid gland vibrate and grants unto the person the power of the occult ear. The “G” (as in good) awakens the chakra of the liver, and when this chakra has reached it complete development, the person can enter and depart from the physical body whenever it is wished. The “I” (sounded eee as in tree), when combined with the letter “P” develops unto the person clairvoyance and the power to leave in the Astral Body through the window of Brahma, which is the pineal gland. The letter “T” beats upon the vowel “O,” which is intimately related with the chakra of the heart. Thus, the human being can acquire the power in order to detach from this plexus and depart in the Astral Body.
The correct pronunciation of the mantra EGIPTO is as follows:
Eeeeeeeeeeeeggggggggiiiiiiiiipppptoooooooooo
Those who have not attained the capacity of departing in the Astral Body with other clues do not have that power. Then they must acquire this power firstly by vocalizing for one hour daily the mantra EGIPTO. This mantra completely develops the chakras related with the projection of the Astral Body. This is how the disciple acquires the power of astral projection. The disciple could then enter and leave the physical body at will.
The Egyptian mantra that is utilized in order to depart in the Astral Body is the following: FARAON. This mantra is vocalized in those instances of transition between vigil and dream, having the mind placed on the pyramids of Egypt.
The correct pronunciation of the mantra FARAON is as follows:
Faaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaoooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnn
This mantra is used in order to depart in the Astral Body, and as we have already stated, it is pronounced during the state of transition between vigil and dream and with the mind concentrated on the pyramids of the Egypt. Nonetheless, the disciples that do not have the power of departing with the Astral Body must firstly acquire it by vocalizing daily for one hour, as we have already mentioned, the mantra EGIPTO. - The Initiatic Path in the Arcana of Tarot and Kabbalah by Samael Aun Weor
Traveling in the Causal Body requires that one is awakened in the causal world. Before we can be awakened there we must awaken in the mental world. Before we can awaken there we must be awakened in the astral world. Before we can be awakened there, we must be awakened in the physical world. Not physically awake, but psychologically awake.
Therefore: Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, and thou shalt be satisfied with bread.
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Great post, Phillip. Another fount of wisdom:
[:)]
VIL
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Greetings Everyone!
"Our intense need to understand will always be a powerful stumbling block to our attempts to reach God in simple love, and must always be overcome. For if you do not overcome this need to understand, it will undermine your quest. It will replace the darkness which you have pierced to reach God, with clear images of something which, however good, however beautiful, however Godlike, is not God. So, therefore, never give up your resolve, but beat away at this cloud of unknowing between you and God with that sharp dart of longing love. And so I urge you, go after experience rather than knowledge. On account of pride, knowledge may often deceive you, but this gentle, loving affection will not deceive you. Knowledge tends to breed conceit, but love builds. Knowledge is full of labor, but love, full of rest."
From 'The Cloud of Unknowing'
Hari OM!
Doc
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I really needed that, Doc. Good advice, like when Jim And His Karma said to just "relax".
Thanks again, to both of you:
[:)]
VIL
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Namaste VIL:
Glad you liked it. [:)]
The Real Strength and Greatest Power of True Knowledge (Gnosis) and Sacred Wisdom (Hagia Sophia) is most often found in profound simplicity. Less can actually be More! [:0]
Thus, Quality of Knowledge, rather than Quantity of Knowledge, is the Master Key. As such, Illuminated Union with God through Spiritual Self-Cultivation always ciphers through an equation of subraction not addition! [;)]
Hari OM!
Doc
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Hi Doc,
quote:
"Our intense need to understand will always be a powerful stumbling block to our attempts to reach God in simple love, and must always be overcome. For if you do not overcome this need to understand, it will undermine your quest. It will replace the darkness which you have pierced to reach God, with clear images of something which, however good, however beautiful, however Godlike, is not God. So, therefore, never give up your resolve, but beat away at this cloud of unknowing between you and God with that sharp dart of longing love. And so I urge you, go after experience rather than knowledge. On account of pride, knowledge may often deceive you, but this gentle, loving affection will not deceive you. Knowledge tends to breed conceit, but love builds. Knowledge is full of labor, but love, full of rest."
From 'The Cloud of Unknowing'
I agree, it is great to be reminded that experience is what really counts in the spiritual process, and that love is the most important thing. This is what all the greatest Gnostics have taught, especially Jesus of Nazareth. Many great Christians have taught this too, which helps us to see that there really is very little difference between the Gnostic teachings and the orthodox Christian teachings. We really need to strive to understand each other and rise beyond sectarian divisions here. It doesn't serve any of us, and, as Yogani said, can drive people away.
Personally I find it difficult to hold an intelligent conversation about something as deep as esoteric spirital practice, if you keep shouting "heritic" from the side-lines, every time someone's practices do not fall in line with your particular brand of Orthodox Christianity or Advaita Yogic views. There are many of us on this path, and we draw from many traditions. We cannot really judge another path until we have walked it.
Don't forget:
Tollerance[:)]
Love[8D]
"Judge not lest others should judge you" (anonymous Gnostic[;)])
Christi
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quote:
Christi: there really is very little difference between the Gnostic teachings and the orthodox Christian teachings. We really need to strive to understand each other and rise beyond sectarian divisions here. It doesn't serve any of us, and, as Yogani said, can drive people away.
It's funny that you should mention that, Christi, because we all have preconceived notions, biases, et al, and I remember having a conversation with my sister concerning Wicca, since she's really interested in this. And so she was questioning me, as to what I felt about it and I explained that I didn't have any interest in that. LOL. [I know better: [;)]].
So, I was doing my regular research of various spiritual topics the other day and it just so happens that I stumbled on an amazing article from a woman that was really into witchcraft, magic, etc. Normally, I'd roll my eyes, but I decided to remove my blinders and really look from her perspective and see what she said about the topic I was researching. In all honesty, I was amazed at her depth of knowledge and understanding of spirituality. She gave me new perspective on subject matter that I really never considered, but was EXACTLY what I needed. Again, I was truly shocked at her wisdom and breadth of knowledge.
Anyway, It's amazing that we all create our comfort levels, put God in a box, and how often He'll let you know that he can't be contained, is unknowable, and will remain as so.
It's all about sincerity of purpose and spirituality has nothing to do with dogma. So much understanding is bipased, because we all think that one path is maybe a little greater than another. Or that maybe we have just a little more understanding than this person or that one. It was a beautiful lesson of humility. And the more I learn. The more I think I know. The less I really do.
When we realize this it brings us closer to each other. To me, that's true Oneness. To feel connected with people, to get rid of judgements and opinions.
Anyway, great post, Christi:
VIL
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi:
"I agree, it is great to be reminded that experience is what really counts in the spiritual process, and that love is the most important thing. Many great Christians have taught this too, which helps us to see that there really is very little difference between the Gnostic teachings and the orthodox Christian teachings. We cannot really judge another path until we have walked it."
'The Cloud of Unknowing' IS an example of Christian Mystical Writings, so its teachings obviously stem from the perspective of a Christian Spiritual Path and Practice. [;)]
Although your undoubtedly good intentions, Christi, and your attempted diplomacy, are both appreciated and admired, your opinion that "there is really very little difference between the Gnostic Teachings and the Orthodox Christian Teachings" is absolutely not true. While there may be some minor points of philosophical and theological agreement between the two, they remain quite different on the whole. This is particularly so in regards to what Christians view as the most fundamental theological issues...such as the Nature of God and the Trinity, the Divine Nature of Christ, the Reality of the Resurrection, and other crucial issues which define Christianity at its very core, and without a correct understanding of which....there can be no Christianity.
It is for this reason that I subject myself to your esteemed disapproval in order to confront those who 1) are not Christians, as this is generally understood to mean by the overwhelming majority of those who do profess to be Christians; and 2) insist nonetheless to proclaim their minority views and opinions as the most accurate and valid interpretations of Christianity. I would feel remiss not to address these issues.
Additionally, it is very interesting to be told that "we cannot really judge another path until we have walked it", yet this is exactly what I encounter ALL THE TIME! I am regularly told that alternate teachings on Christianity, from a wide variety of non-Christian 'authorities', should be accepted as the true explanation of Christianity and the person of Jesus, even though these so-called 'authorities' DO NOT follow a Christian Spiritual Path. They strive only to explain Jesus and His Teachings according to the alternate perspective of their own Spiritual Paths.
As an Ordained Clergyman, with extensive formal religious education required to serve as such, I feel very well suited to represent a Traditional Christian perspective on these issues. I have chosen do so for the sake of clarity, as few of those posting on this thread appear to have a solid Christian religious education, or a factual knowledge of Christian Church History. For the sake of fairness and equanimity, is it so unacceptable that even one lone voice should arise to speak authoritatively on behalf of mainstream Christianity?
Doc
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Whereas I am neutral on the subject matter, I have to say great job on that last post, Doc. You stated your case very well, without trying to cut anyone else down to size.
So the sage is firm but not cutting,
Pointed but not piercing,
Straight but not rigid,
Bright but not blinding.
To govern men in accord with nature
It is best to be restrained;
Restraint makes agreement easy to attain,
And easy agreement builds harmonious relationships;
With sufficient harmony no resistance will arise;
When no resistance arises, then you possess the heart of the nation,
And when you possess the nation's heart, your influence will long endure:
Deeply rooted and firmly established.
This is the method of far sight and long life.
"Tao De Ching -- Lao Tzu " via Peter A. Merel
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Hi Doc:
quote:
'The Cloud of Unknowing' IS an example of Christian Mystical Writings, so its teachings obviously stem from the perspective of a Christian Spiritual Path and Practice.
I was aware that the Cloud of unknowing is a Christian writing. I was trying to point out that the quote you used would be equally applicable to both Gnostic Christianity and Orthodox Christianity. In fact it could easily have been written by a Gnostic Christian.
quote:
Although your undoubtedly good intentions, Christi, and your attempted diplomacy, are both appreciated and admired, your opinion that "there is really very little difference between the Gnostic Teachings and the Orthodox Christian Teachings" is absolutely not true. While there may be some minor points of philosophical and theological agreement between the two, they remain quite different on the whole. This is particularly so in regards to what Christians view as the most fundamental theological issues...such as the Nature of God and the Trinity, the Divine Nature of Christ, the Reality of the Resurrection, and other crucial issues which define Christianity at its very core, and without a correct understanding of which....there can be no Christianity.
Well... if you are right here, then I would be simply astonished. [:0]
Gnostic Christians believe in the Divine nature of Christ, as do Orthodox Christians. Gnostics believe in the reality of the Resurrection, as do Orthodox Christians. In fact much of what Philip has quoted from above is based on teachings given by Jesus Christ to his disiples, after the resurection and is a Gnostic text.
Gnostic Christians and Orthodox Christians also both believe in the divine nature of God (the Logos) and in the Trinity. This is a quote from a Gnostic Christian website:
quote:
The Logos has three aspects, known universally as the Trinity or Trimurti. The First Logos is the Father, Brahma. The Second Logos is the Son, Vishnu. The Third Logos is the Holy Spirit, Shiva. One who incarnates the Logos becomes a Logos.
So in terms of central Tennets of faith (if that is what you call them) i really do not see any real difference between Orthodox Christianity and Gnostic Christianity. I also do not see any essential differences in terms of praxis in either tradition.
Perhaps the confusion here is that you are reffering to a different school of Gnostic teachings than Philip is reffering to, as Philip pointed out above.
quote:
Additionally, it is very interesting to be told that "we cannot really judge another path until we have walked it", yet this is exactly what I encounter ALL THE TIME! I am regularly told that alternate teachings on Christianity, from a wide variety of non-Christian 'authorities', should be accepted as the true explanation of Christianity and the person of Jesus, even though these so-called 'authorities' DO NOT follow a Christian Spiritual Path. They strive only to explain Jesus and His Teachings according to the alternate perspective of their own Spiritual Paths.
Just because other people do it to you, doesn't justify returning the insult. Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek"? (JC)
quote:
As an Ordained Clergyman, with extensive formal religious education required to serve as such, I feel very well suited to represent a Traditional Christian perspective on these issues. I have chosen do so for the sake of clarity, as few of those posting on this thread appear to have a solid Christian religious education, or a factual knowledge of Christian Church History. For the sake of fairness and equanimity, is it so unacceptable that even one lone voice should arise to speak authoritatively on behalf of mainstream Christianity?
Pointing something out for the sake of clarity is one thing, and personally I welcome it, as long as it is done in an appropriate manner. Continually bashing someone over the head with a bible is another thing, and is (in my opinion) a form of unnecessary violence.
Christi
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There is multitude of different traditions that use the word "Gnostic," both historically and today. The differences between these groups varies significantly. It would, therefore, be incorrect to assume exactly what I understand to be the gnosis of something if I have not yet expressed it specifically. I have already clearly stated that many of things I am speaking of here opposes the view expressed by many (most) religions. If someone wants to further that point it is not of my concern, except to clarify any misconceptions as to what exactly I am stating. [:)]
What I understand 'gnosis' to be is that universal root wisdom upon which all forms of religion have their basis. [:D]
If all religions are pearls strung on the golden thread of divinity, then gnosis is the same golden thread. [:D]
I understand Gnostic Christianity as taught by "Jesus" is the most potent and synthesized form of religion that has be expressed on Earth. Nevertheless, the physical presence of such a sect has always been hidden, yet, partially diluted, divulged and mutilated by the good intentions of men. [:(]
I understand that the same principles exist in all religions, namely the Christ principle. [8D]
I understand the Christ principle to be the Ray of Light that emanates from the Absolute Abstract Space through supreme and absolute sacrifice, for love of the world.
quote:
The teachings of the Zend Avesta are in accordance with the doctrinal principles contained in the Egyptian book of the dead, and contain the Christ-principle. The Illiad of Homer, the Hebrew Bible, the Germanic Edda and the Sibylline Books of the Romans contain the same Christ-principle. All these are sufficient in order to demonstrate that Christ is anterior to Jesus of Nazareth. Christ is not one individual alone. Christ is a cosmic principle that we must assimilate within our own physical, psychic, somatic and spiritual nature…
Among the Persians, Christ is Ormuz, Ahura Mazda, terrible enemy of Ahriman (Satan), which we carry within us. Amongst the Hindus, Krishna is Christ; thus, the gospel of Krishna is very similar to that of Jesus of Nazareth. Among the Egyptians, Christ is Osiris and whosoever incarnated him was in fact an Osirified One. Amongst the Chinese, the Cosmic Christ is Fu Hi, who composed the I-Ching (The Book of Laws) and who nominated Dragon Ministers. Among the Greeks, Christ is called Zeus, Jupiter, the Father of the Gods. Among the Aztecs, Christ is Quetzalcoatl, the Mexican Christ. In the Germanic Edda, Baldur is the Christ who was assassinated by Hodur, God of War, with an arrow made from a twig of mistletoe, etc. In like manner, we can cite the Cosmic Christ within thousands of ancient texts and old traditions which hail from millions of years before Jesus. The whole of this invites us to embrace that Christ is a cosmic principle contained within the essential principles of all religions.
– Samael Aun Weor, The Perfect Matrimony
I understand that Jesus purposefully played out the Christic Drama, giving a public teaching through his very life.
I understand that not only did Jesus die and resurrect, but many have done so, and indeed is a matter of necessity in order to become a real "Christian," for only when one dies absolutely does Christ absolutely manifest within.
If Christ were electricity, then the many who have incarnated Him would be the many different types of bulbs that exist: some are low wattage, some are high wattage, some produce a muffled light, some produce a very clear light. Additionally, different bulbs are needed for the requirements of the development of different parts of humanity.
As I stated before, John inwardly represents the interior Master, the Atman, the Innermost, Chesed. He was the prophet Elijah, which is pronounced like EL-IAO in Hebrew. So, the interior John is the messenger to the interior IAO, the interior Christ.
John is I.E.O.U.A.N., or better said: IEOUAMS (Seven Letters, related with the Seven Churches or Chakras), representing the "seven-fold" spirit of man in Revelation. This is the complete man.
quote:
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all men (a real IEOUAMS) through him (Christ) might believe.
8He (John, IEOUAMS) was not that Light (Christ), but was sent to bear witness of that Light (through the incarnation of Christ).
9That was the true Light (Christ), which lighteth every man (IEOUAMS) that cometh into the world.
10He was in the world (of our subconscious), and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not (because the darkness, our sub/un/infraconsciousness does not understand the light, Christ).
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received (incarnated) him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
-John 1
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his Seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. - John 3:9
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. - Galatians 3:16
I understand that Jesus was not the only Son of God. There are many Sons of God, because they are one with the One Son of God which is Christ. The Sons of God are those that have incarnated the Cosmic Christ: those that have been born again, born of God, through the science of alchemy, changing water (sexual energy) into wine (that which gives god-intoxication: rapture, satori, samadhi, etc.), which is sexual transmutation.
quote:
"Much has been stated about the Hierophant Jesus, however, the fact is that nobody knows his personal biography. The tendency to castrate the Hierophant Jesus exists. The Christian sects depict an infrasexual Jesus, effeminate, weak; yet at times angry, like a whimsical woman. Naturally, all of this is absurd. The fact is that nobody knows the personal life of Jesus, because we do not have his biography. Only with the faculties of objective clairvoyance can we study the life of Jesus in the Akasic Records of Nature...
We know the life of the Great Master and we know that Jesus was really a complete man in the fullest sense of the word. Jesus had a priestess wife, because he was not an infrasexual. The wife of Jesus was evidently a complete Lady Adept, endowed with great secret powers. Jesus traveled through Europe and was a member of a Mediterranean Mystery School. Jesus studied in Egypt and practiced Sexual Magic with his priestess inside one of the pyramids. That is how he recapitulated the initiations and later achieved the Venustic Initiation. Jesus traveled through Persia, India, etc. Thus, the Great Master was a Master in the most complete sense of the word. Jesus lived the drama of the Passion; nonetheless, he was not the only one who has lived it. Prior to him, some Initiates like Hermes, Quetzalcoatl, Krishna, Orpheus, Buddha etc., lived it. After Him, a few others have lived it. The drama of the Passion is cosmic...
Jesus was a complete man. Jesus was not the castrated one who many religions depicted. Jesus followed the Path of the Perfect Matrimony. Jesus formed the Christ within himself by practicing Sexual Magic with his wife. What we are stating will shock fanatics... - The Perfect Matrimony
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Samael Aun Weor said:
Jesus studied in Egypt and practiced Sexual Magic with his priestess inside one of the pyramids.
Philip, how does Samael Aun Weor purport to know this?
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Samael Aun Weor said:
Jesus studied in Egypt and practiced Sexual Magic with his priestess inside one of the pyramids.
Philip, how does Samael Aun Weor purport to know this?
Only with the faculties of objective clairvoyance can we study the life of Jesus in the Akasic Records of Nature... -Samael Aun Weor
Objective clairvoyance is a vipassana of the highest order.
quote:
Insight. Vi comes from viesa which means “special” or “superior.” Ashana means “to perceive.” So Vipassana means “to perceive the superior.” Related to the Tibetan hlagtong: “To see the special.” Vipassana is the discrimination of phenomena. True Vipassana is achieved through the conscious use of the imagination, often called "clairvoyance."
http://www.gnosticteachings.org/the-teachings-of-gnosis/the-gnostic-jesus/
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I see. Uh-huh. We have to have special powers like Samael Aun Weor, and only then will we see what Samael Aun Weor sees:
Saith Samael Aun Weor:
"Many people believe that Samael is just a pseudonym. No! Indeed, I am Samael! By yourselves, you have read that in Kabbalah that Samael is classified as the angel regent of Mars. In the Bible, Samael is classified as a demon. It does not matter! The fact is that I am Samael! ......"
".... Samael Aun Weor is my true name as a Boddhisattwa. Samael is the name of my Monad! I am perfectly cognizant of the dawn of life in this Solar System! I saw the dawning of Creation! I am here with this humanity, from the very first moment, since the heart of this solar system started to palpitate after the long Cosmic Night. I came here (to this planet) because my Internal God, my Father who is within me, sent me! My only purpose is to serve and help this humanity! This is why I am serving my fellowmen. This is why I am working for the sake of this humanity! ..."
So let me see: God sent Samael, and gave him great powers to see things that the rest of can't (like Jesus having sex with his gal in the pyramid). Sounds fine and dandy so far -- but I'm just scratching my head here wondering why God didn't give the One he Sent the ability to prove to the world that he can accurately see stuff that we can't?
Can you cast any light on that Philip?
-
quote:
Can you cast any light on that Philip?
Well, the facts are, he did have the ability to prove to the word that he can accurately see stuff that we can't, and so do and did many, many, many of other people. C. W. Leadbeater (a purported "pedophile" by his enemies), actually did just this when he discovered isotopes years before official science using his clairvoyance. Concerning Samael Aun Weor, he proved himself endlessly to those around him, and even was incarcerated by Roman Catholic Church for "healing the sick without permission." He was so hated by the people around him that he had to flee into the jungles in order to avoid being killed by mobs of enemies because suddenly his "proof" was witchcraft, sorcery. Don't you get it? Do you comprehend the nature of this world?
Regardless, it was not his concern to go off showing people "powers," for the same reason all the arhats, yogis, saints, etc., who also have these powers did not. They are acts of God not to be toyed around with, but when they were needed, they were used. Otherwise, for what? To get more believers? God has no interest in believers. He could of had all the believers in the world, but that doesn't make someone happy, that does not remove one's suffering.
Love your enemies with all your heart and with all of your soul. Kiss the whip of your executioner, bless those who damn and persecute you; return good for evil.
Beloved brethren, I have the high honor of inviting you to a constant epistolary interchange, but please I beg you, I beseech you, do not send me any type of praise, adulations or cheers.
It is urgent, it is indispensable, for you to comprehend that I, as a person, am insignificant; I am worth a little bit less than the ashes of a cigarette. Thus, I am somebody who indeed does not have the least bit of importance.
Therefore, with much sincerity I tell you that any letter containing praise, adulation and cheers with be rejected.
Treat me heart to heart, from good to good, from love to love. Remember that Hermetic maxim that states: I give thee love within which the whole sumum of wisdom is contained.
To my worst enemies, those who hate me, damn and persecute me too much, those who criticize my books, I send them through this Christmas Message a fraternal hug filled with true love.
I adore my enemies; I adore my critics and wish for all of them, as is natural, a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. - Samael Aun Weor
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quote:
david_obsidian: So let me see: God sent Samael, and gave him great powers to see things that the rest of can't (like Jesus having sex with his gal in the pyramid). Sounds fine and dandy so far -- but I'm just scratching my head here wondering why God didn't give the One he Sent the ability to prove to the world that he can accurately see stuff that we can't?
Can you cast any light on that Philip?
I'm not a proponent for or against Samael Aun Weor, but it stands to reason that these same questions surely caused a lot of head scratching from the hypocrites of Christ's time, too; but never allayed their satiation of knowing Christ's true station by way of taunting or proof.
VIL
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VIL,
I must call foul for insinuating that I am a hypocrite, or associating me with them. If you want to associate anyone with hypocrites, please do it to yourself and leave me alone. There isn't a whit of hypocricy in any of this. That's just a red-herring insult.
I don't think Christ's time is relevant. Anyone who presents himself as some sort of Messiah in the 20th century needs to answer some 20th-century questions. The biggest and most obvious one is 'why should we believe you, and not the 100,000 or so other claimants to messiah status'.
So yes, one asks for proof. One is a fool not to. Particularly since these 100,000 Messiah's are contradictory in their teachings. Because when you add up what all the self-proclaimed messiahs say, you can believe anything. Anything.
Any real 20th or 21st-century messiah (if such a thing exists) will come with his/her ability to prove. He/she will convince intelligence. Because when it comes down to it, anything that can convince gullibility but not intelligence is not a messiah.
100,000 showing up and saying, "I'm the ONE; God sent me, but forgot to sign my ID card to prove it, sorry", just doesn't cut it. Not in the Age of Reason.
Samael Aun Weor: It is urgent, it is indispensable, for you to comprehend that I, as a person, am insignificant; I am worth a little bit less than the ashes of a cigarette. Thus, I am somebody who indeed does not have the least bit of importance.
Philip, a person can have elements of humility and be extremely sacro-mythically inflated at the same time. People can have Messiah complexes, and have moments of love, insight, and even humility (although the above isn't in the least bit humble in fact if you look a little more deeply).
They have Messiah complexes because their self-estimation is just gone off the charts; they are suffering from a delusion. If my self-estimation went far enough off the charts, I might behave in such a way that I have followers that need to be reminded that I, as a person, am insignificant and worth a little bit less than the ashes of a cigarette. As it is, my self-estimation is reasonably in balance, and consequently I don't behave in such a way that people need to be reminded of such a thing.
That's why saying something like that is actually grandiose, in an inverted way. It's not humility, but rather, grandiosity doing a humility-stunt. Usually, exhibitions of humility prove its absence. Humble people don't make exhibitions of humility. Their humility is just there all the time. There is nothing to protest.
To my worst enemies, those who hate me, damn and persecute me too much, those who criticize my books, I send them through this Christmas Message a fraternal hug filled with true love.
Likewise Samael, I give you a fraternal hug filled with true love, and wish you balanced self-estimation all of your days. Because you are not yet fully well, and I wish you full wellness.
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Hi David.
quote:
Likewise Samael, I give you a fraternal hug filled with true love, and wish you balanced self-estimation all of your days. Because you are not yet fully well, and I wish you full wellness.
I thought that derogatorry statements about other spiritual teachers and traditions was banned on the AYP forum?
quote:
Yogani Wrote:
We do not permit the bashing of any tradition, guru, or teacher ... or each other, as has already been said. It is counter-productive to our purpose here, which is the ongoing positive integration and refinement of the best methods available, regardless of source.
Surely the moderators (like yourself) exist to prevent this sort of thing, not to accentuate it?[:0]
If I said that Jesus of Nazareth was "not yet fully well" or Yogani was "not yet fully well", I think I would have the moderators on my back.
Lets not have double standards.
Christi
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Likewise Samael, I give you a fraternal hug filled with true love, and wish you balanced self-estimation all of your days. Because you are not yet fully well, and I wish you full wellness.
Namaste David:
You may have to visit him on the astral plane to exchange a fraternal hug at this point, because Victor Manuel Gomez Rodriguez...a.k.a.'Samael Aun Weor'...died nearly thirty years ago on December 24, 1977. [;)]
However, you raised a number of very valid and important questions regarding his credentials and teachings that you are not likely to receive satisfying answers to from Philip, IMO.
But that's OK, because some of the independently researched material about Samael Aun Weor, not specifically associated with the gnostic websites or the Magical Mystery Tour Channel, may be more telling and insightful in any event. [:D]
Check out this site:
http://www.answers.com/topics/samael-aun-weor
Hari OM!
Doc
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quote:
david_obsidian: VIL,
I must call foul for insinuating that I am a hypocrite, or associating me with them. If you want to associate anyone with hypocrites, please do it to yourself and leave me alone. There isn't a whit of hypocricy in any of this. That's just a red-herring insult.
quote:
david_obsidian: Whereas I am neutral on the subject matter, I have to say great job on that last post, Doc. You stated your case very well, without trying to cut anyone else down to size.
The word hypocrite was based on your claim of neutrality followed by this baited question:
quote:
Samael Aun Weor said:
Jesus studied in Egypt and practiced Sexual Magic with his priestess inside one of the pyramids.
Philip, how does Samael Aun Weor purport to know this?
And this gem of a neutral response:
quote:
david_obsidian: I see. Uh-huh. We have to have special powers like Samael Aun Weor, and only then will we see what Samael Aun Weor sees:
Saith Samael Aun Weor:
"Many people believe that Samael is just a pseudonym. No! Indeed, I am Samael! By yourselves, you have read that in Kabbalah that Samael is classified as the angel regent of Mars. In the Bible, Samael is classified as a demon. It does not matter! The fact is that I am Samael! ......"
".... Samael Aun Weor is my true name as a Boddhisattwa. Samael is the name of my Monad! I am perfectly cognizant of the dawn of life in this Solar System! I saw the dawning of Creation! I am here with this humanity, from the very first moment, since the heart of this solar system started to palpitate after the long Cosmic Night. I came here (to this planet) because my Internal God, my Father who is within me, sent me! My only purpose is to serve and help this humanity! This is why I am serving my fellowmen. This is why I am working for the sake of this humanity! ..."
So let me see: God sent Samael, and gave him great powers to see things that the rest of can't (like Jesus having sex with his gal in the pyramid). Sounds fine and dandy so far -- but I'm just scratching my head here wondering why God didn't give the One he Sent the ability to prove to the world that he can accurately see stuff that we can't?
Can you cast any light on that Philip?
quote:
david_obsidian: I don't think Christ's time is relevant. Anyone who presents himself as some sort of Messiah in the 20th century needs to answer some 20th-century questions. The biggest and most obvious one is 'why should we believe you, and not the 100,000 or so other claimants to messiah status'.
That was rich, david, but maybe you could shed some light, as to why Christ, who's Messiaship was always in question, isn't relevant to the topic at hand, let alone Gnosticism and Christianity in the 20th Century - And also why Phillip need endure the bane insults from you and Doc?
quote:
Doc: Namaste David:
You may have to visit him on the astral plane to exchange a fraternal hug at this point, because Victor Manuel Gomez Rodriguez...a.k.a.'Samael Aun Weor'...died nearly thirty years ago on December 24, 1977.
However, you raised a number of very valid and important questions regarding his credentials and teachings that you are not likely to receive satisfying answers to from Philip, IMO.
But that's OK, because some of the independently researched material about Samael Aun Weor, not specifically associated with the gnostic websites or the Magical Mystery Tour Channel, may be more telling and insightful in any event.
Check out this site:
http://www.answers.com/topics/samael-aun-weor
Hari OM!
So, it's okay to disrespect Samael Aun Weor, via hyperbole, Doc; and yet you were the first one to cry foul when david_obsidian mistakenly misspelled your guru's name? Truly amazing.
And, you, david_obsidian who got all bent out of shape when Chiron called you and Doc out on your previous behavior, toward Phillip, but rather than take responsibility, you wait for the right opportunity, passive aggressively accuse Chiron of harboring a sectarian point of view, then ask him to stop, stating that AYP isn't the place for this? LOL. Kettle, meet black.
You two enjoy each other, I'd rather not comment on the subject matter or any of your subsequent posts. Enjoy the last word, I'm sure you're entitled.
VIL
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quote:
The biggest and most obvious one is 'why should we believe you, and not the 100,000 or so other claimants to messiah status'.
Well, never have I ever seen a single statement from Samael Aun Weor regarding why his students have to believe him, in fact I have only seen the opposite. David, I already told you that he was not interested in gathering up followers. The whole thing is a non sequitur, just because you assume he wants followers doesn't mean its true. What do you actually know about his life? What do you actually know about his status? How did he live? etc, etc.
He did tell people repeatedly to not follow him, or believe in him, or to praise him, because lots and lots and lots of people of did, and still do, which is wrong. Really, it doesn't matter what theory you have about this making him even more proud, etc. A plausible, logical theory is nevertheless totally subjective (because it comes from the subject, the mind, the 'I') and has nothing to do with "proof."
Schools have already given everything they have to offer. The centers of knowledge have now been converted into places of business, each with its own tyrant that forbids its adepts and students to go out in search of knowledge. Prohibitions here, excommunications and threats there, always leaving things for tomorrow, making a big issue out of the password, the protective amulet, the nonphysical ultra secrets that no other school possesses. So these anxious tyrants hang around for centuries, gathering up their heartless henchmen.
Therefore, we are not looking for flatterers of masters nor are we interested in hard-hearted henchmen. We are just guiding pillars; so do not become attached to us because our mission is not to gather up followers. We indicate with logical thought and exact concept the path to follow so that everyone can reach his own Internal Master who dwells in silence within each one of us.
We teach you that knowledge belongs to the Innermost and that virtues and spiritual gifts are not a matter of pretense or fake humility, but rather, they (virtues and spiritual gifts) are tremendous realities that convert us into powerful and gigantic oaks so that the frailties of the mind, the threats of black magicians, the envy of tyrants will shatter against our strong character.
This course is for all the rebels in all schools, for those who do not entrust themselves to masters, for those unsatisfied with all the beliefs, for those who still have some courage and a spark of love left within them.
We are not interested in anyone’s money, nor are we interested in monthly fees, brick, cement or clay lecture halls because we are conscious visitors in the cathedral of the soul and we know that wisdom belongs to the soul. Flattery bores us, praise should only belong to our Father, who is in secret and who watches us closely.
We are not in search of followers, all we want is for each person to follow his Inner Self, his own Internal Master, his sacred Inner Being because He is the only one that can save and glorify us.
Men offer human knowledge, therefore I, Samael Aun Weor do not follow anyone but God, who offers the Bread of Life; the Truth is what shall set you free. This is why no one should follow me. Whosoever follows his Inner God will become a leader of himself and therefore, he will be blessed.
We do not want any more comedies, pretenses, false mysticism or false schools. What we want now are living realities; we want to prepare ourselves to see, hear and touch the reality of those truths. Let us seize the sword of willpower in order to break the chains of this world and boldly launch ourselves towards a remarkable battle for liberation, because we know that salvation lies within the human being. -Samael Aun Weor
quote:
So yes, one asks for proof. One is a fool not to.
There is plenty of proof to your awakened consciousness. Yet, the sleeping consciousness does not know its ass from its elbow, and this why there is so much confusion and suffering in this world. Yes, it is necessary to awaken to have proof, real objective proof. And, any individual who goes to bed at night and remains unconscious for the next eight hours, and even worse doesn't even remember his dreams (unconscious activity), sleeps profoundly. Anyone who cannot remember their past day in its total and complete entirety, down to each minute detail, is living with their consciousness sleeping. That is why this whole humanity is the living dead, and rightly so: "let the dead bury the dead," let them do what they want.
Pride is the overestimation of one's self worth and self knowledge. David, if what I stated regarding sleep fits you, then in reality, what you do have is an atom of data, a couple words, and with that you are building a monument based upon your theories, which, according to my own experience, have no bearing on truth.
You don't have to accept. You don't have to reject. That is not the objective here. The objective is to comprehend, which has nothing to do with accepting anything or rejecting anything. When you accept something on belief then you stop the ability to comprehend that thing. When you reject something, then you stop the ability of further comprehending that thing. It is the degenerate mind (sleeping consciousness) that immediately accepts and rejects all its sensations, labels them falsely and then pretends that it has comprehended it. Meditation is required to know the truth about anything. Daily meditation is to your soul and mind what a daily shower is to your body. Arguments, even mine, at the end of the day, mean nothing.
Nevertheless, I of course understand your sentiments, and wish you the best. [:)]
“Beware of false prophets.” Do not accept external Masters in the physical plane. -Samael Aun Weor
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Christi said:
I thought that derogatorry statements about other spiritual teachers and traditions was banned on the AYP forum?
You have a point, but the truth is, don't we have a double standard if members can cite their spiritual teachers as authorities, and yet the authority of the spiritual teachers can't be questioned by other members. How is that double-standard resolved?
Can Philip put forward the authority of Samael Aun Weor in such an extreme manner? Can I then question the authority of Samael Aun Weor ? And if so, how? Have I just crossed a line in how I did it, or is he to be left unquestioned? And how am I to know if someone is a 'spiritual teacher' and to be left unquestioned, or just some guy writing some questionable stuff (which is the way I saw him)?
My thinking is that I did cross a line in the sharpness of my response, and I apologize about it, though I do still believe in the substance of that I said. By the way, my wishing Samael Aun Weor a balanced self-image is totally sincere. It was not mean or cruel. I apologize if anyone found it offensive.
Philip said: and with that you are building a monument based upon your theories, which, according to my own experience, have no bearing on truth.
Likewise, I have my own lights which you may know nothing of. I can see a lot of mistakes other people can't, and the mistakes are often systematic, deep and psychological. The related ability has saved me, where others have been lost. I largely keep quiet about my inner experience, but it informs me highly. I may have a gift. Just like the line from (well, won't spoil the movie for people who haven't seen it), "I see dead people. They don't know they're dead", I see sacro-mythically inflated people, they don't know they are sacro-mythically inflated.
-
quote:
Originally posted by VIL:
So, it's okay to disrespect Samael Aun Weor, via hyperbole, Doc; and yet you were the first one to cry foul when david_obsidian mistakenly misspelled your guru's name? Truly amazing.
And, you, david_obsidian who got all bent out of shape when Chiron called you and Doc out on your previous behavior, toward Phillip, but rather than take responsibility, you wait for the right opportunity, passive aggressively accuse Chiron of harboring a sectarian point of view, then ask him to stop, stating that AYP isn't the place for this? LOL. Kettle, meet black.
Yo, VIL:
1) As I recall, Philip specifically stated that the gnostic catholic church he was referring to existed in the "superior worlds", and that said 'church' and its teachings could only be accessed through astral travel to these worlds. It was also stated that the gnostic teachings could truly be known only through the study of akashic records in these celestial realms. As such, if anyone accepts those statements as factual and true, it certainly isn't any stretch of the imagination to consider this to be the place to encounter Samael Aun Weor since his death 30 years ago! How, therefore, is suggesting that he could perhaps be contacted there to be seen as disrespectful?
2) David did in fact raise valid and important questions regarding the credentials and the 'authority' of Mr. Rodriguez's teachings, which I felt were clearly answered in the neutral, unbiased biographical information provided through the link I posted. [:)]
3) I initially felt that David had deliberately misspelled Swami Narayanananda's name several times as an intended slight or insult. When confronted with that perspective, he was quick to assure me that this was not the case. I accepted his reply as true, since 'Narayanananda' is an admittedly cumbersome name in English, and we moved on from there. That's now a dead-issue since then, and really isn't a very good analogy persuant to this discussion at present. [xx(]
4) I cannot speak for David, but for my part, there was nothing "passive" about confronting Chiron's comments. His posts have in fact echoed Philip's posts with a decidedly biased, sectarian view of the subject matter at hand. And that has been quite clear, IMO.
5) What I have requested from the outset is that the gnostic teachings regarding Jesus and Christianity be presented only as exactly that...the gnostic teachings and views...but not be repeatedly presented as the only accurate, true, and authoritative teachings and views on these subjects solely because the writings of Victor Rodriguez/Samael Aun Weor say so. That's not unreasonable or unfair, and certainly not disrespectful. I honor the right of anyone here to believe what they personally choose to, but not their self-appointed right to choose for anyone else.
6) Before you get into accusing the kettle of calling the pot black, you might wish to re-read your own previous posts for assessment according to the same 'standard' you apply to others. [;)]
"First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye" Luke 6:42
Doc
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip
quote:
Quote by Samael Aun Weor:
"We know the life of the Great Master and we know that Jesus was really a complete man in the fullest sense of the word. Jesus had a priestess wife, because he was not an infrasexual. The wife of Jesus was evidently a complete Lady Adept, endowed with great secret powers. Jesus traveled through Europe and was a member of a Mediterranean Mystery School. Jesus studied in Egypt and practiced Sexual Magic with his priestess inside one of the pyramids. That is how he recapitulated the initiations and later achieved the Venustic Initiation. Jesus traveled through Persia, India, etc. Thus, the Great Master was a Master in the most complete sense of the word. Jesus lived the drama of the Passion; nonetheless, he was not the only one who has lived it. Prior to him, some Initiates like Hermes, Quetzalcoatl, Krishna, Orpheus, Buddha etc., lived it. After Him, a few others have lived it. The drama of the Passion is cosmic...
Jesus was a complete man. Jesus was not the castrated one who many religions depicted. Jesus followed the Path of the Perfect Matrimony. Jesus formed the Christ within himself by practicing Sexual Magic with his wife. What we are stating will shock fanatics... - The Perfect Matrimony
Quoting Samael Aun Weor is one thing, and quoting Philip is another (no attack intended).
The question for me is whether Philip is identifying with the quote
from Samael Aun Weor.
Philip, do you justify your truth with Samael Aun Weor's quotes,
or have you come by experience to the same conclusions ?
That is, have you looked up the Akashic Records yourself, and are
you able to look up these records ?
And are you considering that in the astral planes anything can be
shown to you and the perception of your truth (as well as mine)
depends on our ability to grasp the truth.
Love and Light
Wolfgang
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VIL, I said I was "neutral on the subject matter" because I wanted it to be clear that I was commending the way Doc had written his post (in the context of all that went before it), as opposed to taking a side in some ongoing dispute, whose boundaries and participants are not even clear to me. It's a bit strange to go from there to thinking I can be fairly labelled a hypocrite because I then provide an opinion on something new that came up. That's really absurd.
The rule not to make personal attacks on people is a very important one. Which is about not labelling people offensively. So, that's for your awareness, something to work with. It's not a big black mark on your copybook or anything. [:)]
And, you, david_obsidian who got all bent out of shape when Chiron called you and Doc out on your previous behavior, toward Phillip, but rather than take responsibility, you wait for the right opportunity, passive aggressively accuse Chiron of harboring a sectarian point of view, then ask him to stop, stating that AYP isn't the place for this? LOL. Kettle, meet black.
Gosh. It's amazing how two people have an entirely different interpretation of events. There was a fight building up and I saw myself as the humorous peace-maker in all that, humorously reminding people that they were playing a game they were accusing the 'other' of playing, and trying to get them out of the fight. I thought the participants in question would take it with some humor, and I think they did. If I were to go back again I would only modify it by making it a little easier to take.
-
quote:
david_obsidian: The rule not to make personal attacks on people is a very important one. Which is about not labelling people offensively. So, that's for your awareness, something to work with. It's not a big black mark on your copybook or anything.
No, david, the above is an example of a double standard brought to your attention. Regardless, I refuse to sit back and watch you and Doc attack Phillip any longer. No matter how many times you two attempt to justify your behavior.
This will be my last post. yogani, Christi, Katrine, emc, Phillip, Kyman, Kirtman and everyone else... it's been a pleasure:
[:D]
yogani, please take me off of your members list.
Thank you:
[xx(]
VIL
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Goodbye VIL. If you change your mind, we're here. [:)]
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Adios, Amigo. Vaya con Dios! You'll be missed. [:)]
Hari OM!
Doc
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quote:
Quoting Samael Aun Weor is one thing, and quoting Philip is another (no attack intended).
The question for me is whether Philip is identifying with the quote
from Samael Aun Weor.
Philip, do you justify your truth with Samael Aun Weor's quotes,
or have you come by experience to the same conclusions ?
That is, have you looked up the Akashic Records yourself, and are
you able to look up these records?
And are you considering that in the astral planes anything can be
shown to you and the perception of your truth (as well as mine)
depends on our ability to grasp the truth.
Love and Light
Wolfgang
Samael Aun Weor's words are much more authoritative than mine, thus, I quote him as I do many other spiritual masters. There is a great deal of wisdom in the 60 odd books he wrote.
Now, from my point of view, Jesus performing "sexual magic," meaning, intercourse without orgasm ever with a priestess is obvious and essential if one considers him a prophet, because no one can be born again without sex. How exactly that occurred, under what circumstances, I don't have any direct vision of that.
Concerning the astral plane. Yes, the astral plane can be extremely subjective. Case in point is our dreams, this occurs in the inferior astral world. What ones "sees," whether subjective or objective, is always a combination of imagination applied through willpower. When that will is trapped in desire, the outcome is a dream, or any manner of a subjective vision. When that willpower is liberated, then through the mirror of the imagination, any event, past, present, or future can be viewed. The clarity and depth of comprehension depends upon the abilities of the meditator.
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Thanks Doc for the link. I picked up some more of Samael Aun Weor, which I was starting to expect:
Likewise, Samael Aun Weor calls homosexuals "rotten seeds" in his work Yes there is Hell, a Devil, and Karma because unlike heterosexuals they do not have the ability to fecundate the Solar Bodies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael_Aun_Weor
I'd invite people to take a look at the picture at the link. Samael Aun Weor does not look very happy or serene, and even looks angry. Let everyone judge for himself. You guys can believe him that he is the Angel Regent of Mars, but I'm going with my gut on this one. No, other people here are free to differ, but I don't believe Samael Aun Weor is an Angel Regent, an authority on Gnosis, a Boddhisattwa, an authority on spiritual knowledge, or in particular any kind of authority on the real meaning of the Bible or Jesus' message or Christianity.
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Yes, but he does have a god-sized ego, and is quite adept at masturbation of the brain.
I know, I'm not worthy of his information-from-god, because I would have to understand a whole bunch of thick boring books first.
He loves it when people say stuff like this; see his quote above.
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Wow, I didn't realize that Samael Aun Weor said things like that. I guess I got a little too involved with this topic and wasn't seeing things from a healthy perspective. I couldn't disagree more with Samael's statement. I personally find the comment offensive.
Thank you for sharing that, david, and I apologize to you, and Doc, and anyone else that I have offended with my comments. I'm going to take yogani's advice, from a similar topic, and stick to things that are productive [can't remember his exact wording] and decided to stay with AYP, thanks in part to trip1 who was caring enough to send me an email. Btw, I plan on getting yogani's 'The secret of Wilder' book on Friday.
Peace, love, laughter, and all of that namaste stuff:
[:D]
VIL
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I'm glad you are staying VIL. We do value your contributions! [:)]
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Thanks, weaver, I feel the same about you and all the members of this forum:
[:)]
VIL
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quote:
Originally posted by weaver
I'm glad you are staying VIL. We do value your contributions! [:)]
Welcome back, VIL! [:D]
I, too, am happy to see you posting here again. I have enjoyed your insights on various topics many times thus far, and would have sincerely missed your ongoing presence in these discussions. [:p] Thanks for your apology, too. No hard hard feelings here. You're still loved and appreciated the same as before. [:)] We're cool! [8D]
Many thanks to you, David, for boldly offering your astute observations in the face of much criticism. I for one am in total agreement with you. [^] Initially, I wanted to post such observations myself. I decided instead, however, to merely post the link to a source of unbiased, factual information about Victor Rodriguez/Samael Aun Weor for all of you to examine, so that you could then come to your own conclusions...based on your own observations, whatever those observations might ultimately be.
In this way, Samael Aun Weor's beliefs and teachings are probably more easily assessed on the basis of his own published and recorded words, rather than in reaction to someone else's words regarding him and his teachings. [;)]
Warm regards to all ~
Doc
-
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Likewise, Samael Aun Weor calls homosexuals "rotten seeds" in his work Yes there is Hell, a Devil, and Karma because unlike heterosexuals they do not have the ability to fecundate the Solar Bodies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael_Aun_Weor
And Christianity is in agreement with his words:
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Lev 20:13
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death." 1 Cor 6:9
Tantra requires the participation of both sexes in order to achieve divine union. Gnosticism and AYP I think are in agreement on that. Homosexuals are searching for the right thing (union of the musculine and femine energies within themselves) but they are doing it in an incorrect (exoteric) and misguided fashion. So Samuel is correct in that they "do not have the ability to fecundate the Solar Bodies" for they cannot receive the fruits of tantra.
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
I'd invite people to take a look at the picture at the link. Samael Aun Weor does not look very happy or serene, and even looks angry.
I can't tell if he doesn't look very happy, serene or angry but I know that not all anger leads to degradation. If you get angry at another's illusions and wrongdoing, changing them, then this anger can lead to your own development in the future. Anger, if controlled and channelled properly can be a force for progress, just like sex..
Jonah 4:1,4,9b - But this was very displeasing to Jonah, and he became angry. And the Lord said, "Is it right for you to be angry?" And he said, "Yes, angry enough to die."
John 2:14-15 - In the temple Jesus found people selling cattle, sheep and doves, and money changers seated at their tables. Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple.
Matthew 10:34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
This is because in a world of lies, the sword of truth is what is required. If demons were to be forgiven, they would become even more wicked. If a man shows aggression it does not necessarily mean he is not an Angel Regent, an authority on Gnosis, a Boddhisattwa, or an authority on spiritual knowledge. To know whether this man is all these things or not we would need experiential knowledge (gnosis), or qualitative knowledge as Doc puts it. Otherwise we simply have a choice of trying the practices he set out or not.
I have been in hospital recently and was unable to get out of bed for a couple of days. Prior to that I downloaded a few gnostic lectures onto my mp3 player. Listening to those lectures was my spiritual practice for those two days. Not only have they filled many gaps in my knowledge of many religions but they have also filled some gaps in my daily practice (eg. reviewing my daily conduct everyday before falling asleep). I have found benefit from this teaching, so I am thankful that this heated discussion took place.
-
Thanks, Doc, for your words of sentiment: [:)]
I think it best to back away from this topic and enjoy all of the other things that AYP has to offer:
Thanks again:
[:)]
Edit: I have to leave this food for thought:
"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Matt: 19:12
VIL
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Chiron said:
And Christianity is in agreement with his words:
...
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death." 1 Cor 6:9
Chiron, I'm not a Christian myself, and don't look at the Bible as a specially-authorized word of god. But I can say that for sure, it in 2007, 'Christianity is in agreement with him' is questionable either in meaning or correctness or both.
I would like to have something clarified here, because I am not sure what you are saying. The way you put that allows you to put forward an idea which is abhorrent to many, while you can possibly dodge responsibility for it yourself. Can you clarify what you mean to say? When you say "Christianity is in agreement with him", are you putting those ideas forward in order to give them support? I mean, on the face of it, he's calling homosexuals 'rotten seeds', you are saying Christianity is in agreement with him, and quoting from some unknown tribal middle-eastern preacher/writer of a few thousand years ago who says that God says that people should put to death for homosexual practices. Again, to what extent are you supporting these ideas and putting them forward yourself?
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VIL, welcome back to the forum! I'm glad that is one of the briefest departures on record! Doc, glad to be able to help, or should I say, participate! [:)] Regards to all.
-
LOL. Thanks, david, glad to be back. Although I was gone for only a couple of hours, it felt like an eternity. LOL:
[:D]
VIL
-
There has been a misquote:
1 Corinthians 6:9, which is written by Paul, actually is:
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul also stated in Romans 1:26-27:
Because of this cause, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Whether or not these statements are in agreement with statements made by Samael Aun Weor is up to the judgment of the reader.
24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' " - Matthew 13
-
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Chiron said:
And Christianity is in agreement with his words:
...
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death." 1 Cor 6:9
Chiron, I'm not a Christian myself, and don't look at the Bible as a specially-authorized word of god. But I can say that for sure, it in 2007, 'Christianity is in agreement with him' is questionable either in meaning or correctness or both.
I would like to have something clarified here, because I am not sure what you are saying. The way you put that allows you to put forward an idea which is abhorrent to many, while you can possibly dodge responsibility for it yourself. Can you clarify what you mean to say? When you say "Christianity is in agreement with him", are you putting those ideas forward in order to give them support? I mean, on the face of it, he's calling homosexuals 'rotten seeds', you are saying Christianity is in agreement with him, and quoting from some unknown tribal middle-eastern preacher/writer of a few thousand years ago who says that God says that people should put to death for homosexual practices. Again, to what extent are you supporting these ideas and putting them forward yourself?
In this thread we are discussing the Kabbalah, Gnosticism and Christianity. That is why I am quoting the Bible. To me, the Bible = Christianity. It is not a source of authority for me either, for my heart is the authority on these subjects. The Bible is a tool for confirmation.
Oh, and don't worry David, everyone will be put to death sooner or later.. it is how people handle their death is what will be the difference. I see you are still picking on irrelevant points..
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No dodging now, Chiron, "put to death" means executed. It does not mean "die", so it does not happen to all of us. "Shall" has a meaning more like "Should" here; in fact, many translations say "should" because it is closer to modern English. That is what that unknown middle-eastern preacher wrote. He is declaring that homosexuals should be killed for homosexual acts. And you are quoting him in support of Samael Aun Weor.
Now, are you supporting the claim that homosexuals are bad seeds or are you not? Because you seem to be. And where are you on the claim that they should be executed? Because you seem to be.
Please take responsibility for exactly what you mean to say. Remember: you are responsible for what you say God says. I'm not just picking on you here: clarity on this matter is of great importance. No more dodging please.
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LoL.
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Namaste Philip:
I think that the statements of Samael Aun Weor are in agreement with the Holy Scriptures insofar as disapproval and condemnation of homosexuality is concerned, but apparently for different reasons.
Weor's stated reason is that homosexual relations are not capable of spiritually fecundating....i.e.'impregnating' or 'fertilizing'....their 'Solar Bodies', if I read that correctly.
The reason in the Holy Scriptures is directly related to observation of the physical design and function of the sex organs in both genders, as well as observation of the apparent purpose of sexual attractions and sexual union of male and female, as witnessed in the vast majority of living species on this planet...i.e. propagation of the species. As such, this perspective has always been viewed by most people in every culture as the 'natural' norm throughout the history of humanity.
Were this not the case, none of us would even be here to discuss the issue, had we not been blessed with parents whose sexual activity led to a pregnancy which culminated in our live births. This has appeared to be pretty straight forward and obvious to most folks, particularly prior to the advent of 'free love' during the 'sexual revolution' of the 1960's, and the subsequently widespread use of 'birth control' measures and abortions to deal with unwanted pregnancies.
Since then, men and women have enjoyed much greater freedom to engage in sexual activity without as much risk of pregnancy. Thus, sex solely for the sake of the physical pleasure it entails, via every conceivable variety of sexual expression and practice, including homosexuality, has generally become much more openly accepted by society at large. This was NOT an option for most people anywhere prior to the past 50 years, when regular sexual activity most often eventually resulted in a pregnancy, as apparently intended by Nature. As the father of five children myself, I can attest to this truth from my own personal experience! [;)]
Aside from the seemingly obvious biological factors, however, the Scriptures also insist on the Sacredness of the Body by stating...."He who unites himself with the Lord becomes One with Him in Spirit. Do you not know that your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit Who dwells within you, which you have from God, and thus you are not your own? Therefore, glorify God in your body and in your spirit, because they belong to God." 1 Cor.6:17,19,20
I pass no personal judgement on anyone here regarding their personal sexual preferences....that's between you and God to work out....but am merely offering the traditional Christian perspective regarding this topic. [:p]
Doc
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It's quite understandable that before the age of contraception, prohibitions on sexual behavior were severe; it's also therefore natural that those prohibitions generalized to any kind of sexual relations, since societal mores are not always entirely rational. And it is one thing to discuss scriptural meanings and spiritual teachings. But it is quite another thing to be willing to come across in support of a characterization of homosexuals as "bad seeds".... Well, I have said what I need to say and time for me to move on, I think.
Now, where were we --- oh yes, back to the Magical Mystery Tour! I am indebted to Doc for that reference too, which I have chased down, and found some verse from some not-so-ancient bards, wherein there is an important message for us all. Pay particular attention to the phrases which I have underlined:
Here we go....
Magical Mystery Tour (Lennon/McCartney)
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up AND THAT'S AN INVITATION, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up TO MAKE A RESERVATION, roll up for the mystery tour.
The magical mystery tour is waiting to take you away,
Waiting to take you away.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up WE'VE GOT EVERYTHING YOU NEED, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up SATISFACTION GUARANTEED, roll up for the mystery tour.
The magical mystery tour is hoping to take you away,
Hoping to take you away.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up AND THAT'S AN INVITATION, roll up for the mystery tour.
Roll up TO MAKE A RESERVATION, roll up for the mystery tour.
The magical mystery tour is coming to take you away,
Coming to take you away.
The magical mystery tour is dying to take you away,
Dying to take you away, take you away.
-
Doc,
quote:
Aside from the seemingly obvious biological factors, however, the Scriptures also insist on the Sacredness of the Body by stating...."He who unites himself with the Lord becomes One with Him in Spirit. Do you not know that your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit Who dwells within you, which you have from God, and thus you are not your own? Therefore, glorify God in your body and in your spirit, because they belong to God." 1 Cor.6:17,19,20
Yes, let us combine that with the following:
28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. - Mark 3:28-29
When a sin is not forgiven, then it is a debt that repaid to the "jot" with suffering.
The word "fecundating" is used to describe the process of being "born again" of the "water" (sexuality) and the (Holy) Spirit.
The solar bodies are the soul, but divided into the vehicles of thought, emotion, and will.
The final reason is that only the Law of Three can create: Phallus + Uterus + Holy Spirit (sex). This is the Positive, Negative, and Neutral forces. This is the Proton, Electron, and Neutron.
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""You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Lev 20:13 "
I really have my doubts about Leviticus. In my eyes, it is the one book that I don't
believe should be in the bible. Is it really in tune with the teaching of Jesus?
Below is a bunch of other stuff from Leviticus. All of this is supposedly spoken
by god through Moses. Do modern christians practice these things? most will tell
you it was only for Moses' people, or the old testament was laid aside in favor
of jesus' teachings in the new testament.
well, then the statement about homosexuality must also be put aside.
Otherwise, we had better practice the following.
It's all in leviticus:
(this is a numbered list; it's not the verse numbers)
1) offer a bull, or better yet, a herd of cattle to the lord, and especially a burnt sacrifice.
2) sprinkle the cow's blood around the altar.
3) kill a sheep or goat at the altar.
4) wash the intestines and legs, and burn them on the altar
5) or twist off a pidgeon's head and pour the blood by the altar
6) god likes salt on his meat offerings
7) god doesn't like the kidneys or kidney fat.
8) the fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out
9) everyone who touches the burnt offerings is holy, but favor the males.
10) if any of the blood gets on your clothes, you have to wash them in the church.
11) if ANY of the flesh of peace offerings is eaten on the third day it is an abomination
12) if you eat any of the meat designated for god, you will be banished
13) if you eat blood, you will be banished
14) the lord commanded Moses to bring out Aaron's son's, and put coats, girdles,
and bonnets on them (LOL)
15) but then Moses splattered blood and oil on their clothes.
16) it is an abomination to eat seafood without scales or fins, but you can eat
locusts, beetles and grasshoppers.
17) a male baby makes the mom unclean for a week, then he must be circumsized,
but a baby girl makes her unclean for two weeks.
18) if you have a scab or boil, you should have a priest check for leprosy.
If the priest decides you have leprosy, they tear your clothes off, cover
your upper lip, and cry "unclean, unclean."
19) if a leper looks like he is healing, there is a bunch of rituals you can perform
involving lots of animal blood and a priest that will make him clean.
20) a woman who has menstruation is unclean, but can stay away from
everyone for a week, and keep washing everything, and have the priest
sacrifice a couple birds, and she will be clean.
21) it's OK to own slaves, as long as they are not from your own country.
22) No blind or lame man may approach the altar, or anyone with a broken
foot or hand, or a flat nose, or a scab or blemish on his eye, or a dwarf.
23) if a priest's daughter is a whore, we should burn her.
24) a farmer shouldn't plant two kinds of seed in the same field
25) men shouldn't trim their hair or beards.
26) we shouldn't wear clothes made of two kinds of fiber.
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Hi everyone:
quote:
And I say unto you: Look not to the scriptures, for the scriptures are dead. In everything that hath life is the law written. In the birds of the air, in the fishes of the sea, in the trees, in the hills and the rivers...
Jesus Christ (from the Gospel of peace of Jesus Christ found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.)
Christi
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip[/i:
"....only the Law of Three can create: Phallus + Uterus + Holy Spirit (sex). This is the Positive, Negative, and Neutral forces. This is the Proton, Electron, and Neutron."
We part ways here again, Philip, with Samael Weor's gnostic interpretation of the 'Law of Three', particularly in his assignment of sexual interpretations as the primary meaning of this Law. In particular, to reduce the Holy Spirit to nothing more than sexual energy and carnal activity is especially offensive to Traditional Christianity. It would be considered blasphemously disrespectful and irreverent towards God for most Christians. I tell you this only for the remote possibility that you don't already realize this, so that you might better understand why such teachings have met with so much resistance and negative reaction from the disapproving Christian majority. [V]
The Eastern Orthodox Esoteric Christian Tradition of Apostolic Succession teaches the 'Cosmic Law of Three' to represent 'Space', 'Time', and 'Equilibrium', respectively. According to this Esoteric Tradition, the 'Cosmic Law of Three' states the observation that everything which exists in the created Universe, exists as a result of the simultaneous, converging action of 'Three Universal Forces' on the same point at the same time. These Three Forces are namely: 1) the Passive/Static Force of Space; 2) the Active/Dynamic Force of Time; and 3) the Neutral/Balancing Force of Equilibrium.
It is therefore believed that everything which is created through the Divine Providence of God's Holy Will and Sacred Presence in the Universe reflects the 'Cosmic Law of Three'. The ideas and inventions of human creation, however, often reflect an absence of energetic harmony among these Three Universal Forces by comparison.
Using the example of sex from this discussion, females of most species provide eggs which may be potentially fertilized by males, along with attractive physical qualities, and perhaps seductive behaviors, which essentially represent the Passive/Static Force of Creation awaiting response from males.
Males provide the fertilizing seeds or semen, which have no creative potential unless united with a female egg, and in most species, males normally respond to the attracting physical qualities and seductive behaviors of females by pursuing them with their Active/Dynamic Force of Creation.
The expression of Mutual Physical Attraction through Sexual Union of a Male and a Female represents the Neutral/Balancing Force of Equilibrium in the Divine Plan of Creation. For humans especially, this also ideally includes a continuation of the mutually attracting factors in an ongoing sexual relationship, accompanied by the expression of mutual emotional love for one another. This natural bond between the sexes helps to create and maintain the long term relationship needed to cooperatively nourish, support, educate, and otherwise provide for the needs of their children. [^]
To understand the Eastern Orthodox Christian perspective on homosexuality, it helps tremendously to realize that all of the first Christians, with the sole exception of the initial Jewish Apostles and Disciples of Jesus, were Pagan Gentile converts to Christianity. As such, they came from Eastern cultures and societies in which homosexuality was quite prevalent, and frequently encountered. It was well known, therefore, that homosexual preferences did not necessarily indicate, per se, that such individuals were 'bad' or 'evil' anymore than anyone else. It was acknowledged that a person's intentions in pursuing sexual activity of any kind determined their moral and ethical nature regarding their sexuality.
Thus, it is understood that homosexual relationships based on the same factors of ongoing mutual attraction and emotional love, and continuing mutual support mentioned earlier, might well be established and maintained with Balance and Equilibrium in the same way as a heterosexual relationship, but simply lack the procreative potential intended for sexual unions of males with females. As such, homosexual relationships are not considered the intended norm since they do not contribute to the propagation of the species. Thus, homosexuality is merely viewed as incomplete in purpose, and as lacking natural synchronicity with the majority of the species.
Homosexual activity is generally only viewed as morally wrong or 'evil' by Orthodox Christianity in cases of non-consentual, forced participation, such as same gender sexual assaults, just like non-consentual opposite sex rapes. In both instances, usually no bond of love is present, mutual attraction is absent, and the motivating intention and outcome is always negative. [:(]
Hari OM!
Doc
-
I agree with most of this, but am wondering about this:
"Using the example of sex from this discussion, females of most species provide eggs which may be potentially fertilized by males, along with attractive physical qualities, and perhaps seductive behaviors, which essentially represent the Passive/Static Force of Creation awaiting response from males.
In this topic;
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1820
we talk about immaculate conception. I mentioned that over 70 species of reptiles are capable of parthenogenesis, or having babies without any male participation. So would this imply that these reptiles are some sort of abomination, or maybe the three forces only apply to humans? Or is the knowledge about three forces something that is changing as an increasing number of species that can reproduce unilaterally is discovered?
-
quote:
Originally posted by Doc
quote:
Originally posted by Philip[/i:
"....only the Law of Three can create: Phallus + Uterus + Holy Spirit (sex). This is the Positive, Negative, and Neutral forces. This is the Proton, Electron, and Neutron."
We part ways here again, Philip, with Samael Weor's gnostic interpretation of the 'Law of Three', particularly in his assignment of sexual interpretations as the primary meaning of this Law. In particular, to reduce the Holy Spirit to nothing more than sexual energy and carnal activity is especially offensive to Traditional Christianity. It would be considered blasphemously disrespectful and irreverent towards God for most Christians. I tell you this only for the remote possibility that you don't already realize this, so that you might better understand why such teachings have met with so much resistance and negative reaction from the disapproving Christian majority. [V]
Well, there is no doubt that we do indeed part ways, yet let me clarify a little bit for those interested.
The primary meaning of the Law of Three would not necessarily be "sexual;" within the relationship between a man and a woman, it is though. It is simply the archetypal active, passive and neutral. In physics, this is centripetal, centrifugal, and the balance between them.
It is necessary to understand what I mean by "sex" and "sexuality" in relationship to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what impregnates the Virgin Mother, so here we must understand that there is a connection between sex and the Holy Spirit. In no way, however, does the Holy Spirit have anything to do with: orgasm, lust, masturbation, adultery, pornography, or any other carnal activity. The Holy Spirit, does, on the other had have to do with: love, chastity, scantity, purity, immaculate conception, etc.
This means that the "normal" understanding (and action) of the intercourse has nothing directly to do with the Holy Spirit.
In the esotericism I study, fornication means the orgasm in any form whatsoever. It doesn't matter if you are married. It is much better to fornicate with a spouse, but nevertheless this is still fornication.
In the Kabbalah, the name of God for Binah is Jehovah Elohim. This is the name of God mainly used in Genesis. The other name used is Ruach Elohim, which means "Spirit of God." Binah is the third principle of the uppermost triangle on the Otz Chiim (Tree of Life), which corresponds to the third aspect of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit.
When we read Genesis it is important to understand that it is the Spirit of God (Ruach Elohim) that hovers over the face of the waters, not simply God (Elohim).
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
So, here we have Spirit of God in relationship to the Water, just like the Holy Spirit has a direct relationship with the Water. The Spirit of God has within it the seed of all creation, thus it is the "Spirit of God" that impregnates the Waters of Genesis.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually disconcerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14
Why is the natural man not able to receive the Spirit of God? Because he fornicates (orgasm) the sexual energy, which is physical, biological manifestation of the Creative Potential of God, the Ruach, the Spirit, so instead of creating a spiritual nature within, the Heavenly Man, it goes out, and creates children of the original sin, which is the orgasm.
The orgasm is the eating of the Fruit that Jehovah Elohim (Holy Spirit) said not to. The fruit of man is his sexual energy. God said be fruitful and multiply, not Be unfruitful and multiply. You cannot be fruitful if you "eat" the "fruit"! There is no reason to reach orgasm, you can have children without the orgasm. One sperm can leave without wasting millions, if God chooses so.
Likewise, we can recount traditions across the world that state the semen is very important to preserve if one wishes to progress on a spiritual path. The best thing to do is to connect with a loving spouse, have intercourse, but stop before reaching the spasm. It is that simple, this way the Spirit of God hovers of the Waters inside the souls of the couple, instead of being expelled into Nature. There is nothing unclean about sex, what is unclean is the orgasm (fornication), and its children which are lust and adultery, which, in sum, is satan. The Eastern cultures talk about how giving birth is "unclean." This is because every birth has been from fornication. Yet, Buddha's birth is said to be clean, because the (interior) Buddha (tathagatagarba) is born through white tantrism, which has no orgasm. This is also why, according to the Old Testament, there are these "crazy" rules:
And if any man’s seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even.
The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.
– Leviticus 15: 16 - 18
Thus shall ye separate the children of Israel from the uncleanness; that they die not in their uncleanness, when they defile my tabernacle that is among them [through the orgasm, or spilling of semen].
– Leviticus 15:31
He that is wounded in the stones, or that his privy member cut off, shall not enter unto the congregation of Jehvoah Elohim.
– Deuteronomy 23:1
The NT says it like this:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
– 1 John 3:9
This is why Jesus stated that if you even look at another person with lust, you have already committed adultery. It is true. Because the only way that is possible, is if you have developed lust within you through the orgasm. Not just in this life but in any previous life lived. The orgasm is a creative act, but besides creating children of fornication, it creates within, which is satan, the anti-christ, the ego, the "Legion" that only Christ can remove, etc.
The Holy Matrimony is a TRI-mony between Man, Woman, and God. The true ritual of marriage is the sexual act itself, yet Paul states the following:
But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
Those that are married should be as those who are not married. Someone who is not married, according to exoteric tradition, should never reach orgasm. So, if you are married, perform the act of marriage (sex), but be as though you are not married, and refrain from the orgasm.
Paul also states that if you can be like him, which means to be already born again of the Holy Spirit, then you should not partake in the sexual act all. Because, if you are like him, then the Seven Days of "Creation" is already done within your soul, you should be not performing the creative act, you must restjust as Jehovah Elohim rests when the Creation is done. Yet, very, very, few people are truly "born again," so they should marry, and act as if they are not married.
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Hi Philip,
Great post. It is really interesting for me to read your posts as you obviously have a great deal of insight into the real meaning of many of the biblical texts. I have often studied these texts using the traditional Christian interpretations and explanations but have so often found them to be woefully lacking as I am sure so many others have.
I was wondering, what does it mean to be born again? You touched on this before, but I couldn't get it? Does it relate to the awakening of the Kundalini energy, and to the opening of the chakras? And what does it mean for the "seven days of creation" to be already done in a person? Does this also relate to the seven chakras, or the seven human bodies, or the seven realms of consciousness?
Christi
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Philip said:
In the esotericism I study, fornication means the orgasm in any form whatsoever. It doesn't matter if you are married. It is much better to fornicate with a spouse, but nevertheless this is still fornication.
Gosh. One wonders why the writers of those old texts didn't refer to the orgasm? I mean, why did they say "fornicate" when they meant "have an orgasm"? Because the two mean two very different things. Lack of vocabulary at the time? No, they had words and phrases for orgasm, as pretty much every culture does. In fact, the writers of those old texts weren't in the least bit dainty or Victorian and were well able to call a spade a spade sexually.
I know! They didn't want to be clear on what they meant because if the mystery was taken away then we wouldn't have our Magical Mystery Tour! [8D]
La la! The Magical Mystery Tour is coming to take you away!
-
quote:
Originally posted by Philip
In the esotericism I study, fornication means the orgasm in any form whatsoever. It doesn't matter if you are married. It is much better to fornicate with a spouse, but nevertheless this is still fornication.
Hi Philip,
you keep posting quotes, and here you state that you are studying
esotericism and you keep stating things of which I am not
sure whether you completely identify with that teaching or if
you are just advertising that teaching.
So, I would be very glad if you could explain your own view
about orgasm.
Can orgasm in your viewpoint be an experienc of the divine ?
Any orgasm (with or without ejaculation) or no orgasm at all ?
Looking forward to your response
-
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish:
In this topic;
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1820
we talk about immaculate conception. I mentioned that over 70 species of reptiles are capable of parthenogenesis, or having babies without any male participation. So would this imply that these reptiles are some sort of abomination, or maybe the three forces only apply to humans? Or is the knowledge about three forces something that is changing as an increasing number of species that can reproduce unilaterally is discovered?
I neither stated any such implication of abomination, nor was one intended. The 'Cosmic Law of Three' and the 'Three Universal Forces' are applicable to all life forms, not only humans.
The examples of parthenogenesis found among some species of living creatures are viewed as a part of God's Divine Providence Plan for their survival strategy, based on the needs and resources of their environment, or perhaps based on other factors known only to God, whereby the Neutral/Balancing Force of Equilibrium is self-contained along with the Passive/Static Force of Creation and the Active/Dynamic Force of Creation, thus eliminating the need for a Union of Opposite Genders to procreate. This is also true of self-replicating plant species, and other life-forms ranging from microscopic organisms to advanced life-forms, which reproduce in a similar fashion.
Doc
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Philip:
There is so much variance in the quoted teachings and writings of Samael Aun Weor from Traditional Jewish and Christian Theology that I can hardly decide what to address first. [:0]
Perhaps a good starting point for now would be his/your use of the word 'fornicate'. The etymology of this word comes from the Latin Language word 'fornicari', meaning "the illicit sexual intercourse of unmarried partners". The Past Participle of this word is 'fornicatus', which indicates past commission of such an illicit sexual intercourse. The English words 'fornicate','fornication', and 'fornicator' are derived from this Latin word. It was NEVER used in reference to marital sexual intercourse, and still shouldn't be used in this way. Check your dictionary! [;)]
In Biblical times, due to the absence of an effective means to prevent pregnancy, 99.99% of all sexually active women were married, and enjoyed sexual intercourse ONLY with their husbands. In fact, during Biblical times in the Holy Land, a married woman who became pregnant by a man other than her husband, or a single woman who became pregnant before marriage, would have been stoned to death for their sexual impropriety. [xx(]
Women with multiple sexual partners were therefore generally 'working girls' or 'harlots'. Thus, the term 'fornication' was used in reference to the sexual intercourse of brothel prostitutes with their customers, to whom they were not married. The term 'fornicator' was therefore used in reference to both parties in such transactions. This is the meaning intended and understood in the Holy Scriptures. It is not used in reference to an 'orgasm' of any kind. [V]
The Personal Divine Name with which God identified Himself to Moses on Mt. Horeb is 'Yahweh', Hebrew for 'I AM THAT I AM'. Over time, the Hebrews came to consider this Personal Name of God too sacred to speak casually, and even disrespectful to utter aside from the Solemn Liturgical Rites and Ceremonies of the Temple in Jerusalem. As a result, the more general term for 'God'...'Elohim'...was substituted instead for home prayer devotions and synagogue use.
Then Moses said to God, 'I am to go, then, to the sons of Israel and say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you". But if they ask me what His name is, what am I to tell them?' And God said to Moses, 'I AM THAT I AM'. This is what you must say to the sons of Israel: "I AM has sent me". And God also said to Moses, 'You are to say to the sons of Israel: "Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent you". This is my name for all time; by this name I shall be invoked for all generations to come'. Exodus 3:13-15
The name 'Jehovah' is a corruption of the original 'Yahweh'. Such corruption came about when attempts to translate Hebrew words into other languages were undertaken. The written Hebrew words do not include the vowels, thus posing a problem with translating the Divine Name of 'YHWH'. German Biblical scholars substituted the letter 'J' for the 'Y' in order to duplicate the equivalent sound in the German Language, just as they did in translating the name 'Yeshu' into 'Jesu', which later became 'Jesus'. These scholars essentially only guessed at what the original and true form the the Divine Personal Name might be, and how it might be pronounced aloud with the proper vowels included, and eventually decided on 'Jehovah'.
The Ancient Hebrew term for the Spirit of God is 'Ruach ha-Kodesh', the 'Spirit of Holiness' or the 'Holy Spirit'. The earliest Jewish born Christians borrowed this traditional Hebrew term to directly and accurately refer to the Third Person of the Holy Trinity...the 'Holy Spirit'.
Perhaps I'll address other points in your posts later, but at this point I have begun to feel as if this thread is little more than an internet platform for the dissemination of 'The Gospel According to Samael', and I am growing very weary of it, so we'll see....!
Doc
-
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Philip,
Great post. It is really interesting for me to read your posts as you obviously have a great deal of insight into the real meaning of many of the biblical texts. I have often studied these texts using the traditional Christian interpretations and explanations but have so often found them to be woefully lacking as I am sure so many others have.
I was wondering, what does it mean to be born again? You touched on this before, but I couldn't get it? Does it relate to the awakening of the Kundalini energy, and to the opening of the chakras? And what does it mean for the "seven days of creation" to be already done in a person? Does this also relate to the seven chakras, or the seven human bodies, or the seven realms of consciousness?
Christi
Christianity talks about "being born again" (second birth) and the "second death." The first birth is the birth of the body. The second birth is the process of the complete development of the human soul. What we have within is a seed of a soul, the "Essence," mustard seed. But this essence-soul needs to develop into a true human soul. So, Jesus had many parables about the seed, because we are seeds. He also states, "in your patience you will possess your soul," which means that we really don't currently have a soul. In John 3 Jesus speaks about being born again. Jesus is amazed here, because Nicodemus, a Pharisee and thus a man who knew the Kabbalah, did not grasp the meaning of what Jesus was saying.
Being born again is a general term of spiritual development that only comes through sexual transmutation. Developing the solar bodies is part of that, developing all 7 brass serpents (kundalini) within the 7 bodies is a part of that, opening the chakras (the crown chakra, btw, is the halo depicted on saints, also the tongues of fire in Acts) is related with that. The seven days of genesis are a way to describe that process.
Basically, nothing returns to heaven except that which came from heaven. The semen, the sperm, the egg, the "sexual eneregy" come directly from God. The akasha (ether) comes from the Mulaprakriti. The tattvas come from the akasha, in four types: tejas, vayu, apas, and prithvi. These then transform into fire, aire, water, and earth. But chakras take in the tattvas and then pass into the interior of the glands of the internal secretion. When the tattvas are inside these minute endocrine laboratories (the glands), they then transform into hormones. These tattvas also transform into genes and chromosomes that later transform into sperm or egg. Everything comes from the Ether. So, what is necessary is to take these root substances and transform them in order to build vehicles of a nature that handle ever increasingly subtle forms of God. This is how we are literally born again of the spirit.
There is another story about a Wedding were a person showed up without be dressed correctly. The King bound him hand and foot and threw him out, where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth." This, Jesus states, is what Heaven is like. We have to be properly dressed for Heaven, because the filth that we are could never "live" there. And if we do not make it to heaven, then we will go to hell, because we have to pay for what we owe, even if we don't want to. It is like a child that you discipline in order to teach him/her how to live better. A parent doesn't (shouldn't at least) ever be angry when he or she disciplines their child. They do it out of LOVE, in order to TEACH the child how to live correctly. Hell is compassion for those souls who refused to "clean" themselves of sin. Although they are there for eternity, that is another word that has caused confusion. Eternity is a cycle of events that eventually ends. It is AN eternity. The Law is the Law, and it will be fulfilled, but no more or less. Once the debt is paid, the punishment ends, because it serves no purpose. There is no purpose in making people suffer forever.
The Seven Days of Genesis describe the work necessary to achieve the Crown of Life, which is Christ: Kether-Chokmah-Binah. The first Five Days correspond to the development of the human soul, the first Five Initiations of Greater Mysteries that the Theosophists like to talk about so much. The Sixth Day corresponds to the incarnation of the Spiritual Soul, this is when the Master is born on Earth (the Master is born in the Heaven first... thus there is the two men; Natural (Terrestrial) Man and the Heavenly Man (the inner Master or Guru)). The Seventh Day is the Straight Path that we spoke about in one of the earlier posts. This last day itself is represented by the 12 works of Hercules, or the 13 Repentances of Pistis Sophia.
That is a basic outline, much can be said about all this things.
-
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfgang
quote:
Originally posted by Philip
In the esotericism I study, fornication means the orgasm in any form whatsoever. It doesn't matter if you are married. It is much better to fornicate with a spouse, but nevertheless this is still fornication.
Hi Philip,
you keep posting quotes, and here you state that you are studying
esotericism and you keep stating things of which I am not
sure whether you completely identify with that teaching or if
you are just advertising that teaching.
So, I would be very glad if you could explain your own view
about orgasm.
Can orgasm in your viewpoint be an experienc of the divine ?
Any orgasm (with or without ejaculation) or no orgasm at all ?
Looking forward to your response
Yes, all of these things are my personal explanations concerning these topics, of course my understanding is based on the doctrine of Samael Aun Weor.
In my viewpoint, the orgasm is a filthy ("unclean") act that eventually transforms an innocent but awakened humanity into perverse, complicated, lustful, sarcastic, envious, hateful, ignorant, sleeping masses that suffer daily but do not even know it. And I will give you proof, if you want it. Simply go up to any person and ask if they suffer. The vast majority will say "no" with confidence. Then, begin to call them names, make fun of them, tell them that they are ignorant, perverse, hate filled, envious, proud, that they are fornicators and liars. Every one of them at this point will feel at least one the seven deadly sins because those sins live within them, even if they really, really, believe in God. Just observe people. They say they don't suffer, yet just watch them, observe them. Ten minutes later they are complaining (my boss is a tyrant, i don't get paid enough, people don't appreciate me), gossiping, yelling, they are afraid (about money, about test scores, about what people think, what do I do in life?), they are proud (of my wonderful family, of my beliefs, of my car, my job, my social status that gives me the power for this or that), they are making a joke at someone else's expense, etc., etc., etc., etc. And how do many escape? Through greed and lust, things that make them sleep even more: tv, movies, games, "hobbies", drinking, which only makes them suffer more.
We suffer and do not even comprehend that we suffer. We do not even know how to return evil with goodness. We can not even love our enemies. This is not normal. This is a shame, this humanity is a massive failure, which is why Jesus is actually very clear that few people will ever see Heaven. He states that with outstanding authority. When someone says, "You are great" we feel pride, and that is suffering. When someone says, "You are bad" we feel shame, or anger, or resentment, and that is suffering. The real man is not a slave to the world. The real man is happy unconditionally!
Fornication comes from the same word as furnace. Fornication is the creation of "fire" which burns in the furnace. Hell is full of fire. The orgasm is like pouring fuel on fire, even though it is intensely pleasurable to the biological organism. It's just dopamine. Someone who takes heroin or opium feels very similar to the person experiencing the orgasm. The true erotic agape is not the orgasm, it is the love between man and woman that is beyond lust, yet it is sexual. The orgasm as a mystical experience is a fleeting desire that has nothing to do with the ecstatic states achieved through white tantrism. Using the orgasm as a tool to awaken the consciousness works, yet it awakens the consciousness in DESIRE. This is how someone becomes a demon. No demon thinks he is a demon. The awakening of the consciousness properly performed occurs through the elimination of desire combined with sexual transmutation.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. - Daniel 12:2
The point sexual of transmutation is to not waste the ENERGY. Meaning no orgasm, ejaculation, no LUST, no DESIRE. Lustful thought is fornication because one uses the subtle currents of the sexual energy to waste it on desire-will. Lust is an action that has consequences. This is why if you even THINK about sex in the wrong way, you have already fornicated.
The Sixth Commandment, properly stated, is: Thou Shalt Not Fornicate. The person who completes this commandment perfectly on all the levels of the mind, of the emotion, and the body has already incarnated Christ. This is how difficult it is. Those who fail at this become a triple failure of 6: six in the mind, six in the emotion, and six in the action: 666. This is the number of the Anti-Christ, which has the power of ubiquity because it lives everywhere, in everyone. Instead of manifesting christ, one manifest satan (ego), which is the son of fornication.
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quote:
There is so much variance in the quoted teachings and writings of Samael Aun Weor from Traditional Jewish and Christian Theology that I can hardly decide what to address first. [:0]
Well, you don't have to address any of them for me. I don't mind. [:)] I understand that is growing old for you, but I don't mind. I will continue to speak until no one wants to talk any more. No one is forced to respond to anything I say.
quote:
It was NEVER used in reference to marital sexual intercourse, and still shouldn't be used in this way. Check your dictionary! [;)]
It does not matter if the people who wrote the dictionary did not know that there is an exoteric doctrine for the people (get married) and an esoteric doctrine (but don't reach orgasm) that is only taught to the people in secrecy. So what I am saying here is the esoteric viewpoint as I understand it.
quote:
The Personal Divine Name with which God identified Himself to Moses on Mt. Horeb is 'Yahweh', Hebrew for 'I AM THAT I AM'. Over time, the Hebrews came to consider this Personal Name of God too sacred to speak casually, and even disrespectful to utter aside from the Solemn Liturgical Rites and Ceremonies of the Temple in Jerusalem. As a result, the more general term for 'God'...'Elohim'...was substituted instead for home prayer devotions and synagogue use.
The name of God that Moshe (Moses) was given was "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" (#1488;#1492;#1497;#1492; #1488;#1513;#1512; #1488;#1492;#1497;#1492;) not IHVE. IHVE, while many think should be Yahweh, is really Jehovah, which I know is bad transliteration, but if you do not like that then just say IOD-HEVA, but not Yahweh, because Yahweh is a demon. "Yahweh" as the real way to pronounce God is one the tricks that some jealous rabbis use in order to confuse the gentiles. Sad, but true (this in no way should be taken as a stab at a religion, only that members of all regions have faults). IHVE is IOD, HE, Vav, He, which esoterically means: Phallus, Uterus, Fire, Water. This of course makes sense because Jehovah is a creator god. Moshe in Hebrew means "born of the fire and water:" MEM is Water, SHIN is Fire, He is WOMB.
quote:
The Ancient Hebrew term for the Spirit of God is 'Ruach ha-Kodesh', the 'Spirit of Holiness' or the 'Holy Spirit'. The earliest Jewish born Christians borrowed this traditional Hebrew term to directly and accurately refer to the Third Person of the Holy Trinity...the 'Holy Spirit'.
Ruach ha-Kadosh means Holy Spirit, but Spirit of God is Ruach Elohim. There is no confusion there!
quote:
Perhaps I'll address other points in your posts later, but at this point I have begun to feel as if this thread is little more than an internet platform for the dissemination of 'The Gospel According to Samael', and I am growing very weary of it, so we'll see....!
Perhaps that is the case, but it only because people keep talking to me! You can stop whenever whenever you want!
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Hey Philip, you haven't answered my question: presuming the writers of these old scrolls had the meaning you intended for "fornicate", namely "have an orgasm", why didn't they say "have an orgasm?".
And please, please, please don't give me that catch-it-all old line "the people weren't ready to hear it" because people were hearing much more shocking and strange stuff at those times.
And I don't want something like "people needed exoteric teachings also", because if you want to teach the people (i) not to fornicate and (ii) not to have orgasms, you simply teach the people (i) not to fornicate and (ii) not to have orgasms. There was room on the scroll for both, and you could always leave out some of the bulls-blood stuff in a pinch, if the scribe was getting cranky.
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quote:
Philip said:
quote:
david_obsidian said:
So yes, one asks for proof. One is a fool not to.
There is plenty of proof to your awakened consciousness. Yet, the sleeping consciousness does not know its ass from its elbow, and this why there is so much confusion and suffering in this world. Yes, it is necessary to awaken to have proof, real objective proof. And, any individual who goes to bed at night and remains unconscious for the next eight hours, and even worse doesn't even remember his dreams (unconscious activity), sleeps profoundly. Anyone who cannot remember their past day in its total and complete entirety, down to each minute detail, is living with their consciousness sleeping. That is why this whole humanity is the living dead, and rightly so: "let the dead bury the dead," let them do what they want.
Pride is the overestimation of one's self worth and self knowledge. David, if what I stated regarding sleep fits you, then in reality, what you do have is an atom of data, a couple words, and with that you are building a monument based upon your theories, which, according to my own experience, have no bearing on truth.
Philip, I've had time to go back and look at one of your earlier replies to me. It's nothing other than intimidation, a cultic technique:
Philip said:
Anyone who cannot remember their past day in its total and complete entirety, down to each minute detail, is living with their consciousness sleeping. ...David, if what I stated regarding sleep fits you, then in reality, what you do have is an atom of data, a couple words, and with that you are building a monument based upon your theories....
It's crafted to make the reader lose faith in himself. And to contrast himself with the purported state of the cultic authority. I'm supposed to read that and think "holy sh1t, if I had an awakened consciousness, I'd be believing all this Samael Aun Weor stuff!". And so I'm supposed to be cowed away from making further challenges.
Philip, regarding your cultic intimidation, as you can imagine I'm quaking in my boots here.
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Philip:
Given the fact that Victor Rodriguez/Samael Weor admitted to being completely self-educated in these areas of study, it is obvious that he based his writings and teachings on his own independent assumptions and conclusions, like you have, without any awareness of or concern about the many historical inaccuracies and eccentric theological misinterpretations that are so overtly evident in his work. [:0]
After reading his views, identifying the core values they express, and contemplating his photographs, I believe that he was a tormented soul who became an inflated legend in his own mind, suffering greatly for his delusional teachings while he was alive, and perhaps even thereafter. Only God knows with certainty.
In any event, your posts, whether quotations of his written works or expressions of your own opinions, from my perspective, appear to be a tremendously confused conglomeration of misguided fiction presented as illuminated truth, which I find impossible to take seriously. [V]
Since you show little or no respect for any religious beliefs or personal opinions that differ from those of Mr. Rodriguez and yourself, it is equally impossible to engage you in a meaningful dialogue of any kind. [:(] As a result, this thread often amounts to a one-way discussion in which your perpetual insistence on merely preaching the 'truth' of Mr. Rodriguez's quasi-gnostic interpretations, as your sole source of reference, has become untenable for me. Perhaps this is also the case for others here who find very little Spiritual Inspiration, Divine Love, or Holy Wisdom and Universal Truth in his or your teachings. Your posts remind me of the 'Paid Political Announcements' on television prior to an election. A cure for insomnia. Wake me when it's over, OK? [|)]
I will therefore probably accept your gracious invitation to not post any future replies to your outrageous posts, as I believe that they are intended in great part to deliberately shock and offend others, probably for the sake of whatever pleasure is derived from doing so. However, I shall gladly continue to pray for both you and the late Mr. Rodriguez nonetheless! [:p]
Light and Love to All ~
Doc
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Hi Philip,
Thanks for your reply about being born again. I can see it is a compicated process. Can I ask you a detailed question about this? As I see it, once the kundalini energy is awakened, it needs to rise from the root chakra to the crown chakra in all of the first 5 bodies (as the kundalini never decended in the Atmic kosha or the Buddhic Kosha). Once this process is complete, our evolution is complete and we are born again in Christ. My first question is "have I got this right?", and my second question is, "does the rise of the kundalini need to complete it's ascent to the Crown chakra in one body before it can begin to rise in the next highest body, or can it rise in all 5 bodies at the same time?"
Christi
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What I find interesting in Philip's interpretations of the Christian scriptures is that they are not in conflict with AYP tantra. While the mainstream interpretations are leading hundreds of millions of people to nowhere..
What are your views on tantra Doc? Ie. using sex for cultivation of spiritual energy?
And david, you practice AYP tantra don't you? What are the differences between Yogani's teaching on tantra and Philip's posts about withholding orgasm? Are you attacking Philip's posts just because you have already rejected the bible based on a literal interpretation and its too hard for you to consider that you might have been wrong?
Philip, is that the King James version of the bible you are quoting? I just used the first quotes I found off google search to generally show that the bible condemns homosexuality. I don't really prefer any version because I reckon that the overall meaning is more or less the same. But any reason you prefer that version, is it more accurate? How about you Doc, which version of the bible do you consider the most authentic?
quote:
Originally posted by Doc
However, I shall gladly continue to pray for both you and the late Mr. Rodriguez nonetheless! [:p]
Don't bother. The reward for such prayer is now nil. It would have been genuine if you had kept it secret, for our Father to see in secret and reward you openly.
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quote:
It's crafted to make the reader lose faith in himself. And to contrast himself with the purported state of the cultic authority. I'm supposed to read that and think "holy sh1t, if I had an awakened consciousness, I'd be believing all this Samael Aun Weor stuff!". And so I'm supposed to be cowed away from making further challenges.
Philip, regarding your cultic intimidation, as you can imagine I'm quaking in my boots here.
David, regarding your theories: I don't care. Your business is your business and it is not my concern.
Remember: you are responsible for what you say I said.
quote:
Hey Philip, you haven't answered my question: presuming the writers of these old scrolls had the meaning you intended for "fornicate", namely "have an orgasm", why didn't they say "have an orgasm?".
And please, please, please don't give me that catch-it-all old line "the people weren't ready to hear it" because people were hearing much more shocking and strange stuff at those times.
And I don't want something like "people needed exoteric teachings also", because if you want to teach the people (i) not to fornicate and (ii) not to have orgasms, you simply teach the people (i) not to fornicate and (ii) not to have orgasms. There was room on the scroll for both, and you could always leave out some of the bulls-blood stuff in a pinch, if the scribe was getting cranky.
I cannot fulfill your requests David, because I already said all that. Perhaps you did not read my previous posts?
The narratives of the Doctrine are its cloak. The simple look only at the garment - that is, upon the narrative of the Doctrine; more they know not. The instructed, however, see not merely the cloak, but what the cloak covers. - The Zohar, iii.
The Mysteries of the Faith (are) not to be divulged to all ... It is requisite to hide in a mystery the wisdom spoken. - St. Clement of Alexandra, Stromateis
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Chiron:
I believe that great benefits can most certainly be obtained from correct study and training in Tantra Yoga methods. Such practices, however, like any other method, are not a 'one size fits all' answer for everyone. Tantric practice presents its own unique challenges and potential pitfalls to every practitioner, due to the use of sexual energy for spiritual transformation, and is probably often misunderstood and misused as a result.
Insofar as translations of the Bible are concerned, I own virtually every translation ever printed, and find it useful to compare the same passages of Scripture in different translations in order to get a better feel for the core meaning. Sometimes, the wording of a verse in one translation is more understandable to me than the same verse in another translation, and just seems to resonate more comfortably in my heart and mind.
The Revised Standard Version Bible (RSV) is the only translation to receive official approval and support from all of the major Christian church associations and denominations, as its translation work was undertaken by an ecumenical team of scholars and linguists, not just one church affiliation only. The RSV is generally my first point of reference, followed by comparision with other translations such as the New Scofield Reference Bible, the Jerusalem Bible, the New English Bible, the Greek Septuagint, and the Lamsa Aramaic Bible.
Lastly, Chiron, it is not for you to decide whether anyone's prayers are efficacious or not. Only God can decide whose prayers are heard and answered! [;)]
Doc
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Philip said:
I cannot fulfill your requests David, because I already said all that. Perhaps you did not read my previous posts?
Within the world of the mumbo-jumbo which you are presenting us here, you have answered my rational question with further mumbo-jumbo. That I will grant you. But my rational question remains unanswered as a rational question.
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Chiron said:
Are you attacking Philip's posts just because you have already rejected the bible based on a literal interpretation and its too hard for you to consider that you might have been wrong?
Chiron, I neither reject nor accept the Bible, which I see as a list of books which different guys wrote (no disrespect to Christians -- I see the Buddhist and every other scriptures in the same way) in which a mix of wisdom, unwisdom, and once-was-but-no-longer-is wisdom can be found. The mistakes in Philip's posts are systematic, being derived from a large self-consistent system which is based on a made-up reality with some truths in it.
What are the differences between Yogani's teaching on tantra and Philip's posts about withholding orgasm?
That's the best part of your question, and one most worth answering. In AYP Tantra, the view of the orgasm is balanced and accurate: one suffers only an energy loss in orgasm, and a path is presented whereby one can minimize the energy loss of orgasm, and cultivate the sexual energy accordingly. Philip's position is extremist in opposition to the orgasm. The orgasm is the demon. Consistent with demonizing the orgasm, the orgasm must be (erroneously, through simplification) presented as not needed for procreation. The truth is that some men 'leak' sperm before orgasm, some men do not. (BTW, this is why coitus interruptus works well as a contraception for many, but works badly for others.) The ones who leak do not need orgasm to reproduce. Samael was probably a 'leaker', and, based on his own experience (which was enough for him -- who needs research or to ask a few questions if you are the Angel Regent of Mars?) what he presents as The Spiritual Reality is merely the reality of leakers.
The orgasm is "filthy" and "unclean" to Philip, and presumably also to Samael Aun Wenor. The very phraseology is accusatory. To have sex with orgasm is to "fornicate". The "filthy" orgasm is built up to be almost the cause of everything which is bad, in a humanity which seems to be viewed with inadequate kindness and respect:
quote:
Philip said: (my underlines)
Yes, all of these things are my personal explanations concerning these topics, of course my understanding is based on the doctrine of Samael Aun Weor.
In my viewpoint, the orgasm is a filthy ("unclean") act that eventually transforms an innocent but awakened humanity into perverse, complicated, lustful, sarcastic, envious, hateful, ignorant, sleeping masses that suffer daily but do not even know it. And I will give you proof, if you want it. Simply go up to any person and ask if they suffer. The vast majority will say "no" with confidence. Then, begin to call them names, make fun of them, tell them that they are ignorant, perverse, hate filled, envious, proud, that they are fornicators and liars. Every one of them at this point will feel at least one the seven deadly sins because those sins live within them, even if they really, really, believe in God. Just observe people. They say they don't suffer, yet just watch them, observe them. Ten minutes later they are complaining (my boss is a tyrant, i don't get paid enough, people don't appreciate me), gossiping, yelling, they are afraid (about money, about test scores, about what people think, what do I do in life?), they are proud (of my wonderful family, of my beliefs, of my car, my job, my social status that gives me the power for this or that), they are making a joke at someone else's expense, etc., etc., etc., etc. And how do many escape? Through greed and lust, things that make them sleep even more: tv, movies, games, "hobbies", drinking, which only makes them suffer more.
AYP does not have that kind of approach to orgasm, which screams of imbalance. You will not find human beings described by Yogani as Philip/(Samael?) has described them above. The experiment suggested by Philip in order to find if people 'suffer' is odious (even if it is not meant to be literally carried out). You will not find such writing in Yogani's works ever. The whole 'vibration' of it screams of imbalance.
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Hi David,
quote:
Reference to an earlier post by David Obsidian which has been removed.
Do you realize that all that you said here could equally well fit a description of Jesus Christ? As far as messianic complexes go, stuff like
"My Father and I are One", Or
"Noone shall attain to my Father save through me",
are really up there. I don't think anyone before or since has ever said that they are effectively God, and that they are personally the only path to knowing God for every spiritual practitioner everywhere. He makes every other conspiracy theorist with a messianic aggrandisement complex look sane.
And everything else applies equally well to Jesus Christ: the victimization issues (like I must die for the suffering of the world), the lack of any logic, facts, reason, scholarship or history. The fact that his statements fit his own bizzar logic and often nothing else, and all the rest.[:0] Incidentally, in all the images I have seen of Jesus Christ, he looks terrible. Really terrible. I don't think I have ever seen anyone look so bad. Seen "The Passion of The Christ" recently? He looks bad.
Do you see now why Yogani said that we should refrain from making derogatory remarks about other spiritual teachers, or bashing other spiritual traditions? Because if we do not refrain then it just degenerates into this kind of nonsense. A pointless mud slinging fiasco, where noone gains anything, and the huge potential of benefitting from what is a very advanced spiritual knowledge is lost.
I think it is time that we paid some attention to what Yogani has asked us to do. It is time that we all stop persecuting Philip for his beliefs, and time we stopped tearing his spiritual teachers to shreds.
If I wanted to I could do it to any spiritual teacher in the world. Any.
It is no excuse to say that we did not know that someone was a spiritual teacher. Ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law.
It is a pointless and damaging exercise. If you do not like the way someone understands their spiritual path, then let them be. He is not harming you.
Some of us are very interested in Christian Gnosticism, and of understanding the real teachings of Christ, just as we are interested in Orthodox Christianity and understanding the real teachings of Christ. The two are complimentary. Personally I have met Jesus Christ in the higher astral worlds. It may be a magical mystery tour to you, but it is very real for me. Incidentally I can tell you it is Very magical, and Very mystical.
So why not let people who understand it, and feel they can benefit from it, dicuss it, rather than putting so much energy into undermining someone elses cosmology?
Christi
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Christi said:
Do you realize that all that you said here could equally well fit a description of Jesus Christ? As far as messianic complexes go, stuff like "My Father and I are One", Or "Noone shall attain to my Father save through me",
Yes, Christi, on the face of it, that is true. But let me explain a few things.
Firstly, I am not a Christian, and I have no position on 'Jesus Christ' at all. From my perspective, those scriptures are so old, and everything so unverifiable, that I don't know how much or how little the, shall we say, Christian-Jesus matches the (usually presumed real) person, Jesus of Nazareth.
Anything I say about Jesus of Nazareth is purely speculative. I am not invested, but even if well-meaning, what I say (even as speculation) could be very offensive to people who are invested. I mean no offense, and I have to be understood as being purely speculative: speculating on Jesus Christ is an intellectual thought-experiment to me only. So, for example, I could speculate that there was a 'Jesus of Nazareth' who got a messiah complex. Or, I could speculate that there was a gifted spiritual teacher, Jesus of Nazareth, who didn't get a messiah complex, but a record was written that made him look as if he had one. Or, alternatively, he was a wise leader who at some point spun (maybe temproarily) into a messiah complex and a record was consequently written.
There is a little more to be said about this. In the setting in which Jesus lived, if you had an enlightenment experience, it was much more inevitable that you became sacro-mythically inflated as a result than it is now. Because the society in which he lived know so little -- or nothing -- about enlightenment, but had very strong Messiah myths. So, suppose you have a strong enlightenment experience in a place like that. How do you interpret it? It's much easier to spin into a state of inflation than it is in a culture in which enlightenment is understood better. He would have been in a worse position not to spin into a state of inflation than would, say, someone living in India even at that time. And in a MUCH WORSE position than someone living in the Information Age today.
So if Jesus was sacro-mythically inflated, I see it as very much less a criticism of him than it would be for someone who would get sacro-mythically inflated today. Just like it is much more acceptable to be highly superstitious in those times than today. If I had a powerful enlightenment experience in his setting would I have thought I was the Messiah? Almost certainly.
With someone like Samael Aun Weor, two things are very different. Firstly, the record is MUCH more clear. I do know that I am talking about a real person, and I do know exactly what that person said, from looking at their works. Secondly, a man such as that lived in the 20th century and has some responsibilities to be a better product of his time. As I said, a 20th-century person who is willing to express (or cultivate) such extreme notions of himself needs to answer some 20th-century questions.
Christi said:
It is a pointless and damaging exercise. If you do not like the way someone understands their spiritual path, then let them be.
There are two major issues here: one is about AYP forum, and what is on-topic here. That is a point-of-order, and on it you may be right -- but I find it hard, very hard, to know where the border lies between 'bashing' a 'spiritual teacher' and pointing out systematic deficits in someone's teachings which are being pushed in postings by a forum member. I do think the messiah complex is relevant to the deficits of the teachings -- very relevant in this case, because it explains why he had so little need of verification of his grand theories, and why self-consistency was an adequate form of verification for him. And where is the border between spiritual teacher and not? If Van Daniken's theories of flying saucers and aliens come up, can I question them? Also I believe you have your own biases which apply a sort of 'presumption of innocence' to a poster like Philip. I see Philip do things that you might not see (like cultic intimidation). I see someone speaking from dubious sources to possibly-gullible masses. I can see that his teachings come from a person who calls homosexuals 'bad seeds' in a book called "There is a Hell, a Devil and Karma" which I find extremely questionable -- not just in the purported facts, but the manner of their presentation. I see someone preaching a lot and, maybe, someone trying to use an AYP topic as a platform to promote his group.
Leaving the question of AYP-appropriateness aside (for which my posts may be borderline) on the broader philosiphical question I feel very confident that society needs to know about sacro-mythical inflation, cultic leadership, and understand the various and many movements who have it and why it is almost always destructive at some level. The truth is that people learn by example. So I don't think I am doing anything pointless or damaging at all, though it might be out of place here. Or, more likely, what I have written may be just too strong.
Fair enough, I'll change my approach -- provided Philip doesn't say anything too provocative now, I'll stay out of here, or come in much more mildly from now on.
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P.S.
Christi said:
If I wanted to I could do it to any spiritual teacher in the world. Any.
Ramana Maharshi? Adyashanti? Gopi Krishna? I don't think so. And Buddha, I don't think so either. ( Some of his teaching about himself seems hyperbolic in this age, but I'm not sure inflation was the basis of it. )
Sacro-mythical inflation is common among spiritual teachers but not general.
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Hello Christi!
I think a major point that some people are missing here is simply that Philip deliberately draws criticism of his posts as a result of his unabashed and dogmatic prosyletizing. I personally support everyone's right to believe what they wish to. I also support everyone's right to openly express their beliefs as well, provided that the personal opinions so expressed are presented non-dogmatically.
However, I think it's inappropriate for anyone, whether it be Philip or anyone else, to dogmatically express their beliefs, opinions, and personal interpretations regarding any topic by saying THIS WAY IS THE ONLY WAY...THE ONLY TRUE BELIEF...THE ONLY CORRECT OPINION...THE ONLY AUTHENTIC INTERPRETATION of the subject matter!
There is no 'One Size Fits All' religion, theology, spiritual philosophy, or method which is likely to be openly embraced by everyone across the boards....not mine, not yours, and not Philip's! Different kinds of people resonate to different kinds of spirituality. We are all led by Spirit according to God's Call and Plan for us. So, if someone wishes to march to the beat of a far distant drummer than I do, more power to them, and with God's Blessings to All on your respective Paths.
Hari OM!
Doc
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Ramana Maharshi? Adyashanti? Gopi Krishna? Buddha? Who are they and what have they done for the world? I see billions of people going hungry. But they don't do much about it. All they do is talk and some of them don't even care about this planet anymore. Buddha, out of his selfishness, has left for nirvana. He no longer cares about anyone's suffering.
Its easy, I can keep going, and it won't do me any good.
Don't worry about protecting the 'innocent masses' from 'cults' david, that's what the pharisees and the priests were doing 2000 years ago.
And remember, what you see in others, is what is in yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc
I believe that great benefits can most certainly be obtained from correct study and training in Tantra Yoga methods. Such practices, however, like any other method, are not a 'one size fits all' answer for everyone. Tantric practice presents its own unique challenges and potential pitfalls to every practitioner, due to the use of sexual energy for spiritual transformation, and is probably often misunderstood and misused as a result.
Nobody said that tantra is a 'one size fits all' answer. But the tantric teachings are missing from mainstream Christian interpretations. This is a very sad reality, which undoubtably leads to the degradation of many people. Yet have you spoken out about it as loudly as you have spoken against Philip's posts here?
quote:
Originally posted by Doc
Lastly, Chiron, it is not for you to decide whether anyone's prayers are efficacious or not. Only God can decide whose prayers are heard and answered! [;)]Doc
True, it is not up to me, but you already got your reward by declaring it publicly to stroke your ego -- as if anyone but yourself needs the prayer.
Btw, all prayers are heard and answered, before they even happen.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc
However, I think it's inappropriate for anyone, whether it be Philip or anyone else, to dogmatically express their beliefs, opinions, and personal interpretations regarding any topic by saying THIS WAY IS THE ONLY WAY...THE ONLY TRUE BELIEF...THE ONLY CORRECT OPINION...THE ONLY AUTHENTIC INTERPRETATION of the subject matter!
Where did Philip say any of that?
quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
AYP does not have that kind of approach to orgasm, which screams of imbalance. You will not find human beings described by Yogani as Philip/(Samael?) has described them above. The experiment suggested by Philip in order to find if people 'suffer' is odious (even if it is not meant to be literally carried out). You will not find such writing in Yogani's works ever. The whole 'vibration' of it screams of imbalance.
Yes Yogani presents his teachings in a very balanced way, without aggression. While Samael presents it in an aggressive and straightforward fashion which is likely to not attract as many seekers. But still, IMO the main points of the teaching (eg. withholding orgasm) are much more important than the way they are presented. It is better to have an aggressive teaching available than to have no teaching available at all. We're lucky we have AYP to fall back upon.. but that was not the case five years ago.
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quote:
Its easy, I can keep going, and it won't do me any good.
I tried to send you an email, Chiron, but it wouldn't go through. I don't like putting anyone on the spot... But sometimes talking about it helps...
[My email is listed in my profile].
VIL
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Chiron wrote:
"Ramana Maharshi? Adyashanti? Gopi Krishna? Buddha? Who are they and what have they done for the world? I see billions of people going hungry. But they don't do much about it."
While I agree with other things you said, I don't agree with this part. Just because other people are not implementing what we see to be the cures for people doesn't mean they haven't done anything or may not care. It's possible that as we become more enlightened we will see what they have done, and perhaps what we thought were solutions could be seen as futile. There are some who believe that we can only change ourselves, not others. Then there are others who believe if we could take all the money from the rich and give it to the poor it would save all the world's problems. Others believe if only they could rule over people, they could turn the world into a utopia. . .
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^ I don't agree with that part either, but that's beside the point :) The email address I used in my profile has expired.. I have got a new one now VIL.
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Christi said:
Do you see now why Yogani said that we should refrain from making derogatory remarks about other spiritual teachers
Christi, fair cop: I've pulled out that direct stuff I said about Samael Aun Weor above, just to be compliant with forum policy, because it crosses a line. It remains however in your quoted reply to me: you can edit it out if you wish, and therefore and you can decide whether or not it remains here to be read.
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Philip,
Thanks for your reply about being born again. I can see it is a compicated process. Can I ask you a detailed question about this? As I see it, once the kundalini energy is awakened, it needs to rise from the root chakra to the crown chakra in all of the first 5 bodies (as the kundalini never decended in the Atmic kosha or the Buddhic Kosha). Once this process is complete, our evolution is complete and we are born again in Christ. My first question is "have I got this right?", and my second question is, "does the rise of the kundalini need to complete it's ascent to the Crown chakra in one body before it can begin to rise in the next highest body, or can it rise in all 5 bodies at the same time?"
Christi
Well, the kundalini reaches the crown, but then descends down to the heart. One rises, and then the next. Not simultaneously. And once all seven are raised (in the fire), one ether rests in Nirvana (one is born in heaven), or enters into the Straight Path which means you have to raise all the serpents again, but now on a higher octave (in the light). This is much more difficult, but only for these individuals is Christ incarnated. Even then, there are still levels and degrees. The different degrees are represented by "horns" or "tridents," like the horns on Michelangelo's Moses.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Michelangelo%27s+Moses
quote:
Philip, is that the King James version of the bible you are quoting?
I usually think King James is just fine. I stay away from new versions, especially ones that use Yahweh instead of Jehovah. Sometimes I like Young's Literal Translation in order to get a little closer to exact wording. When I really want to I'll look it up in the original language.
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Chiron:
The Traditional Eastern Christian guidelines and teachings regarding sexuality are more akin to those of Brahmacharya than Tantra, IMO. They are intended to help people experience their sexuality as a Sacred Gift from God, in a morally and ethically responsible way.
Those who are unmarried are taught to be modestly reserved in presenting themselves physically, and to sublimate the sex drive and its physical expression of sexual energy through chaste abstinence. Maintaining purity of thoughts, words, and actions is taught, in order to maintain the body as a Sacred Temple of the Lord, turning the thoughts towards a relationship with the Lord and Union with God.
Married adults are encouraged to conserve sexual energy through moderation of sexual activity with their spouses, and to dedicate this powerful energy to the Glory of God, thereby transforming it as a means of elevating the Soul ever closer to Union with God.
Specific mental and physical techniques are taught to assist both the unmarried and the married, so that body, mind, and spirit may remain as pure as possible regarding appropriate and beneficial sexual expression.
The most stringent practitioners of these guidelines and methods of sex sublimation and energy transformation for spiritual advancement are clearly monastics, within both Eastern and Western Christianity, since they make a solemn vow of Chastity upon entering the monastic life.
Lastly, I need all the prayers I can get, and will gratefully accept any prayers anyone may wish to offer on my behalf. Can I count on you to pray for me, Chiron? [;)]
Doc
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Pfeww, what a brew, this mix up of minds. But Philip, I love you dearly for giving me precisely what I needed to know. I dont think you need to worry about some other minds not getting what you are saying. To each their own path and Forum:-))
Ciao!
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"Specific mental and physical techniques are taught to assist both the unmarried and the married" - Doc
Can you tell us what those are? Do you have any internet links to such Christian teachings? Are there techniques for withholding orgasm?
In this day and age it is almost impossible to remain celibate with all the forces of desire attacking from all sides. At least that is how I found it. Now it is much easier but only after I have used the techniques as taught here at AYP. And.. I must say the Gnostic teachings have given me a good shake up and have made me even more serious regarding this issue.. now is that a bad thing?
As for the prayer, I'm still learning, but I'll try my best. One thing for sure, you will enter MahaNirvana before I do :)
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quote:
Originally posted by Chiron
"Specific mental and physical techniques are taught to assist both the unmarried and the married" - Doc
Can you tell us what those are? Maybe...maybe not.
Do you have any internet links to such Christian teachings? No. Links.
Are there techniques for withholding orgasm? Yes.
As for the prayer, I'm still learning, but I'll try my best. One thing for sure, you will enter MahaNirvana before I do :)
Hello Chiron:
As for prayer, I'm still learning, too! [:)] Thanks for trying your best. [8D] And in the event that I should arrive anywhere that we'd both really want to be spiritually before you do, I'll put your name on the Pass List and Save a Seat for you. [;)] I hope you'd do the same for me, man! [:D]
Hari OM!
Doc
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Maybe...maybe not? Well at least the Gnostics are openly sharing their teachings. So how can I know if what you said is actually true and those Christian teachings regarding sexuality actually exist? Obviously they are not publicly available if they are not even published on the internet. What use is that for us here? And what use is there in bashing gnostics in favour of those teachings which we have no access to? And why were you defending the interpretations of the mainstream churches which do not provide such knowledge?
If there are techniques for withholding orgasm taught by the Christian tradition you speak of then why not openly share them here so we can compare it to AYP and Gnosticism?
(Btw, Tantra is Brahmacharya, only an accelerated version.)
Philip, while we are on this issue, can you please tell us if Samael Aun Weor taught any specific mental or physical techniques to assist in withholding orgasm during the sexual act?
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Chiron:
Chill out, man! I was only playing with you a bit. Sheeesh! [:p]
I guess you can't really know if the methods I eluded to actually exist or not, can you? And they aren't intended for public consumption anyway. Simply stated, the Esoteric Eastern Orthodox Christian Teachings and Techniques use specifically Eastern Orthodox theological and liturgical terminology and scriptural symbolism, as well as Eastern Christian contemplative prayer and meditation practices as frequent points of reference. This material would be totally unfamiliar and alien to non-Orthodox readers who don't have the spiritual foundation of a formal Orthodox religious education. Such a foundation would be needed in order to relate to the points of reference presented. These factors, combined with your openly anti-Christian, anti-Orthodox feelings, disqualify you from receiving what you are asking for in any event. [:(]
Given your attitude and personal perspective, you wouldn't resonate with whatever I might present, and would seek only to find fault with it. All things considered, I think you'd be more in tune with Philip's Magical Mystery Tour Teachings. He may well be 'da man wit da plan' for you, Bubba, since "Bird's of a feather flock together" and "Like attracts like". [:D]
I acknowledge that Philip has made a number of good points thus far on several subjects in this thread, and has shared some authentically legitimate, historically validated information gleaned from a variety of different schools and traditions. However, these are mixed together with alot of very eccentric ideas which find little or no supporting authentication and validation in other schools and traditions. They are the sole creations of Victor Rodriguez's thinking, or of Philip's mind only. [:)]
Even so, I don't object to that at all. To each his own as called and led by spirit, and that's cool. The fruits of all labors are eventually forthcoming for all to see. As stated several times previously, my criticisms and objections have been to demands that his individual 'truth' be accepted without question by everyone here as the Ultimate Truth for us all. [V]
BTW, Chiron, thank you for wanting to inform me, but I lived as an ashram sannyasi for several years, and am thus well aware of what Brahmacharya is and how it is practiced!
Doc
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Just because you have lived in an ashram sannyasi for several years, doesn't mean that you know what Brahmacharya is and how it is practiced.
It is too bad that I am disqualified from receiving the knowledge you eluded to based on what you consider my anti-Christian and anti-Orthodox feelings..
Thankfully I have not received any such disqualification from Gnosticism or AYP and will gladly continue my pursuits in those areas.
So what use are those Esoteric Eastern Orthodox Christian Teachings and Techniques to us here? What use to us is your criticism if it is empty and does not offer anything different?
I'll take the magical mystery tour over nothing anytime.
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Hi David,
quote:
I've pulled out that direct stuff I said about Samael Aun Weor above, just to be compliant with forum policy, because it crosses a line. It remains however in your quoted reply to me: you can edit it out if you wish,
I took the quote out. No worries.
quote:
Christi said:
If I wanted to I could do it to any spiritual teacher in the world. Any.
Ramana Maharshi? Adyashanti? Gopi Krishna? I don't think so. And Buddha, I don't think so either.
Actually I didn't mean I could take any spiritual teacher and tear them down for having a messianic type hyper-inflated ego. I meant that I could tear anyones spiritual teachings appart for any number of reasons from any of a number of angles. Obviously I am not at all interested in doing this. I just wanted to make the point, that if I could, anyone can.
quote:
So, for example, I could speculate that there was a 'Jesus of Nazareth' who got a messiah complex. Or, I could speculate that there was a gifted spiritual teacher, Jesus of Nazareth, who didn't get a messiah complex, but a record was written that made him look as if he had one. Or, alternatively, he was a wise leader who at some point spun (maybe temproarily) into a messiah complex and a record was consequently written.
There is a fourth option which you seem to have overlooked. That he was the Son of God. The Messiah. The King of Kings. Always good to keep all the options open, don't you think? Especially if we are involved in a rational analysis[;)].
Actually the word Messiah is an interesting one. It is usually translated as saviour, but I believe it's actual meaning is "annointed one".
Jesus of Nazareth also had an interesting take on the term "Son of God". This is usually understood to mean "the only Son of God" in the Christian tradition. But Jesus actually said:
"If you follow my teachings, you will all become Sons and Daughters of God". I assume someone is actually following his teachings. At least, I hope so.[:)]
On the more difficult problem which you rightly raised... How can we engage in conversation in this forum if someone can say anything as a quote from their teacher and we cannot critisize it. I don't know the answer to that one.
In the example you gave about someone talking about flying saucers. I guess if they said, "I believe that flying saucers exist because my spiritual teacher, Fred Bloggs said so", then we could say that we do not believe that flying saucers exist, because we have not seen one. But if we start saying "Your teacher, Fred Bloggs, is two sticks short of a bundle and needs his head checked", then that would be crossing the line. After all, we don't actually have any evidence that flying saucers don't exist.
Christi
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Hi Philip,
quote:
Well, the kundalini reaches the crown, but then descends down to the heart. One rises, and then the next. Not simultaneously. And once all seven are raised (in the fire), one ether rests in Nirvana (one is born in heaven), or enters into the Straight Path which means you have to raise all the serpents again, but now on a higher octave (in the light). This is much more difficult, but only for these individuals is Christ incarnated. Even then, there are still levels and degrees. The different degrees are represented by "horns" or "tridents," like the horns on Michelangelo's Moses.
Thanks for the reply. Are you actually involved in this process yourself? I assume you are as your knowledge seems to be experiential as well as scriptural. In which case where are you in this process? Is it as clear cut to the extent that we can say, "the Serpent fire is now awakening the fith chakra in my fourth body"?
Do the seven bodies in some way relate to the five Olamot? And do the ten Sefirot in some way relate to the chakras?
When you talk of the process of raising the bodies for the second time, is this Yechidah?
Sorry to ask so many questions at once.
Christi
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Christi said:
There is a fourth option which you seem to have overlooked. That he was the Son of God. The Messiah. The King of Kings. Always good to keep all the options open, don't you think? Especially if we are involved in a rational analysis.
Christi, I haven't actually overlooked that -- I don't believe it. My not-believing it is actually very well-considered -- for me. So it wouldn't occur in one of my 'speculations' because it would no longer be me speculating.
On the more difficult problem which you rightly raised... How can we engage in conversation in this forum if someone can say anything as a quote from their teacher and we cannot critisize it. I don't know the answer to that one.
I think you then answered it yourself -- we should feel free to criticize the teachings, but not cross a line in the way we criticize the teacher.
Unfortunately, sometimes the criticism of the teacher is valid content in the argument about what is going wrong with the teachings, because psychological insight into the teacher can explain mistakes in what is taught. This means that valid criticism is limited here to an extent. Which is OK -- AYP forum is not the place for all discussion that is in itself good and appropriate.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chiron
Just because you have lived in an ashram sannyasi for several years, doesn't mean that you know what Brahmacharya is and how it is practiced.
Oh, yes it does. The rigors of celibate monastic life are a major challenge for any man who chooses to undertake it. This is exactly why learning the principles and techniques of Brahmacharya are required of everyone who becomes a Sannyasin, both males and females alike. [:)]
It is too bad that I am disqualified from receiving the knowledge you eluded to based on what you consider my anti-Christian and anti-Orthodox feelings..
Perhaps you misunderstood my reply somewhat. It's not that I wouldn't gladly share the information with you under the right circumstances, but simply that you are not an Orthodox Christian. As such, you don't already have an understanding of the many unfamiliar points of reference that you'd encounter. Therefore, you essentially disqualify yourself by virtue of having no interest in Christian Theology and Practice. As a result, I have neither the time nor the desire to teach everything to someone who is not genuinely interested in Orthodoxy. I hope you understand. [:)]
Thankfully I have not received any such disqualification from Gnosticism or AYP and will gladly continue my pursuits in those areas.
Excellent idea! Philosophically and theologically, you are probably much better suited to those methods. They are likely to present the same or similar concepts and practices in language that you are more familiar with and more comfortable with. Congratulations on your non-disqualification there. I wish you much success in those studies! [^]
So what use are those Esoteric Eastern Orthodox Christian Teachings and Techniques to us here? What use to us is your criticism if it is empty and does not offer anything different?
As stated previously, the Teachings in question were specifically formulated for use by Eastern Orthodox Christians as an aid to their spiritual lives, and were never meant for general public dissemination. Once again, I hope you understand. [:)]
My critique of Philip's Magical Mystery Tour Teachings is quite valid, and far from empty, whether I offer any alternative or not. I believe that the criticism which has been posted by me and others is well deserved without any point by point comparison to any alternatives. [:p]
I'll take the magical mystery tour over nothing anytime.
A wise decision on your part. The Magical Mystery Tour Method is undoubtedly the next best option to no method at all! [;)]
Hari OM!
Doc
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
"Your teacher, Fred Bloggs, is two sticks short of a bundle and needs his head checked".
Christi:
I really enjoyed your entire post. You made several excellent points. But the quoted line above got me laughing, because it reminded me of a similar saying used by country folk here in Texas in reference to people who are considered a bit deficient mentally.
This local saying is usually said something like this..."That Ole Boy's 'bout two flapjacks shy of a short stack". [:D]
Sophisticated food references are commonly employed as literary devices here in Texas. [8D] [;)]
Another favorite of mine is..."That Ole Boy's bisquits ain't quite baked". [:)]
Regards ~
Doc
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quote:
Philip, while we are on this issue, can you please tell us if Samael Aun Weor taught any specific mental or physical techniques to assist in withholding orgasm during the sexual act?
He does not recommend any type of forceful (blocking) means to stop a spasm. I know some teach a lock technique for men to squeeze or apply pressure to the sexual organ in a way to prevent ejaculation. There also exist teachings that help men to have orgasm without ejaculation, using certain techniques. All of this is considered the same, because the energy is being wasted, whether it be seminal energy, chemical energy, vital energy, emotional energy, mental energy, etc. By wasted I mean, outwardly into the physical world instead of back into the subtle worlds.
The best method to prevent orgasm is to stop before you have it. It is that simple! I know this terribly difficult for beginners. For beginners, what is recommenced is very short periods of connection. For some, this many mean five or ten minutes once a week. For some, even one minute is too much - but soon with practice, the body can change its habitual removal of sexual energy into the habit of transmuting it.
In the case of a mistake, where the spasm is already on the verge of occuring, read the following:
If by misfortune the spasm comes against our will, the disciple will then withdraw from the act and immediately lie down in Decubitus-Dorsal (face up) and will then refrain quickly with the following movements:
Instructions
1. Execute the supreme effort that a woman does when she is giving birth, sending the nervous current towards the sexual organs but with it, doing an effort to close the sphincters or exits through which the seminal fluid usually escapes. This is a supreme effort.
2. Inhale as if you were pumping, or making the seminal fluid rise with the respiration towards the brain. As you inhale, vocalise the Mantra HAM. Imagine this energy rising to the brain and then passing to the heart.
3. Now exhale the breath imagining the Sexual Energy being fixed in the heart. While exhaling, vocalise the mantra SAH.
4. If the spasm is very strong, refrain, refrain, and continue inhaling and exhaling with the help of the mantra HAM-SAH. HAM is masculine. SAH is feminine. HAM is Solar. SAH is Lunar.
One must expel the air rapidly through the mouth producing the sound SAH in a soft and delightful way. One must inhale with the mouth half open, mentally chanting the mantra HAM.
The basic idea of this esoteric exercise is to invert the respiratory process making it truly positive, since in the present state the negative lunar aspect SAH predominates, which leads to seminal discharge. By inverting the respiratory process through this breathing exercise, the centrifugal force becomes centripetal and the semen then flows inwards and upwards.
Amplification
The instructions that we have given in the former paragraphs can also be applied in the case of spasm and in general to every practise of Sexual Magic. Every practice of Sexual Magic can be concluded with this marvelous exercise. The work in the Ninth Sphere means struggle, sacrifice, effort, willpower. The weak ones flee from the Ninth Sphere, horrified, terrified, frightened. Those who are devoured by the Serpent become Serpents, Gods.
In very grave cases, when the sexual spasm occurs suddenly, with imminent danger of seminal ejaculation, the Initiate must immediately withdraw from the act and lie on his back on the floor, holding his breath. To do this one must seal the nasal passages, pressing them with one's index finger and thumb. This effort must be accompanied by concentration of thought. The neophyte must concentrate intensely on the pulsations of the phallus, which are a repetition of the cardiac pulse. He must try to refrain these sexual pulsations to avoid spilling the semen, and if he is forced to inhale oxygen, this must be done with a very short and rapid inhalation, continuing with the maximum retention of breath. - Samael Aun Weor
When you are saying HAM, do so mentally, as you are inhaling. Using imagination and willpower to pull all the currents of energy upwards, to reverse the outwardly flow to an inwardly flow. If it is really bad, if you feel as if you can not control it, keep inhaling, more and more, and only let out small, quick breath where you say SAH. In grave situations you may need to hold your breath for 20 or 30 seconds, because you if exhale at all the spasm will occur or semen will be discharged.
HAM-SAH is a very powerful pranayama. You can do this whenever you wish in order to transmute the sexual energy. For men who suffer from wet dreams, pranayama is a very powerful act help with that. Wet dreams are a very serious problem, but they can be overcome. Wet dreams are the outcome of a body and mind that has the bad habit of fornicating. But you can transform that.
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quote:
...we should feel free to criticize the teachings, but not cross a line in the way we criticize the teacher
inquiring is different from declaring it 'wrong or unworthy' which already crossed the line.
quote:
...valid criticism is limited here to an extent. Which is OK
new protocol for the members?
quote:
...criticism of the teacher is valid content in the argument about what is going wrong with the teachings
the above statement is true if one is advanced in their practices to find the faults / solutions accordingly.
learning is by exploring and practice. not by criticism.
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hi David, i don't have any hard feelings towards you, and neither i agree with you in certain things.
not necessary you should agree with me either [:p]
wish you good luck in your chosen path !
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inquiring is different from declaring it 'wrong or unworthy' which already crossed the line.
I disagree; it's OK to declare things wrong or unworthy, explicitly or implicitly. That is called 'giving a contary opinion'. Which is what you are doing here; you are implying that my opinion on this is wrong.
learning is by exploring and practice. not by criticism.
Again I disagree. Direct criticism is not for everyone, and those who don't like it should stay out of it, though I recommend that they don't prescribe the same path for others.
Some people have the quality that we might want to label, for simplicity, 'piety' and believe piety to be a high spiritual quality, and prescribe it for others. Others, like me, don't believe this 'piety' to be a high spiritual quality at all. It's just the way some people are, and believe in being.
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Philip,
Thanks for the reply. Are you actually involved in this process yourself? I assume you are as your knowledge seems to be experiential as well as scriptural. In which case where are you in this process? Is it as clear cut to the extent that we can say, "the Serpent fire is now awakening the fith chakra in my fourth body"?
Do the seven bodies in some way relate to the five Olamot? And do the ten Sefirot in some way relate to the chakras?
When you talk of the process of raising the bodies for the second time, is this Yechidah?
Sorry to ask so many questions at once.
Christi
Well, the process begins for anyone who does three things:
1) Transmutes the sexual energy (born again).
2) Dies to the ego (the beheading of John).
3) Sacrifices for humanity.
"If anyone wishes to come after me", he said, "he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me" (Lk 9:23).
Deny yourself: die to the (false) self. You can only do this through meditation, because without meditation you cannot possibly see who you truly are.
Take up your cross: Tantrism, the crossing of elements.
Follow me: Perform good works for the sake of humanity.
What is important to remember, concerning the self-realization of the Being, is that it is the Being, the inner Father is the one that we are working for. The "me," the "myself," has no importance, in fact it is the "I" that we currently are that must die, so that the true man can be born. The ego is not the one who is earning the initiations, the ego doesn't raise the kundalini. It is the Being who is transforming into a Master. We, here on earth, are just exponents of the our inner Father, who we must glorify by awakening, and transmuting our energy so that He can manifest on Earth.
The one who is awakening the kundalini is really awakened. There is nothing vague about it. He knows. He can travel in the subtle bodies with ease.
Everyone, it seems at least, think that after a few years of practice, when they have some psychosomatic phenomena occur, that they feel some sensations, or see things, that this must mean their kundalini is awakened, that their chakras are opened, etc. No. All of that occurs before the kundalini even raises one single vertebra. Personally, yes of course I have had experiences, but these means nothing. The ascent of the kundalini is very serious, very profound, very difficult. Very personal too, so I would not say matter of that nature to anyone. Really, the matters of one's personal kundalini is between you and your internal God. No one else should know, unless of course, your inner being wants you to tell others. And things like that occur, but very rarely. You see, you have to follow the 10 Commandments, which is the Secondary Law (Deuteronomical Law), but when you have direct rapport which your inner Father, then you can follow the First Law: which is to obey him. This is why Jesus is such a revolutionary, because was breaking all the laws, but he did so because inner Father told him to do it.
There are many, many, many, correspondences. So many, that one can, and people do go crazy studying things like this. They study and study, but because they don't practice, they don't get anywhere. They get confused and the outcome is failure. Basically though, the seven-fold spirit of man is laid out by the seven lowest sephiroth:
1. Physical Body (Malkuth - "Kingdom")
2. Vital Body (Yesod - "Foundation," the Stone of Sex that the "builders" reject.)
3. Sidereal (Astral) Body (Hod)
4. Mental Body (Netzach)
5. Casual Body (Tiphereth)
6. Buddhic Body (Geburah)
7. Atmic Body (Chesed, "Father")
In each body we have to send the "Word" to the "Churches" that are in Asia. But Asia is a blind, what it means is Assiah, the lowest world of the Kabbalah.
1. Church of Ephesus – Chakra Muladhara - Sexual glands
2. Church of Smyrma – Chakra Svadhisthana - Prostate region
3. Church of Pergamos – Chakra Manipura - Solar Plexus (stomach)
4. Church of Thyatira – Chakra Anahata - Cardiac (heart)
5. Church of Sardis – Chakra Vishuddha - Larynx (throat)
6. Church of Philadelphia – Chakra Ajna - Frontal Cortex (brain)
7. Church of Laodicea – Chakra Sahasrara - Pineal gland
We send that Word, that Fire, that INRI, up the tree of life through the transmutation of the sexual energy. This is why Yesod is literally the "foundation." That Tree of Life is the spinal column, because the spinal column is where all the life of the bodies come from. Each of the seven candlesticks is a spinal columns. God said, "He who eats of the this tree shall surely die;" but he who "overcomes" shall not taste the second death, because he overcame his own (sexual) temptation, which is the root of sin. Then, you reenter "Eden" which means to be full of the creative potential of god, and once there you can eat freely of the Tree of Life, which is the Science of God, Kabbalah. Kabbalah, from kabel, "to receive." The real kabbalist is one who is receiving the bread of life directly from God.
quote:
When you talk of the process of raising the bodies for the second time, is this Yechidah?
Yechidah is the most superior vesture of the Absoulte. In a way, yes, the final, final works of this universe at least is in correspondence with the Yechidah. It is said that the Yechidah only comes when the Messiah does, meaning Christ. So, you have to take the Direct Path, incarnate Christ, and receive that Yechidah, and later enter into the Ain.
Read the following for more detail, although you need to know kabbalah to really see the depth of these scriptures:
The letter Mem Sophit represents Yechidah, the image of the Ain, the Absolute, the absolute consciousness of the Being, the Ain Soph, the Paramarthasatyas floating in the unknowable Waters of the abstract space.
Proverb 10: 25: “As the whirlwind (the Ruach Elohim) ceases, so to do the wicked [in Ain]; but Is an everlasting foundation in the righteous.”
The whirlwind, the whirling Aleph (that carries the image, Tzalem, of the three primary forces of the Elohim) is the everlasting companion of Tzaddi (the Tzaddik, the Righteous).
John 1: 26: “John answered them, saying, I (by means of scientific Chastity) baptize with water (in Yesod-Sex): but there (in Hod) stands one (Fire, the Tzalem) among you, whom you know not (this is the image, the Ruach of the Elohim, that floating above the Schamayim [holy water] of Yesod. He it is (Fire), who coming after me is preferred before me (the Ain Soph Aur).”
Revelation is received in degrees; the highest levels of revelation are received through Chaiah and Yechidah. Faith develops gradually; it develops through different states of consciousness, which are developed through the Self-realization of the being by means of Sexual Magic. So, the very Essence of the Elohim: Nephesh, Neshamah, Ruach, Chaiah and Yechidah are placed with the Ain Soph Aur in Yesod-Sex (the Tree of Good and Evil). Faith is the fruit of the tree of Good and evil; it is Gnosis or Living Knowledge, living experiences within all of the Sephiroth of the Tree of Life. http://www.gnosticteachings.org/courses/twenty-two-arcana/arcanum-18-twilight.html
The Cosmic Crestos spoke through Jesus when he said the following in the Pistis Sophia:
It came to pass then, when Jesus [the son of Nun, the righteous one] had finished saying these words to his disciples, that he continued again in the discourse, and said unto them; “Lo, I have then put on my Vesture [Yechidah], and all authority hath been given me through the First Mystery [Kether]. Yet a little while and I will tell you the mystery of the universe and the fullness of the universe; and I will hide nothing from you from this hour on, but in fullness will I perfect you in all fullness and in all perfection and in all mysteries, which are the perfection of all perfections and the fullness of all fulnesses and the gnosis of all gnoses,--those which are in my Vesture [Yechidah]. I will tell you all mysteries from the exteriors of the exteriors to the interiors of the interiors. But hearken that I may tell you all things which have befallen me. It came to pass then, when the sun [the Ain Soph Aur] had risen in the east [Nous], that a great light-power came down, in which was my Vesture, which I had left behind in the four-and-twentieth mystery [Arcanum 24: the Divine Mother in Yesod-Daath], as I have said unto you. And I found a mystery in My Vesture, written in five words of those from the height: ZAMA ZAMA OZZA RACHAMA OZAI,
Whose solution is this: “THE ROBE, THE GLORIOUS ROBE OF MY STRENGTH.”
If you want to know more, that pronounce this mantra in meditation: ZAMA ZAMA OZZA RACHAMA OZAI. Meditate on it, this is how you comprehend.
The rest of this post is simply food for meditation.
"7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
"10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil [ego] shall cast some of you into prison [of darkness, confusion, suffering, ignorance, etc.], that ye may be tried [through the trials of Job]; and ye shall have tribulation ten days [Arcanum 10 which is Karma, you have to pay what you owe]: be thou faithful unto [psychological] death, and I will give thee a crown of life [Kether-Chokmah-Binah, the Christ].
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."
"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed within you." - Galatians, chapter 4:19
Uselessly Christ in Bethlehem was born
If within our heart his birth is forlorn.
His crucifixion, death, and resurrection on the third day from among the dead were in vain,
Unless his crucifixion, death, and resurrection, be set up within each one of us again.
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip
The Cosmic Crestos spoke through Jesus when he said the following in the Pistis Sophia:
"It came to pass then, when Jesus [the son of Nun, the righteous one] had finished saying these words to his disciples..."
Hi Philip:
The quote above is one of many examples from your posts which I find confusing and/or historically inaccurate. [:0]
As you probably know, the name 'Jesus' is a transliteration of the name 'Yeshua'. This is the actual name which Jesus Christ used during His earthly life....Yeshua ben Yusef.
There were, however, two other famous figures in Biblical Literature who had the name Yeshua as well. The most familiar of these two is the person generally known in the English language Bibles as Joshua..Yeshua ben Nun...who led the Israelites into the Promised Holy Land and fought the Battle of Jericho.
The other is Yeshua ben Sirach, the Author of the Deuterocanonical Text entitled "Ecclesiasticus" or "The Wisdom of Sirach".
So is the 'Jesus' being referenced in your quote above Jesus Christ or Joshua son of Nun? If Jesus Christ, why confuse those familiar with Biblical Works by adding "the son of Nun", which Jewish and Christian readers associate with 'Joshua' (Yeshua ben Nun)? And if it refers to Joshua, the son of Nun, why confuse that by calling him 'Jesus' as if referring to Jesus Christ[?]
Doc
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quote:
So is the 'Jesus' being referenced in your quote above Jesus Christ or Joshua son of Nun? If Jesus Christ, why confuse those familiar with Biblical Works by adding "the son of Nun", which Jewish and Christian readers associate with 'Joshua' (Yeshua ben Nun)? And if it refers to Joshua, the son of Nun, why confuse that by calling him 'Jesus' as if referring to Jesus Christ[?]
Doc
Doc,
That is a good question. The reason is that I am not talking about any specific historical person. In Gnosticism, we do not care about historical events that much. What we care about is the meaning of the teaches left to us. Many Jews (Lions of Judah, meaning initiates of the Wisdom) changed different parts of the Bible to mingle historical data with allegorical teachings to help the people accomplish their religion. So, all these stories of the Prophets, while always having some historical basis, are almost never accurate in regards to physical history, but very accurate in accordance with the levels of the self realization of the being.
The answer is that, in kabbalah, every "Yeshua" is a "son of Nun." But one has to understand what a Yeshua is, and what Nun is. A Yeshua is the Savior that always emerges from the Waters (Mark 1:10). Nun means fish. The Nun swims in the Mem; Mem is the water, the Mother, the Mary, the Maria, the Mariam, the mother-matter which the soul body is sown and risen as a spiritual body. Nun is the principle of life that swims in the divine fiery waters of life (schamayim), that descend from the Daath, down into the sexual waters of Yesod.
If you want to know more, then read these notes before the following quotes, which is highly kabbalistic and difficult to comprehend!
quote:
VAV sixth letter of the Hebrew Alphabet, it symbolizes the Spinal Medulla; ‘Vav’ the foundation of the property of hearing the word; ‘Vav’ means ‘and’, ‘connection’
Schamayim: The Divine fiery Water, which is the fiery outflow of Solar Energy, the flaming river pouring from the Ain Soph Aur in the presence of Iod-Havah Elohim in Daath.
IOD: Tenth letter of the Hebrew Alphabet, it symbolizes the Lingam, the sexual, generating Power of Kether hidden within Nachash-Ima-Elohim, Havah in Yesod.
KAPH: Eleventh letter of the Hebrew Alphabet, it symbolizes the Crown Chakra, in other words, it represents the Light-Power of the Ain Soph self-realizing its latent Spiritual Power in Chesed, the Monad through the Three Supernals in the Brain. The letter Kaph indicates the necessity of remembering the power of Elohim within us from moment to moment, so that the three Supernals can fully manifest their power in our physical body and thus make their presence concrete within us.
Shechinah: means "Indwelling Presence." Shechinah is the feminine Divine force of God. She is the Divine Mother whose essence, feminine force or creative force is in exile (not active in us). She is the creative force of God that abides in the Chakra Muladhara. The Divine Mother Kundalini is the erotic, sensual chaste loving force underlying within the Church of Ephesus, whose veil covers the mystery of Daath. She is the fiery power within every Elohim. The exile of the Shechinah means the exile from the chaste powers of the Kundalini by means of Fornication and the falling into Klipoth through the Kundabuffer (inverted kundalini, or tail of satan).
"The Nun moves within the Mem, the fish that swims protected by Schamayim (the living waters of life) from the Ain Soph Aur, the unknowable divine.
Within all Monads from the Ain Soph, Nun symbolizes every non-active element that lacks Self-cognizance, but by means of the Self-realization of the Being, in other words, by means of the transmutation of the waters of Yesod, in the Ninth Sphere, Sex; these elements develop and become active. Thereafter, these Nun elements appear as fiery self-cognizant active elements (by means of the Iod and Havah) of all Self-realized Beings or Elohim, at the dawning of any universe."
"The tides of Schamayim in Daath reached Yesod and are controlled by the moon. In Yesod are the Waters of life that give life to the King (Meleck) when the solar forces of the Messiah within Nun are liberated in sexual alchemy. Then the energies of the Messiah rise through Vav from the Iod in Yesod and reach the Brain, the Kaph or the Crown of the King. This is how the tides of the new moon, the Mother Aima Elohim (through her Shechinah that vibrates in Nun) bring through sexual transmutation the life of a new king. Eventually this Shechinah gives birth a new king, the savior, the Messiah, of Israel or liberator of the conscious particles of our Monad that are trapped in Malkuth and that are slaves of the forces of the Leviathan (sex), the Behemoth (emotion) and the unclean Ofa of the mind."
More on NUN can be found here: http://www.gnosticteachings.org/courses/twenty-two-arcana/arcanum-14-temperance.html
More on every one of the 22 letters can be found here: http://www.gnosticteachings.org/courses/twenty-two-arcana/
So, this is the way that we understand that Yeshua, the Pentagrammaton, the Iod-He-Shin-Vav-He, always comes from the Mem, as the son of Nun.
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Huh [?] Say what [?] [8]
Excuse me for questioning your explanation, Philip, but the writings that your quote was gleaned from didn't use the name 'Yeshua', which means 'God Is Salvation', but used the name 'Jesus' instead. I'm pretty certain that all Christians, and even Jews, Muslims, or other non-Christians who see the name 'Jesus' in religious and spiritual writings will assume that it is referring to 'Jesus of Nazareth' or 'Jesus Christ', not an unfamiliar and eccentric Gnostic allegory. [;)]
So why confuse virtually everyone who reads these works by asking them to accept an entirely new mindset association with the name 'Jesus', especially when the teachings in question are presented as 'Gnostic Christianity'? Wouldn't you agree that the term 'Christianity' is generally perceived worldwide to mean religious beliefs and practices specifically associated with the life and teachings of 'Jesus Christ' or 'Jesus of Nazareth'? [:)]
So why confuse everyone by using the name 'Jesus' in the context of your interpretation? It seems to me that doing so only serves to weaken the credibility of the allegorical teachings, as does the 'literary license' of disregarding the familiar and accepted historical associations of the Torah, Bible, and Koran. I would bet that this practice alone serves to automatically invalidate the writings and teachings in the minds of millions. [:0]
If the goal is to promote the gnostic teachings so that more people can benefit from them, wouldn't the use of 'Yeshua' or some other less familiar name be alot better? [;)]
Doc
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quote:
If the goal is to promote the gnostic teachings so that more people can benefit from them, wouldn't the use of 'Yeshua' or some other less familiar name be alot better? [;)]
Doc
Doc, I appreciate and value your comments. Thank you.
A true and proper introduction to these teachings I have not given on this thread. And, indeed, the Pistis Sophia is an advanced work that, in order to understand the meaning of the word according to the way I have presented it, one has to first have a good deal of intellectual background that I did not give. By posting that I know I was challenging the reader to understand it, but I'd rather give too much than too little. Ultimately that post was direct at Christi (and others), who seems to have some background or interest in kabbalah and esotericism to some extent.
In general though, it is absolutely necessary to change one's mindset if they are interested in learning these gnostic teachings. As we know, one cannot pure new wine into an old wineskin. The wineskin is our mind: the way we think, the way we associate, our "mindset." Trying to pour the wine of gnosis into the wineskin of the traditionally accepted ways of thinking will result in confusion. It goes beyond just this issue, the very essence of the doctrine is radically different, from point zero onward. The more one has a traditional mindset regarding Christianity the more one will struggle to make any sense of these teachings; that doesn't mean it isn't possible though. And, I want you do know I don't say this because I want to offend, but because it is the truth of the matter.
That being said, some of the things I have posted on here are very complicated and intricate, that is a level that some people are looking for. Not everyone needs that right away. As Paul said: Some people need milk, some people need meat.
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quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
The more one has a traditional mindset regarding Christianity the more one will struggle to make any sense of these teachings; that doesn't mean it isn't possible though. And, I want you do know I don't say this because I want to offend, but because it is the truth of the matter.
Hi Philip:
Agreed. [^] Amen to that , Brother! [:D] No offense taken at all. [:)]
Regards ~
Doc
P.S. I thought you might like this site if you haven't already seen it. [8D]
http://www.howarddavidjohnson.com/mystic.htm
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Hi Philip,
Thanks for the very informative reply.
quote:
Everyone, it seems at least, think that after a few years of practice, when they have some psychosomatic phenomena occur, that they feel some sensations, or see things, that this must mean their kundalini is awakened, that their chakras are opened, etc. No. All of that occurs before the kundalini even raises one single vertebra. Personally, yes of course I have had experiences, but these means nothing. The ascent of the kundalini is very serious, very profound, very difficult. Very personal too, so I would not say matter of that nature to anyone. Really, the matters of one's personal kundalini is between you and your internal God. No one else should know, unless of course, your inner being wants you to tell others. And things like that occur, but very rarely.
Sorry if I was asking a personal question in regards to the Kundalini.[:I]
As far as I am concerned, I have had many Kundalini experiences, some of which have blown the top of my head off, and left me wondering if I was going to die or not. I happily tell anyone who is interested about any of these experiences. Actually, surprisingly few people show any interest at all![:0] I suppose that my higher self wants me to for some reason[:)].
The reason I am asking about the seven bodies, the Sefirot, the Olamot and the serpant fire (Kundalini), is that things seem to get a bit confusing here in terms of the scriptures, especially where Yoga is concerned. Yoga talks about the seven bodies: physical, vital (emotional), mental, etheric (pranic), astral, causal, and the bliss body: atmic. Yoga also talks about the existence of realms of being (universes) that relate to these bodies. Yoga acnowledges the chakras, and relates the chakras to the universes and bodies (although fairly tenuously). But when it comes to Kundalini and the raising of it, most of the scriptures simply seem to say:
"Once awakened, The Kundalini Shakti rises from the root chakra through each of the seven main chakras in turn, awakening each one, until it reaches the crown chakra, at which point the yogi is enlightened".
If there is any addition to this description, it goes along the lines of:
"once the crown is fully active, the White Light of Siva descends from above, through the open Crown, and merges with the Shakti energy coming from below, uniting as Love in the heart, and fully opening the heart chakra, at this point the Yogi is enlightened".
I have never seen anything like:
"Once the Kundalini energy has reached the crown, and the crown chakra has been opened fully, the energy then decends to the root chakra of the second body to begin the whole process again".
This is the sourse of my confusion.
In kundalini yoga they talk about seven chakras above the head (making 14 in total), the first starting about 2 feet above the top of the head, and going up quite far (many feet above the head). I know that each body (subtle human body) is larger than the one directly below it in terms of the width of th vibrational oscillation, so all I can imagine, is that these 7 chakras (above the crown) relate to the crown chakras of each ascending subtle body, so meditating on them in turn would cause the kundalini energy to rise to the crown of each subtle body, opening each chakra in that body as it goes. Of course the maths does not add up for this hypothesis to work. After the physical, there are 6 subtle bodies, so there should be 6 chakras above the head, not seven, unless of course, the last, and highest chakra (ten feet or so above the head) relates somehow to the 3 highest Sefirot.
Of course, it isn't your problem if Yoga is vague in relation to it's understanding of the Kundalini process, it is mine[:I], as Yoga is my primary path, and practice. But one of the reasons that I make inroads into the studies of other systems of spiritual practice such as Christian Gnostisism, is to try and fill the gaps in understanding in the Yoigic system. I would be very surprised if these gaps in the knowledge base of Yoga actually existed (other than between my ears[;)]) as Yoga is an extremely advanced practice, with a correspondingly rich knowledge base. It could be simply that this stuff hasn't yet made it onto the internet, so I (and presumably many others) don't know about it yet.
quote:
Yechidah is the most superior vesture of the Absoulte. In a way, yes, the final, final works of this universe at least is in correspondence with the Yechidah. It is said that the Yechidah only comes when the Messiah does, meaning Christ. So, you have to take the Direct Path, incarnate Christ, and receive that Yechidah, and later enter into the Ain.
I'll give it my best shot. I'll let you know if I make it... if I still have a physical form by then, and access to a computer[:D].
Christi
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Hi Christi,
It has been very interesting to follow the discussion here with all the knowledge that has been exchanged, and that you have contributed with.
quote:
I happily tell anyone who is interested about any of these experiences. Actually, surprisingly few people show any interest at all!
It may not be that people aren't really interested, but maybe that one of the main principles of AYP, and purposes of this forum, is that it's practices that makes us progress and not experiences, so most may be more interested in discussing actual practices and maybe don't think that their experiences are that important. It could also be that many haven't had many experiences to compare with. But you are of course welcome to share any experiences, we will listen! And I think many could be interested as well. [:)]
quote:
But one of the reasons that I make inroads into the studies of other systems of spiritual practice such as Christian Gnostisism, is to try and fill the gaps in understanding in the Yoigic system.
It makes a lot of sense to get a complete picture, and we always seek the ultimate truth and knowledge. It may be that Yoga doesn't present all the details on how things work spiritually. However, I also believe that Yogani has presented a complete set of practices that will take us to the ultimate goal of life if applied. If it was necessary (for reaching the goal of life) to understand for example how kundalini works in the subtle bodies and chakras I think he would have included it.
It's important to note that Yogani has described his work "Advanced Yoga Practices", and not "Complete Description of Principles and Processes Leading to Enlightenment". I would of course as well be interested in finding such a work, but I also understand that this knowledge will be accessible to us as we open up spiritually, and by spending too much energy studying it intellectually from outer sources it may distract us from integrating our practices in daily life.
Best wishes on your path! [:)]
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quote:
It's important to note that Yogani has described his work "Advanced Yoga Practices", and not "Complete Description of Principles and Processes Leading to Enlightenment". I would of course as well be interested in finding such a work, but I also understand that this knowledge will be accessible to us as we open up spiritually, and by spending too much energy studying it intellectually from outer sources it may distract us from integrating our practices in daily life.
I totally agree I spent many years doing just that all to no real avail when with the proper practices these things can come to you in one flash of insight [8D]
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Can someone explain to me the deeper meaning behind Proverbs Nine. Who is this story about or what is it about? Chakras? What?
I was always curious about this scripture, from a childhood experience, and I was wondering what anyone's take on it was.
Thanks again,
VIL
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Hi Weaver,
thanks for the reply...
quote:
It may not be that people aren't really interested, but maybe that one of the main principles of AYP, and purposes of this forum, is that it's practices that makes us progress and not experiences, so most may be more interested in discussing actual practices and maybe don't think that their experiences are that important. It could also be that many haven't had many experiences to compare with. But you are of course welcome to share any experiences, we will listen!
I wasn't actually referring to people in this forum when I said that most people were not at all interested in Kundalini (or in fact any spiritual) experiences. I was reffering more to the people in my workplace, the people I meet in the local bar.. you know, the general population at large. I mainly don't talk about spiritual matters at all. This forum is a very different place. And of course, I agree that practices are by far the main thing (as they are in my life), and scriptural knowledge is only a support to that. Of course I don't need people to listen to my Kundalini stories[:)]. I share them when it is appropriate to help advance understanding on spiritual matters for everyone (hopefully including myself).
quote:
However, I also believe that Yogani has presented a complete set of practices that will take us to the ultimate goal of life if applied. If it was necessary (for reaching the goal of life) to understand for example how kundalini works in the subtle bodies and chakras I think he would have included it.
Maybee he hasn't got round to it yet... he's a busy man[:D]
Christi
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Hi Christi,
Thank you for your reply. Yes, this is what I find as well, that most people I know or otherwise meet "in the street", are not too interested in these things. That's why I find this forum a great place to share common interests like these. [:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL:
Can someone explain to me the deeper meaning behind Proverbs Nine. Who is this story about or what is it about?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KJV: Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars: Proverbs 9:1 à çëîåú áðúä áéúä çöáä òîåãéä ùáòä
Wisdom
chokmowth (khok-moth')
wisdom -- wisdom, every wise (woman).
hath builded
banah (baw-naw')
to build (literally and figuratively) -- (begin to) build(-er), obtain children, make, repair, set (up), surely.
her house
bayith (bah'-yith)
a house (in the greatest variation of applications, especially family, etc.)
she hath hewn out
chatsab (khaw-tsab')
to cut or carve (wood), stone or other material); by implication, to hew, split, square, quarry, engrave -- cut, dig, divide, grave, hew (out, -er), made, mason.
her seven
sheba` (sheh'-bah)
a primitive cardinal number; seven (as the sacred full one); also (adverbially) seven times; by implication, a week; by extension, an indefinite number
pillars
`ammuwd (am-mood')
a column (as standing); also a stand, i.e. platform -- apiece, pillar.
CORE PRINCIPLES:
The Seven Pillars of Wisdom
WISDOM is the ability to perceive or determine what is good, true or sound. It is manifested through common sense or sound judgement. To be wise is to have that ability.
Through training and constant practice one can actually reprogram the mind. One begins with the re-engineering of the thought processes by first becoming conscious of one’s own thoughts. One can then consciously accept or reject a particular thought process. By constantly accepting or rejecting particular thought processes one can alter one’s behaviour, one can acquire new habits and one can therefore change one’s character.
Someone once wrote: "Sow a thought reap an action; Sow an action reap a habit; Sow a habit reap a character; Sow a character reap a destiny".
Now to achieve success in the training program means that every effort is made in practicing these attributes until they become inbred habits.
In doing so, conformity to the model that embodies completeness or maturity is attained. These attributes are definitely essential to alter the matrix and reshape character. But the integrity of the matrix is dependent on LOVE. It is held together by LOVE. LOVE completes or perfects character.
The Seven Pillars are the foundation upon which the Character Matrix is built. They are necessary attributes to make one a well-balanced or complete person. LOVE being a major binding ingredient holding the matrix together. LOVE, in the sense a set of character attributes can be seen as related to maturity.
St. Paul defines LOVE by saying:
"Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails".
Within context, LOVE is the cement, which holds the Evolved Character Matrix together and determines its (structural) integrity. We need to teach people how to love again.
MORE TO COME....
Doc
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As usual, great response Doc. You've given me a lot to contemplate.
I'm actually at the point where I'm taking practice a lot more "serious" for lack of a better word, especially focusing on diet, giving up smoking, investigating the physical, psychological, spiritual, benefits of fasting, etc.
Although, I wasn't ignorant of the mind body connection, I never really equated it to spirituality for some strange reason - but lately realize how everything is interconnected and in order to advance spiritually it's important to purify the body also. So, I guess my personal experience of receiving a wise yoga's advice has come full circle, when he said to "watch what you eat". It's funny how "The Master will appear when the student is ready" and how we will convince ourselves that it's everything else that's stopping us from going full steam ahead and it can't be something as simple as THAT. LOL. That's how I am at times, stubborn, I guess you could say: [}:)]
So your post makes sense in reference to good habits/practice, etc.
I just read an article, where I think it was Aristotle who said that he refused to take on a new student who didn't fast for a certain amount of days, since he wasn't mentally prepared for the information.
I know I'm kind of just throwing everything out there in a kind of cobbled mess, speaking of fasting, diet, etc., but I just realized that I was working from only one half of the equation and it's time to integrate them all. And even though you've mentioned the importance, as did the Yogi, and others; it's about time to put it into practice.
Anyway, thanks again:
[:)]
VIL
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Thanks VIL! I'm glad that 'Wisdom' is whispering to you inwardly. [8D]
Here's a pretty good English Translation of Proverbs 9 in its entirety, followed by a link to an excellent paper on the comparative perspectives of Ancient Hebrew and Greek regarding Holy Wisdom from the psychological viewpoint of Wilhelm Reich. Hope you enjoy it! [:)]
English: New American Standard Bible
Proverbs 9:1-18
1. Wisdom has built her house,
She has hewn out her seven pillars;
2. She has prepared her food, she has mixed her wine;
She has also set her table;
3. She has sent out her maidens, she calls
From the tops of the heights of the city:
4. "Whoever is naive, let him turn in here!"
To him who lacks understanding she says,
5. "Come, eat of my food
And drink of the wine I have mixed.
6. "Forsake your folly and live,
And proceed in the way of understanding."
7. He who corrects a scoffer gets dishonor for himself,
And he who reproves a wicked man gets insults for himself.
8. Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you,
Reprove a wise man and he will love you.
9. Give instruction to a wise man and he will be still wiser,
Teach a righteous man and he will increase his learning.
10. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
11. For by me your days will be multiplied,
And years of life will be added to you.
12. If you are wise, you are wise for yourself,
And if you scoff, you alone will bear it.
13. The woman of folly is boisterous,
She is naive and knows nothing.
14. She sits at the doorway of her house,
On a seat by the high places of the city,
15. Calling to those who pass by,
Who are making their paths straight:
16. "Whoever is naive, let him turn in here,"
And to him who lacks understanding she says,
17. "Stolen water is sweet;
And bread eaten in secret is pleasant."
18. But he does not know that the dead are there,
That her guests are in the depths of Sheol.
http://www.abwoon.com/documents/ReadingWisdom.pdf
Regards to All!
Doc
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Wow, Doc, great article. I especially enjoyed the paradoxical experience between that of a mystic/poet and that of a schizophrenic. The latter unable to integrate experience, due to a split or disassociation of awareness oftentimes labeled as "the devil", "voices", an unknown "power", "energy current"; since schizophrenics, according to the author, had lost their sixth sense and created a sort of separation within themselves. [I used to work with schizophrenics and I often wondered about this - not to mention that Gopi Krishna mentioned the possibility that these individuals had too much prana within the body, too soon, and had a difficult time integrating this energy.
I also loved the insight concerning breath, that for compulsive neurotic individuals it's nearly impossible to inhale and exhale in one single breath [I'm still light headed, btw, which exasperated my own neurosis and made me self-conscious of my own breath. Thanks, Doc. Time to grab the DSM IV: LOL: [;)]]. And also the correlation between that and the childhood practice of holding the breath in order not to masturbate, the rigidity of militarists and the dysfunction of, what he surmised, as a cultural phenomenon of destructive practices of artificial self-control.
I'll have to reread the article, since there are so many points to contemplate - and I personally believe that all spiritual writings correspond with science and psychology.
I also wanted to add, that I often wondered about this aspect as it relates to the Kundalini Awakening, as a way of rationalizing, intellectualizing, released child hood trauma, related to the muladhara chakra [sexual energy], as it's often awakened at a time of crisis. And wondered if it has to do with the individuals ability/maturity to now handle the past experience or repressive tendency and integrate the sexual energy from a healthy point of retrospection. In other words, the adult is now able to look back at trauma and integrate the experience from a natural, healthy, psychological perspective, which creates a wholeness that was lacking - the dis associative aspect or separation from the child's true self/individuality/identity - due to mislabeling of negative experience - or the child's inability to express his/her feelings at the time of trauma. The reason why many people parallel the awakening of Kundalini as a second birth, and its often turbulent climb with that of a second adolescence.
And I would go further and say that this is a cultural, social, phenomenon in which the sexual energy is condensed at the genitals when its natural tendency is to be dispersed throughout the body. [ecstatic conductivity]. But due to social conditioning, often negative, preconceived notions, toward sexuality, this energy becomes trapped, within the base chakra, and isn't allowed to move freely until there is awareness of this negative conditioning and the gap is bridged between sexuality and spirituality.
Anyway, thanks, again, Doc:
[:)]
VIL
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quote:
Doc: I'm glad that 'Wisdom' is whispering to you inwardly.
Oh, I just caught this: [:)] No, the childhood experience of wisdom wasn't wispering to me: LOL. It was actually a person that went into a trance and quoted Proverbs 9 verse 1 at me when I was about ten or twelve years old and I never forgot it, although the person didn't remember saying it, afterward, but recalled going into a trance. Do do do do... LOL. Strange experience. Btw, I'm posting too much today. This will be my last post until tomorrow: LOL:
[:)]
VIL
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Hey, VIL:
I wasn't referring to your childhood experience. I meant that I am glad that Wisdom is whispering to you via the insights you glean from contemplating that which is discussed here. So, to add a bit more to the mix, this brief piece regarding the significance of the number seven in Biblical Texts might be of interest as well.
Seven
"And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of ram horns before the Ark of the Covenant; and the seventh day you shall encompass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets". (Joshua 6:4)
In the Bible, numbers have spiritual significance. Of all the numbers, seven is the most familiar because it appears about 600 times. Seven denotes spiritual perfection. It means divine fulness, completeness and totality. It comes from a Hebrew word meaning "to be full," "to be satisfied," and "to have enough".
Many times seven is important as a symbol rather than as an actual number. Whenever you read seven, it does not always literally mean seven things or seven occurrences. It is symbolic of the whole, the completion, the ideal situation, or the perfect picture of things. Seven constitutes a complete cycle.
One of the most profound examples of the use of the symbolic number seven is related to the fall of Jericho in the Joshua 6:1-20. Notice how many sevens appear in the scripture above. The use of the number seven simply means fulfillment or enough. Enough priests blew the trumpets and enough people marched around the walls enough times for the walls to come tumbling down.
Revelation, the last book of the Bible that completes the word of God contains more sevens than any of the other books. There are Seven Churches, Seven Seals, Seven Trumpets, Seven Personages, Seven Vials, Seven Woes, and Seven New Things. Additionally, there are Seven Glories of the Son of Man, and Seven Blessings. The word "Jesus" is found seven times, "Jesus Christ" seven times and "the Wrath of God" seven times.
The Holy Spirit is said to rest within a person in seven distinct ways: as Indwelling Holy Wisdom, Divine Understanding, Higher Knowledge, Loving Counsel, Sacred Presence, Spiritual Power, and Respect for God.
Our desire should be that the Holy Spirit will rest within us in the same seven ways.
Doc
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Hi Guys,
Does anyone know what the seven seals are?
And does anyone know why Christ said that the first shall be the last and the last shall be the first?
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Thanks for clarifying, Doc: [:)] And I wanted to thank you for your generosity and wisdom. I especially enjoyed this:
quote:
The Holy Spirit is said to rest within a person in seven distinct ways: as Indwelling Holy Wisdom, Divine Understanding, Higher Knowledge, Loving Counsel, Sacred Presence, Spiritual Power, and Respect for God.
Our desire should be that the Holy Spirit will rest within us in the same seven ways.
Doc
Hey, Christi, I've done a lot of research, but certainly don't know it all and can only give you my opinion on this subject.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life". Rev. 22: 13-17
In Kabbalah "the root" is associated with the last Sephiroth on the Tree of Life, called Malkhut/Malchut, The Kingdom of God, and is also associated with David/Faith/the Feet.
As we can see from the above Scripture, Christ is stating that He is the "root and the offspring of David". Now we can take that a couple of ways; since, in the literal sense, Christ was from the blood line of David, and we also know that Christ represented Faith, as did David. But there is a difference between Christ and David, in that Christ was the absolute personification/embodiment/perfection of Faith, any yet was beyond this attribute, as attested by His message/example throughout the scriptures. 'I am all things to all people'. Meaning that His message applied to the whole and not the part in releation to his example and Teaching. In my opinion, that's how you can tell if someone is truly Realized, or not, by their universalality or ego-lessness of their Writings.
Anyway, you'll also notice that the above scripture states, "the Spirit and the Bride say come"; which denotes a separation between "Spirit" (the Crown/Keter) and "Bride" (Malkhut/Kundalini), and yet, there is also a connection between the two. The First, the Spirit representing Christ, or absolute Faith, completeness, masculine energy, located on the tree of Life as a Crown (Keter) and the Last, the Kingdom representing David (Malkhut), feminine energy, the Bride, or Kundalini, located at the feet or base of the spine, depending on the source.
In Kabbalah, there is always a connection between the (first) upper and (last) lower Sephiroth. The lower gross form of energy reflecting the upper more subtle experience of prana, 'As in Heaven, also upon earth', 'The end is enshrined in the beginning', and the upper encapsulating the lower.
(There is a lot to this concerning the first and last, between Keter and Malkhut - many many articles).
In my opinion, there is no difference between this and the Chakra System, since they both speak about the culmination between the masculine and feminine energies. The difference being in the various interpretations of experience of the same expression of Divinity within the body and its location. And the reliance (Faith) of the lower Chakra Centers upon the upper Chakras, until their is a convergence or completeness.
I look at affect of the Kundalini on the body like that of a thermometer, or you can equate it to the superstring theory. Once our Kundalini is stretched to the crown, God will pluck our heart strings.
Edit: I would also like to add that I find that there is a lot of confusion related to Enlightenment/God Realization, et al, in my opinion, due to there being different levels of experience. In other words, it's hard for someone who has reached the apex of the Mineral Kingdom to understand someone who has reached the apex of the Divine Kingdom. In other words, using my example from above of a thermometer, we can note the different expressions that various people experience dependent on the location of this energy within the body.
Base - Sex
Heart - Bliss
Crown - Love
Nothingness/Egoless/Christ Consciousness/Emptiness/Oneness
So, you can see how the same energy transformed from gross expression to subtle expression. The same applies to any other of God's Attributes:
Base - Doubt
Heart - Belief
Crown - Faith
Egoless
Or:
Base - Female
Heart - Female/Male
Crown - Male
Nothingness
Or:
Base - Past
Heart - Present
Crown - Future
Egoless
Or:
Base - Awake State
Heart - Dream State
Crown - Deep Sleep State
Egoless
Or:
Base - Mineral Kingdom
Heart - Animal Kingdom
Crown - Human Kingdom
Nothingness/Divine
Anyway, you can do more research online, since I think that this post is long enough.
Take care:
[:)]
VIL
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Guys,
Does anyone know what the seven seals are?
Hi Christi,
I did a search and found some comprehensive information here http://www.tslpl.org/Sanatkumara12.html "The book is the book of the living Christ. The seven seals seal the seven spheres of the Cosmic Christ consciousness which are his to transfer through the path of initiation on the Ruby Ray to the sons and daughters of God."
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The word "lust" is often equated with sexual desire and adultery. I was wondering how people view this in light of a Christian/Gnostic/Kabbalist or Whatever perspective.
I've done a lot of research on the word and it seems like Biblical Usage is closer to "covet" and really has nothing to do with the actual sexual desire or act in many circumstances.
It's also interesting to note that Christ abrogated the Mosaic Law on Divorce and that in the time of Moses it was permissible for a man to have more than one wife. So, it seems logical that "lust" has nothing to do with God or a persons sexual proclivities, (unless taken to an extreme where someones desire is obsessive, to the point of coveting, where another person gets hurt - common sense), and also doesn't have anything to do with adultery. Since it was okay, in Moses time, for a man to have, or desire, sex with with more than one woman and it wasn't a sin.
"What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." Romans 7:7-13
Although I may not agree with its entirety, I thought this website made an interesting point.
quote:
The Greek word here is, of course, epithumia, which also means "covet" and is the word used by the translators of the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew, chamad, in Ex. 21:17 "Thou shalt not COVET ." It is not coincidence, by the way, that "neighbor's wife" is included with the other PROPERTY listed in this text...like neighbors ox etc...
In this case, Jesus was asserting that adultery does not consist primarily of sexual union of two people, at least one of which is married, but it consists rather in the intention, accomplished or not, to take what belongs to another. The purpose of the verse is to show no one is free of sin, but the nature of sin lies in impurity of the heart (taking from another man his wife) rather than the physical act itself.
http://www.libchrist.com/bible/lust.html
Btw, if you can't tell, I've given up celibacy: [:)]
Anyway, I would be interested in other peoples view on this subject.
VIL
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VIL,
I'm not going to take any solid position on what the writers of those old texts meant by 'lust'. However, in these times, I would entreat people not to use condemnatory words for sexual desire, or to carry related notions. Your desire mechanism works as it does. From an evolutionary point-of-view, sexual desire is meant to be intense. I believe any condemnation of its natural funcion is foolish and unconstructive.
People have ideals about a man only being attracted to one woman, or vice-versa. Ideals are fine -- when it starts to go wrong is when sexual desire -- which doesn't necessarily agree with those ideals -- is condemned. Which is what the word "lust" has frequently been used for in practice.
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quote:
david_obsidian:
VIL,
I'm not going to take any solid position on what the writers of those old texts meant by 'lust'. However, in these times, I would entreat people not to use condemnatory words for sexual desire, or to carry related notions. Your desire mechanism works as it does. From an evolutionary point-of-view, sexual desire is meant to be intense. I believe any condemnation of its natural funcion is foolish and unconstructive.
People have ideals about a man only being attracted to one woman, or vice-versa. Ideals are fine -- when it starts to go wrong is when sexual desire -- which doesn't necessarily agree with those ideals --is condemned. Which is what the word "lust" has frequently been used for in practice.
Great point, david. I agree 100%.
[:)]
VIL
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Hi Vil,
Thanks for the reply. Very informative. So all that stuff: I am the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omaga, is about the union of Siva and Shakti? I might of guessed.
Hi Weaver,
Thanks for the post on the seven seals. I will follow up the thread tomorrow.
quote:
The seven seals seal the seven spheres of the Cosmic Christ consciousness which are his to transfer through the path of initiation on the Ruby Ray to the sons and daughters of God."
This looks like it needs some investigating[8D].
Christi
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Homosexual Relationships in the Bible
quote:
Ruth 1:16-17 and 2:10-11 describe their close friendship Perhaps the best known passage from this book is Ruth 1:16-17 which is often read out during opposite-sex and same-sex marriage and union ceremonies:
"Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me." (NIV)
Ruth 1:14, referring to the relationship between Ruth and Naomi, mentions that "Ruth clave onto her." (KJV) The Hebrew word translated here as "clave" is identical to that used in the description of a heterosexual marriage in Genesis 2:24: " Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (KJV)
1 Samuel 18:3-4
"And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt." (NIV)
Since people in those days did not wear underwear, Jonathan stripped himself naked in front of David. That would be considered extremely unusual behavior (then and now) unless their relationship was physical.
1 Samuel 20:41
"After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with is face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together - but David wept the most."
The original Hebrew text says that they kissed each other and wept together until David became great. The word which means "great" in this passage is "gadal" in the original Hebrew. The same word is used elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures to refer to King Solomon being greater than all other kings. Some theologians interpret "gadal" in this verse as indicating that David had an erection. However, the thoughts of David becoming sexually aroused after kissing Jonathan may have been too threatening for Bible translators. They either deleted the ending entirely or created one of their own.
2 Samuel 1:26
"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women."
In the society of ancient Israel, it was not considered proper for a man and woman to have a platonic relationship. Men and women rarely spoke to each other in public. Since David's only relationships with women would have been sexual in nature, then he must be referring to sexual love here.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bmar.htm#rut
I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on the matter.
VIL
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Hi VIL, you put up the biggest fundie-bait imaginable, and nothing happens. [:)] Maybe it's because everyone is exhausted after nine pages -- our biggest topic so far, I think.
(fundie = fundamentalist )
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quote:
david_obsidian: Hi VIL, you put up the biggest fundie-bait imaginable, and nothing happens. Maybe it's because everyone is exhausted after nine pages -- our biggest topic so far, I think.
(fundie = fundamentalist )
[:)]
I guess it could be perceived that way and maybe that was my original intention when I posted the topic, but I couldn't find anything written by Christ where he specifically mentioned homosexuals, although it stands to reason that he was well aware of the prevalence of homosexuality at the time. The same goes with Krishna, Bahaullah, Zoroaster, Buddha, Etc.; Although their followers, of these Enlightened Souls decided to condemn homosexuality based on their own conceptions, interpretations, regardless that the leader of their Faiths hadn't specifically mentioned homosexuality. So, it stands to reason that sexual orientation had/has less to do with spirituality and more to do with apostle/disciple/follower ignorance influenced by their own cultural/personal belief systems of what was considered "right" and "wrong" behavior.
VIL
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Guys,
Does anyone know what the seven seals are?
And does anyone know why Christ said that the first shall be the last and the last shall be the first?
Hey Christi,
Seven Seals
If you Google the words seven, seals and chakras (I remembered something about the Seven Seals referring to the Chakras, at least in some peoples' belief -- and so, "Googled accordingly [;)][:o)] ) ... you will find a whole lotta info, much of it involving (alleged) ascended masters and/or their (purported) Earthly channels.
One of the more interesting articles I found, is located at:
http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/hercules/herc1031.html
It's a Theosophical (i.e. Alice Bailey) overview, which ties together the Seven Seals with the chakras, as well as with Greek mythology (the Seven Labors of Hercules) and modern endrocinology and neurophysiology.
The Last Shall Be First, Etc. Etc.
I have no clue.
My personal hypothesis is:
Jesus was messing with us.
Having some insight as to the workings of the human ego, and its attendant neurophysiological and psychological support systems, the teacher known in the West as Jesus Christ tossed out the statement in question, as a koan-like inquiry tool.
People will ask, discuss, debate, theorize, etc. etc. etc. about what he meant, what he could have meant, what he must have meant, and so on and so forth ... until a blessed moment occurs, in which all of one's related mental processing goes "Urk!" - and figuratively speaking, the wheels come flying off the bus (any mental processes which may have been sorta linear before the wheel-flying, are now in a state of ... "Urk!").
Since thoughts cannot be processed in such a state, insight may actually be able to wander in, unmolested, without getting flattened like a stray squirrel meandering onto an eight lane freeway.
On the other hand, Jesus might simply have meant that those are first in the world (leaders, military heroes, product spokespeople, Paris Hilton, etc.) will be last with respect to realizing the Kingdom of Heaven (because they've never turned within - most of them don't even know there is a "within") - and that the last (the poor, the meek, the humble, the AYPers, the mystics, etc. ;-) ) in terms of the world, will be first in the Kingdom of Heaven - because they had the good fortune to learn that turning within is (literally) "where it's at".
Or, I could be entirely and utterly wrong in both cases.
"Ya just never know ...."
[:o)]
[8D]
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
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Hi Kirtanman,
Thanks for doing the research.
quote:
If you Google the words seven, seals and chakras (I remembered something about the Seven Seals referring to the Chakras, at least in some peoples' belief -- and so, "Googled accordingly ) ... you will find a whole lotta info, much of it involving (alleged) ascended masters and/or their (purported) Earthly channels.
As far as I can tell, the seven seals seems to be one of those enigmatic phrases, where it means different things for different people. If you type "seven seals chakras"into google, you will get a very different explanation than if you type "seven seals bible codes"for example, or "seven seals lost world of Atlantis"[:)]. But at least whatever we get... its pretty amazing[8D].
I was interested to see if there was an official (?) Christian explanation for the referance to the seven seals in the bible as the Christians do not generally ferer to the Chakras, or the spine as a spiritual entity, or to many things that seem to happen to most people who are on the spiritual path. Pretty amazing really when you think about it.
quote:
The Last Shall Be First, Etc. Etc.
I have no clue.
My personal hypothesis is:
Jesus was messing with us.
Having some insight as to the workings of the human ego, and its attendant neurophysiological and psychological support systems, the teacher known in the West as Jesus Christ tossed out the statement in question, as a koan-like inquiry tool.
People will ask, discuss, debate, theorize, etc. etc. etc. about what he meant, what he could have meant, what he must have meant, and so on and so forth ... until a blessed moment occurs, in which all of one's related mental processing goes "Urk!" - and figuratively speaking, the wheels come flying off the bus (any mental processes which may have been sorta linear before the wheel-flying, are now in a state of ... "Urk!").
[:D] Love it. [:D]
So Jesus was a zen master? I certainly havn't ruled this option out!
Christi
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WOW! I am amazed and somewhat amused that this thread continues to discuss Christian eschatology from the perspective of nearly every known source of interpretation except actual Christian apocalyptic interpretation. What a hoot! [:D]
To me, many of the posts on this thread imply either subtle undertones of or overt expressions of anti-Christian sentiment which assumes that anything Christian can't possibly have any validity, even in regards to specifically Christian topics. [V] Only non-Christian swamis, gnostics, theosophists, kabbalists, et al, have the correct interpretations of these topics, right? [xx(] I wonder how many of you have ever actually read "The Apocalypse of St. John the Divine"...i.e. "The Book of Revelation"[?] [:I]
From a strictly Christian perspective, six popular exegetical methods of apocalyptic biblical interpretaion have found substantial followings. The first of these is the Preterist view, which believes that the prophecies of Revelation were all fulfilled in the 1st Century AD, culminating in the Roman destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD, thereby inaugurating God's Kingdom on Earth.
The second is the Futurist view, which believes that the prophecies of Revelation will be fulfilled at some time in the future prior to the Second Coming of Christ, immediately preceded by the Great Tribulation, a seven year period of Christian persecution, and the Rapture, whereby all true Christians will be strengthened, purified, and taken from the Earth to be spared the "time of God's wrath" before returning to the Earth as part of God's Kingdom.
The third method is the Historic view, which sees apocalyptic prophecies as spanning the time period between the end of the 1st Century AD to the Second Coming of Christ, manifested via documented historical events such as the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, followed by a divided Europe in the West, the rise of Muslim dominance in the East, and the gradual disintegration of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire, all of which have already come to pass. The Historic interpretations tend to be millenialistic, based on the belief that a Golden Age of a Thousand Years will manifest as a Paradise on Earth, ruled by Christ after His Second Coming, prior to the Final Judgement and subsequent Eternal State, as they believe is implied in Revelation 20:1-6.
The fourth method is the Spiritualist or Esoteric view, which interprets the apocalyptic prophecies as eternal spiritual truths which are manifested repeatedly throughout human history by the Grace of God's Divine Providence for the sake of a spiritually bankrupt mankind. The prophecies are not viewed as actual historical events, and are therefore not considered predictive in any way either.
The fifth method is the Anglican view, which sees the Book of Revelation as inspirational religious literature that uses symbolic imagery to provide hope for Christians who were or still are persecuted for their beliefs, so they may know that their Faith will ultimately be rewarded by God. Simultaneously, Revelation serves as a warning to non-Christians of impending judgement.
The sixth and oldest Christian view of escatological events is the Greek/Eastern Orthodox method. Orthodox Christianity perceives that the apocalyptic prophecies of the Book of Revelation describe contemporary events common to every era of history, and that current events foreshadow future occurances. However, no attempt is made to predict current events through divination of the prophecies in any way.
Instead, the contents of the text of Revelation is seen as a simple but profound warning to all humanity regarding spiritual and moral preparedness. Again, the symbology of the text is not used as a mystical or magical cipher for esoteric analysis separated from its original context, since the simple message of St.John is quickly and easily obscured intellectually by adding layers of interpretive conjecture.
The REVELATION MESSAGE has essentially always been one that says "MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS, AWAKE AND PREPARE YOURSELF SPIRITUALLY, FOR IT IS MUCH LATER THAN YOU THINK!" [:0]
Please note that the author of the Book of Revelation, St. John the Divine, is unique among New Testament writers in a number of ways. (1) He was one of the original Apostles of Jesus; (2) He was the only Apostle who didn't suffer a violent martyr's death, living to 120 years of age, believed by his contemporaries to be his love reward for being the only Apostle who didn't abandon Jesus during His interrogation, torture, and crucifixion; (3) He was the personal guardian and caretaker of the elderly Mary, Blessed Mother of Jesus, until her death, by Jesus's personal request from the cross; and (4) He was an Orthodox Christian Elder of incomparable status among the earliest Christians, because of the above mentioned facts, yet John rejected all attempts to make him a Patriarch, a Bishop, or other Church leader throughout his lifetime, preferring instead to merely write and speak of his close, personal relationship with Jesus, and of his personal spiritual experience in practicing the Teachings of Jesus. As a result, most of what Greek Orthodox Eastern Christianity teaches regarding his works was initially received directly from St. John himself, and retained through Apostolic Succession to the present time.[8D]
Since the ancient Hebrew and Greek alphabets lack separate characters for numbers, alphabet letters in both languages are also used as numbers, with each letter having an assigned numerical value. For example, the Hebrew letter equivalent of the English letter "w" is "vav" or "waw", with a numerical value of "6", an imperfect or incomplete material, earthly number....in contrast to the spiritually complete and perfect, Divine number of "7".
Thus, the number "666" represents the ultimate imperfection of man in body, mind, and soul, and the ultimate imperfection of all things physical, material and earthly....like the World Wide Web..."www" (666)[:D] LOL..., whereas the number "777" represents God and all spiritual things Divinely perfected.[8D]
As such, some have interpreted the Opening of the 7 Seals of Revelation as breaking down the physical and mental barriers to perfection of the soul and the subsequent open illumination of one's spiritual consciousness. In Eastern Christianity, this is accomplished by completely opening all the doors of physical, mental, and spiritual perception through contemplative prayer and meditation in order to fully discern God's Presence in our lives...thereby merging with God in perfect At-One-ment. In this way, Body, Mind and Soul unite with God once again in complete synchronicity of the five physical senses, the single minded intellect, and the individual soul to form the unsealed equation....5+1+1=ONE! Novel concept, eh? [;)]
Doc
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Glad to have you back, Doc! You've been missed!
[:)]
Thank you, for sharing your wisdom concerning the number 7. Bahai's consider the number 9 the most complete number, since it incorporates the 9 Major Religions and also for this reason:
quote:
Number nine (9) is the last number and it is the greatest number. Number ten (10) is simply the continuation of the number one (1) because number 10 is 1 and 100 is 1. Place the units up to 10 and we simply return to the number 1, but they will be ended at 9. One cannot find any number greater than 9 written in one digit, and of all numbers it is the highest. Also, in the tens 90 is the highest, and in the hundreds 900 is the highest. Then see if you can find any number greater than 9 to be written. In a digit. All other numbers are simply a repetition of other digits. So number 9 is the highest, and from it all other numbers are made. Write all the digits up to the number 9. Now, through adding 0 one can reach any number one likes. It simply originates from number 1 to 9. For example, the calculation of the number of the word "Báb" is number 5, and Bahá is 9. Now, if you multiply 9 by 5 you have 45. Now 45 is the Arabic numerical value of the word Adam.
As Adam is the Father of humanity, and means the real man, therefore the product of the Báb and Bahá is equal to the number Adam. There is no great difference between the Greatest Name and the name of Adam. In their nature they are one. (The digits of 45 added equal 9.) Also, 1 plus 2 equals 3; 3 plus 3 equals 6; 6 plus 4 equals 10; 10 plus 5 equals 15; 15 is the number of Eve. By the physical marriage of Adam and Eve the race originated, and by the appearance of the Manifestation (Bahá’u’lláh) and the Báb, the Spiritual Generation had its origin. Therefore there is great knowledge and understanding when the two names are made into one, because if you add from 1 to 9 consecutively, the result is equal to the number of Bahá and the Báb multiplied together, which equals 45, and it is equal to the number of Adam; and this is the wisdom in it. The name of God which Christ gave to His disciples was the Name of the Kingdom of Bahá’u’lláh. It was the same spiritually, but it was a Name which was never pronounced. All the Bible was written for Bahá’u’lláh. Everywhere, “Lord of Hosts” refers to the Manifestation.
The highest expression of the life of man on this planet in this age and many ages to come is Celestial: that is, to live and act in accord with the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh and to be steadfast in the love of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’. The principles of the Religion of the Blessed Perfection adorn the spirit with the highest attributes of the Kingdom of ‘Abhá, illumine the heart with the Sun of the love of God, make him a servant of the world of humanity, a standard-bearer of Universal Peace, and an orb shining from the heaven of righteousness.
http://bahai-library.org/pilgrims/brittingham.html
[:)][:)][:)]
VIL
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Hi VIL!
Interesting post. Thanks for sharing it. [:)]
The Orthodox Christian perspective views the primary odd number digits...1, 3, 5, 7, and 9...as Divine or Spiritual numbers, while the primary even number digits...2, 4, 6, 8, and 10...are considered material or physical numbers.
As such, it is believed that there is only One God (1), Who is of One Essence, the One Divine Source of All That Is, and to Whom All return ultimately.
God manifests Himself in Three Persons (3): as Father (The Divine Mind or Divine Consciousness of Creative Thought)...as Son (The Divine Word of Creative Manifestation and Holy Wisdom)...and as Holy Spirit (The Unifying Spirit of God's Personal Presence, Power, and Consciousness in all, everywhere, at all times, unto the ages of ages).
Five (5) represents the balanced equilibrium of the Divine between the Self-Sustaining, Self-Manifesting, Eternally Existent "I AM", One God, without a second or any need of another, and the Divinely created existence of All That Is, which emanates from God.
Seven (7) represents the Number of Completion in God's Creative Manifestation, as in the Seven Days or Stages of the Original Creation, and other processes of Divine Manifestation such as the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Seven Sacred Mysteries, the Seven Holy Hours of the Divine Office, the Opening of Seven Seals and the Sounding of Seven Trumpets in the Book of Revelation, and so forth. [:)]
Nine (9) is the highest number of God's Personal Expression as the Beginning and the End of All, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega. This is because the number Nine (9) is the only number that can be multiplied by any number, however large, and will always produce a resultant number whose individual digits will always add up to or reduce to the single digit number of nine again. For example, 2x9=18>1+8=9; 3x9=27>2+7=9; 4x9=36>3+6=9; and so forth to infinity. No matter how large the number multiplied by nine, the result of the equation will always add up in this way to the single digit nine (9). The number nine is unique in this regard, and resonates to the highest spiritual vibration of all numbers, since God alone emanates from and returns unto Himself in this same way. [8D]
Thus, One God is the source of All That Is (1) and to which all returns (9), so truly "the first shall be last and the last shall be first", beginning and ending in God..."I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA". Orthodox believe that this is why the Divine Word of Holy Wisdom can be found as Universal Truth expressed similarly in many different religious or spiritual traditions worldwide throughout the history of mankind.[8D]
Doc
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Great post, Doc:
[:)][:)][:)]
VIL
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Thanks, VIL!
I sincerely appreciate your continuing positive feedback.[8D]
Warm regards ~
Doc
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quote:
Doc: Thanks, VIL!
I sincerely appreciate your continuing positive feedback.
Warm regards ~
Doc
[:)]
VIL
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quote:
WOW! I am amazed and somewhat amused that this thread continues to discuss Christian eschatology from the perspective of nearly every known source of interpretation except actual Christian apocalyptic interpretation. What a hoot!
To me, many of the posts on this thread imply either subtle undertones of or overt expressions of anti-Christian sentiment which assumes that anything Christian can't possibly have any validity, even in regards to specifically Christian topics. Only non-Christian swamis, gnostics, theosophists, kabbalists, et al, have the correct interpretations of these topics, right? I wonder how many of you have ever actually read "The Apocalypse of St. John the Divine"...i.e. "The Book of Revelation"
Hi Doc,
Thanks for the reply. I don’t think it’s anti-Christian to take an eclectic approach to the study of the bible. And I don’t think anyone is not interested in the orthodox Christian interpretation of ecclesiastical works. Personally I find your posts very interesting and informative – so many thanks for that.[:)]
Actually in my last post to Kirtanman I specifically said that I was interested in trying to understand the official Christian interpretation of the seven seals as the Lost City of Atlantis approach doesn’t quite sit right with me. I met a man a couple of weeks ago who told me that he had broken the seventh seal using scrabble pieces! I’m not joking. And he wasn’t joking either. He has written two books about it and has his own website.
No, I haven’t read the book of revelations, although I have tried to several times. I actually wonder if anyone has read it. Of course many people will have read the words. But reading the words without actually understanding the meaning that the words hold or the symbolism portrayed by the words can hardly count as having read something. It would seem that given the number of different interpretations of this book by Christians, that most Christians don’t understand what it is getting at, and are kind of groping in the dark.
quote:
The sixth and oldest Christian view of escatological events is the Greek/Eastern Orthodox method. Orthodox Christianity perceives that the apocalyptic prophecies of the Book of Revelation describe contemporary events common to every era of history, and that current events foreshadow future occurances. However, no attempt is made to predict current events through divination of the prophecies in any way.
I assume that as you are of the Eastern Orthodox tradition, that you therefore hold to option six… that the book of Revelations portrays a continual state of affairs, applicable in any current situation.
quote:
As such, some have interpreted the Opening of the 7 Seals of Revelation as breaking down the physical and mental barriers to perfection of the soul and the subsequent open illumination of one's spiritual consciousness. In Eastern Christianity, this is accomplished by completely opening all the doors of physical, mental, and spiritual perception through contemplative prayer and meditation in order to fully discern God's Presence in our lives...thereby merging with God in perfect At-One-ment.
This is interesting. My intuition would lead towards this interpretation of the seven seals, rather than the chakra explanation, or the bible code stuff. After all why would anyone call a charka a seal? It doesn’t make much sense. Vortex maybe, or wheel, or portal, spiral, opening, energetic convergence, anything really but not seal.
I assume that the dissolution of the physical into the vital would be the breaking of the first seal; the dissolution of the vital into the mental would be the breaking of the second seal, and so on up to the level of Pure Divine Consciousness (the Atmic, the seventh realm of being). It can’t just be seven seals because seven is a holy number, after all, 3 is a holy number, and so are eleven and thirteen.
I assume also that this (the breaking of the seven seals) is the opposite process of Genesis, the creation of the world in seven days? The seven days thing doesn’t make much sense otherwise. Is this how you see it?
And whilst you are being so helpful, do you know why Christians don’t talk about chakras? Everything else is there, they shake, they experience the Spirit of God moving through them, they see lights, visions, speak in tongues, they talk about rods, staffs, pillars and columns, snakes and serpants, even fire, but if you mention the word chakra to them, they think you are part of some weird demonic cult and run a mile. They must experience the opening of the chakras during prayer, so why the big denial thing?
And one more thing Doc, what did Jesus mean by the “first shall be the last and the last shall be the first?” Was he just talking about the number 9, or is there something deeper going on?
Thanks for all your help.
Christi
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Dear Christi:
Of course, there is nothing wrong with using an eclectic approach to Bible study, per se. There is a strong probability, however, that drawing upon many divergent and often opposing sources of information and interpretation will inevitably lead to some degree of confusion about it all. This has been clearly demonstrated even in the course of this thread, IMO.
Thus, Eastern Orthodox Christianity is not opposed to researching all available resources of such information or interpretation, but merely cautions Orthodox Faithful to weigh the eclectic material so accessed in the Light of Orthodox Theology established by the Ecumenical Councils of the early centuries, and thereafter maintained and transmitted in Holy Tradition through legitimate Apostolic Succession to the present time. In other words, that which was thoroughly defined by and unanimously accepted as correct belief (orthodoxis) and correct practice (orthopraxis) by those who were blessed with the closest personal relationships with Jesus and His Personal Teaching among them, always holds far more authority than the singular opinions of those who are not in harmony with Holy Tradition. [^]
The vast number of alternative interpretations of Holy Scripture seen today are mostly the offspring of Western Fundamentalist Protestant Christianity, and diverse non-Christian sources. Most of these sources, both Christian and non-Christian alike, totally ignore the theology of the original Eastern Christianity altogether! [V]
Interestingly, Greek Orthodox Christianity has always been very much an Eastern Religion. As such, it bears many similarities to other Religions of the Near East and Far East, unlike Western Christianity in general or Protestant Christianity in particular. Orthodoxy views the various Western Christian Churches to have either added erroneous dogma to their official theology, notably as witnessed in the Roman Catholic Tradition of the past three centuries, or to have edited and deleted too many core tenets of the original Christianity theology, as witnessed in all of the Protestant Traditions. Each denomination in the latter group retains at least one of the core original beliefs, but none of these denominations retain the fullness of the original theology as established by the Early Church Fathers in the Ecumenical Councils.
The basic elements of Eastern Orthodox Christian belief and practice usually feel more comfortable to those with previous backgrounds in other Eastern Spiritual Traditions, and easily resonate as Divine Truth and Holy Wisdom in the hearts and minds of such individuals more than the basic elements of most Western Christian Churches do. This is particularly true for Jewish Faithful in particular since the Jewish leaders of early Christianity viewed the Teachings of Christ as the fulfillment of their Jewish Faith, not as a new and separate religion, and thus retained the major elements of Jewish Theology and of the Jewish Liturgical Rites and Ceremonies of Synagogue Worship.
All major Christian Church Organizations, however, agree that Spiritual Salvation comes only by the Grace of God's Infinite Love, Compassion and Mercy for mankind. This can be assisted through a life centered on the Lord Jesus, and grounded in His Teachings, but is never secured solely through human efforts, since nobody has ever apparently been able to follow the Ten Commandments. Salvation is also never solely dependent upon church membership. However, a loving, righteous life based on Jesus's Teaching, and the spiritual fellowship of other like minded individuals can be tremendously supportive in generating greater inner receptivity to the Presence and Manifestation of God's Grace and the attendant Blessings of Divine Providence.
In Eastern Christianity, this is experienced in the Belief and Practice of Orthodoxy...One God, One Church, One Way. In Western Christianity, religious experience is multiplied in the beliefs and practices of many churches, many variations of belief, and many methods of practice and worship, ranging from the major church denominations to the eclectic, individual 'church of me' founded by somebody with a mail-order Doctor of Divinity Degree (D.D.)! [:I]
The question of Chakras not being mentioned or employed in Christian Tradition is simply due to the fact that Jesus did not present His Teachings with any reference to chakras or other non-Jewish points of reference. His audience was almost exclusively a devout Jewish following, who related to all matters of religion and spirituality through familiar Jewish theology, liturgical language, spiritual symbology, and the generally accepted scriptural interpretation of those days. As such, yogic terminology and practices weren't even on the radar screen, and would have been totally unfamiliar to nearly everyone who heard Christ speak.
On the other hand, however, according to the Holy Tradition of Orthodox Apostolic Succession, such an audience understood very clearly that when Jesus said "I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA", that the "I AM" was in direct reference to the forbidden Name of God given to Moses in the Torah Scriptures, Exodus 3:13-15. They would also have clearly understood in the context of this statement, as in saying on another occaision..."The first shall be last and the last shall be first", that Jesus was reminding all present to remember that all things come from God (alpha/first) and ultimately return to God (omega/last). This was also intended to remind all present to begin (alpha) and end (omega) each day by lifting up their arms and hands toward God in reverent prayer, dedicating all thoughts, all words, and all actions each day to the praise, honor and glory of God, and to give thanks unto God for the blessings bestowed upon them each day.[8D]
In speaking the Divine Name, which was normally reserved for use by the Temple High Priests during Liturigical Rituals and Ceremonies on rare occaisions, it was additionally understood by most of those present that Jesus was personally identifying Himself with the Holy One of Israel, the Lord of Hosts, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This was essentially a claim to Divinity which many present would have viewed as blasphemous, accept for the fact that this particular person, Jesus (Yeshua), exuded a personal spiritual presence of such power and magnitude, spoke with such wisdom and authority, and manifesteded such divinely miraculous demonstrations.[:0] It had to have been awesomely impressive to have spiritually influenced so many individuals so profoundly for so many centuries. [;)]
Doc
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Hi Doc,
Thanks for the very informative reply.
quote:
Thus, Eastern Orthodox Christianity is not opposed to researching all available resources of such information or interpretation, but merely cautions Orthodox Faithful to weigh the eclectic material so accessed in the Light of Orthodox Theology established by the Ecumenical Councils of the early centuries, and thereafter maintained and transmitted in Holy Tradition through legitimate Apostolic Succession to the present time. In other words, that which was thoroughly defined by and unanimously accepted as correct belief (orthodoxis) and correct practice (orthopraxis) by those who were blessed with the closest personal relationships with Jesus and His Personal Teaching among them, always holds far more authority than the singular opinions of those who are not in harmony with Holy Tradition.
Well... certainly what came out of the councils was unanimously agreed upon by all those that were not exiled from the councils, excommunicated and who had all their scriptures burned![}:)] I think in this day and age we would not necessarily use the word "unanimous" to describe that kind of agreement![:D]
And.. some of these councils (and possibly the most influential one in terms of shaping the future of Christianity), took place hundreds of years after the death of Jesus, so the people involved could hardly have been hanging on the every word of Christ in person. Unless people lived for three of four hundred years in those days? As for legitimate apostolic succession, the passing of teachings from Master to disciple, I think anyone who has played Chinese whispers will know what a source of folly and confusion this can be. Please don't think me impertinent, I am just trying to point out that if we are shining the light of reason on the situation, someone who is not of the Orthodox faithful, such as myself, could have many reasons to believe that there are potentially huge areas where confusion could have arisen in the history of all Christian churches, east or west.
That being said, I would agree with you that the eastern Orthodox Christian tradition may well represent the closest representation that we can find today to the original Christian teachings. The only other contender IMO would be the Gnostic Christian tradition. I also find that these two Christian traditions are the most accessible to someone with an Eastern background in spirituality.
quote:
On the other hand, however, according to the Holy Tradition of Orthodox Apostolic Succession, such an audience understood very clearly that when Jesus said "I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA", that the "I AM" was in direct reference to the forbidden Name of God given to Moses in the Torah Scriptures, Exodus 3:13-15. They would also have clearly understood in the context of this statement, as in saying on another occasion..."The first shall be last and the last shall be first", that Jesus was reminding all present to remember that all things come from God (alpha/first) and ultimately return to God (omega/last). This was also intended to remind all present to begin (alpha) and end (omega) each day by lifting up their arms and hands toward God in reverent prayer, dedicating all thoughts, all words, and all actions each day to the praise, honor and glory of God, and to give thanks unto God for the blessings bestowed upon them each day.
Thanks for that... this makes a lot of sense.
One more question, I hope you don't mind, what are the "wheels within wheels" then?
Christi
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Christi said:
<Clipped>
Christi, I think you should clip that out as being politically provocative, funny though it might be....
I appreciate your post, though.
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi:
"Well... certainly what came out of the councils was unanimously agreed upon by all those that were not exiled from the councils, excommunicated and who had all their scriptures burned![}:)] I think in this day and age we would not necessarily use the word "unanimous" to describe that kind of agreement![:D]"
Dear Christi:
With all due respect for your personal opinion, I am afraid that your knowledge of Church History is a bit "fuzzy", to say the least. To believe that a supposedly arbitrary and unfair process was employed in the formation of the original Orthodox Christian Doctrine, and in the selection of texts to be included in the official list of New Testament Holy Scriptures quite simply is NOT TRUE, although it is an opinion shared by many, both Christian and non-Christian alike, who are unfamiliar with authentic Christian Church History and Doctrine, and therefore believe that it is theologically acceptable and philosophically desirable to draw upon an eclectic variety of works from any and all sources.
Without question, certain books and texts that were considered for inclusion did not make the official canonical list, by a majority consensus of both the clergy and the laity alike. A very small number of these texts were rejected outright as being overtly spurious works which simply did not harmonize either theologically or historically with the vast majority of other texts and generally accepted Articles of Faith among Christian communities everywhere, prior to Formal Proclamation of these in the Seven Ecumenical Councils.
The vast majority of texts which were not included in the canonical list of scriptures, however, were certainly not banned or burned [:p], and continued to be used as deutero-canonical or apocryphal works very well suited for private, personal devotional and inspirational use, as they still are among Orthodox Christian Faithful even today.[;)] The major works that fall into this category have always been included in Orthodox Bibles, and many other Bibles as well nowadays, usually identified as Holy Bible with Apocrypha.
Other Deutero-Canonical or Apocryphal Works were excluded because they had been used primarily as Jewish Liturgical Texts only by the High Priests of the Temple in Jerusalem, were generally unfamiliar to others, and were never included in the official list of Jewish Canonical Scriptures for Synagogue, and still are not. [:)]
Ecumenical Councils
"At an Ecumenical Council, the bishops of the entire Church recognize what the truth is and proclaim it. The proclamation is then verified by the agreement of the whole Christian people. Both the bishop's recognition and the people's verification, is believed to be inspired by God.
The whole people of God—bishops, clergy, and laity together—are the guardian of the faith. The bishop is the divinely appointed teacher of the faith. By this, bishops, clergy, or the laity can call and participate in a council, but only the bishops can, by their consensus, come up with the proclamation of the council.
The truth of the proclamation of the council is the only criterion of infallibility. The Spirit of Truth must be present at the council. To the Orthodox, the Church is the miracle of the presence of God among men. Infallibility is not materialized in the letter of Scripture, or in the person of a Pope, but in God, living mysteriously in the Church. If the Church does not see truth in the proclamation of a council, the council will not be called ecumenical by the Church."
Perhaps the following links will be some interest, and further inform you regarding these Councils. [:)]
http://home.it.net.au/~jgrapsas/pages/Ecumenical_Councils.htm
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-14/TOC.htm
Light and Love to All ~
Doc
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I understand Revelation has a book that describes both the processes of the development and death of the Earth, and in Man.
The Apocalypse of Saint John is a book sealed with seven seals. The book is Man itself. No one except the Lamb, the Innermost which lies within us, can open this book and remove the Seven Seals.
Currently, our mind, our house, our lives, is sealed with seven seals that does not permit the light to shine, that does not allow love to freely be received and given, that does not allow the "new" to be received without judgment, labeling, and the processes of identification, fascination and psychological sleep.
The seven churches are seven nerve centers in the spinal column. These are, of course, the chakras.
Every creation is related to numbers.
The two that show up the most are 3 and 7.
Three is the number of creation. There are always three forces present in the creation of anything, even a thought: thesis, anti-thesis, and synthesis, for example.. the three primary forces of the universe: +, -, and neutral... man, woman, and sexuality...
Seven, as it has been stated, is a number of completion. Seven is the number of organization. So, everything is created by the 3, and organized by the 7: 7 days of creation, 7 colors, 7 tones, etc., etc.
There are 7 Thrones, or Seven Primary Elohim (Logoic Arch-Angels) that direct and "father" the millions of souls via the "Seven Rays" of Daath.
The 12 Tribes are the 12 Zodiacal Houses.
The 24 Elders are those intelligent regents of the 12 Tribes, 2 for each.
Let us now go a little more in depth. Let us quote the Book, with comments in brackets:
And I saw [with the spiritual inner-sight of the awakened Eye of Shiva] in in the right hand [solar force of pingala] of him that sat on the throne [spinal column] a book written within and on the backside [spinal column], sealed with seven seals [via the Seven Logoi].
Remember, friends, that the throne of god in all the seven bodies is the spinal column. It is obvious that the spinal column is the center of all the nervous systems. Within the spinal column the fire of the Holy Spirit, the Kundalini, rises. When that Fire rises, that is the Intelligence of God (Binah in Kabbalah) that is transforming from a potential state to an actualized state, a self-realized state. This is why the spinal column is quite literally the "throne" of God.
And I saw [with the spiritual vision] a strong angel [from Yesod] proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? [Who has the heart of a dove and the wisdom of a serpent to ascend the Kundalini?]
And no [heavenly] man in heaven, nor [any earthly man] in earth, neither under the earth [in Klipoth, the souls in Hell], was able to open the book, neither to look [with their degenerated inner spiritual vision of the third eye] thereon.
The strength ALWAYS comes through Yesod, the "foundation." Remember that Yesod is the strength that manifests from Binah, El-Shaddai, the "Almighty God," the Holy Spirit! That Strong Angel is the same Cherub who guards the "Garden of Eden". That Cherub has a flaming sword that blocks the entrance to those unworthy.
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Behold, the Lion [sign of Leo, the King Astrological House, which is the Regent of the Sun] of the tribe of Judah [the Ain Soph Aur or the Light of Leo, the heart or core of any Solar System], the Root of David [and any Solar King, meaning, the Power of any Reincarnated Malachim], has prevailed to open [the chakras in each of your Seven Solar Bodies or] the [human] book, and to loose [the light force of wisdom of Christ from the mysteries of] the seven [Logoic] seals thereof.
The Ain Soph Air is the "Limitless Light", the Light of the World, in other words, in Christian terms: Christ.
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Philip:
Your posts represent some of the most outrageously eclectic material on these topics that I have ever read. You presume to interpret and explain Christian subject matter and terminology, yet your material isn't really Christian. You also make interpretive references to Kabbalah subject matter and terminology, but your material isn't really Kabbalah, and you make interpretive references to Hindu and Yogic subject matter and terminology, but your material isn't really these either. [:I]
In my humble opinion, that leaves your information neither here nor there, in a "no man's land" which these Traditions never shared as common ground in the way that you have presented their relationship with one another. Your so-called 'gnostic' material looks to me like a "Jack of all trades, but master of none" shotgun approach to theology and spiritual philosophy. [8]
Although the Hindu and Yogic material and terminology you make references to has been in use within those Traditions since ancient times, they certainly were never a part of Christian Tradition in any way. Additionally, the Kabbalah was always based solely on the Torah and Old Testament Scriptures, and used exclusively in regards to mystical interpretation of same, never in correlation to Chrisitan or Hindu Theology and Spirituality.
Most interesting, however, is the fact that both the Kabbalah material and terminology you so frequently refer to, and the Gnostic use of Kabbalah ideas, as we see today, and in the way that you employ them, didn't even exist as formally structured Traditions until the Middle Ages. As such, neither was a part of anything Christian, secret or otherwise, in the Early Church. Thus, such claims totally defy historic credibility, IMO. [:p]
Perhaps the following material will be informative to readers here in this regard:
Kabbalah
{kab - uh - lah'}
General Information
Kabbalah, the Hebrew word for tradition, originally designated the legal tradition of Judaism, but it was later applied to the Jewish mystical tradition, especially the system of esoteric mystical speculation and practice that developed during the 12th and 13th centuries. The speculative aspects of Kabbalah (Kabbalah iyyunit) were stressed in southern European schools; more practical, socioethical, and sometimes magical themes (Kabbalah maasit) were emphasized in northern European circles. Kabbalistic interest, at first confined to a select few, became the preoccupation of large numbers of Jews following their expulsion from Spain (1492) and Portugal (1495). The teachings of Kabbalah, as developed by the visionary Isaac ben Solomon Luria, are credited with giving rise to the Sabbatean movement led by Sabbatai Zevi.
Like every other Jewish religious expression, Kabbalah was based on the Old Testament revelation. The revealed text was interpreted with the aid of various hermeneutic techniques. Of the many methods available, the Kabbalists most frequently used three forms of letter and number symbolism: gematria, notarikon, and temurah.
BELIEVE
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The Kabbalists developed distinctive doctrines of creation and of redemption. Their doctrine of creation was built on a theory of emanations and asserted that the world derived from the transcendent and unknowable God (En Soph) through a series of increasingly material manifestations (sephirot). The manifestations were repeated, in some versions of Kabbalah, in four interlocking series or "worlds": emanation (atzilut), creation (beriah), formation (yetzirah), and action or making (assiyah). By the sin of Adam and the later sins of humankind, the immanent aspect of God, or the Shekhinah (divine presence), was exiled in the final sephirah, malkhut (kingdom). The sexual imagery of Kabbalah treats Shekhinah (the word is feminine in gender) as the female aspect of divinity; it symbolically expresses the idea of the restoration of harmony (tikkun) as the reunion of the male and female aspects of the divine, that is, as the reunion of divine transcendence and immanence.
The classic document of the Kabbalistic tradition, the Zohar, was compiled by Moses de Leon about 1290. A more systematic presentation of the basic doctrine is contained in Moses Cordovero's Pardes rimmonim (Garden of Pomegranates, 1548). Kabbalah was a major influence in the development of Hasidism and still has adherents among Hasidic Jews.
Joseph L Blau
Kabbalah
Advanced Information
(Heb. qabal, "to receive, tradition"). An esoteric mystic lore of Judaism, passed as secret doctrine to only the chosen few. Its origin is lost in antiquity, but one sees traces of ancient Jewish apocalyptic, talmudic, and midrashic literature and non Jewish sources of Gnosticism and Neoplatonism in Kabbalah. Its first systematic development occurred among the Babylonian Jewish Gaonim scholars (600 - 1000 AD). As the Babylonian center waned, other areas became prominent, Italy, Spain, southern France, and Germany, and the development continued in the 1100s and 1200s. The most prominent book of Kabbalah is the Zohar, which appeared in 1300 under Moses de Leon. Once this material was recorded, everyone was able to study it. Further development occurred in the sixteenth century in Safed, Israel, under Isaac Luria, who initiated a distinctive emphasis of redemption and messianism. Rabbis at times denounced this form of study as so much speculation that would only lead Jewish people away from mainline Judaism's three great emphases: repentance, prayer, and good deeds to man and God.
Christians in the Middle Ages also became interested in Kabbalah, e.g., Lully, Pico della Mirandela, and John Reuchlin. As with Jewish people, there was also a reaction among some Christians against sterile belief, and it was thought that Kabbalah was a valid corrective. Christians also studied this material to find verification of their mystical beliefs.
Kabbalah pictures God as being above all existence; through a series of ten emanations the world was created. The system is somewhat pantheistic since everything that exists has its place in God. Through good deeds a pious Jew supposedly affects the various emanations, ultimately affecting God on behalf of mankind.
Kabbalah includes reincarnation. The pure soul, once the body dies, will be present among the emanations who control the world. An impure soul must be reborn in another body, and the process continues until it has been made pure. Evil is only the negation of good, and in the Jewish setting evil is overcome through the three great emphases, along with strict adherence to the law.
What is most distinctive is the hermeneutical principle of finding hidden meanings in the texts of Scriptures. Human language in Scripture is examined not only allegorically and analogically, but also through the interpretation of words and letters according to their numerical equivalents, and by interchanging numerical equivalents new letters and words could be created, thereby allowing for new interpretations.
Kabbalah influenced Jewish messianic movements, principally Hasidism, which developed a joyful religious expression that avoided sterile legalism.
L Goldberg
(Elwell Evangelical Dictionary)
"Let there be Light." Genesis 1:3
Doc
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
Philip:
Your posts represent some of the most outrageously eclectic material on these topics that I have ever read. You presume to interpret and explain Christian subject matter and terminology, yet your material isn't really Christian. You also make interpretive references to Kabbalah subject matter and terminology, but your material isn't really Kabbalah, and you make interpretive references to Hindu and Yogic subject matter and terminology, but your material isn't really these either. [:I]
In my humble opinion, that leaves your information neither here nor there, in a "no man's land" which these Traditions never shared as common ground in the way that you have presented their relationship with one another. Your so-called 'gnostic' material looks to me like a "Jack of all trades, but master of none" shotgun approach to theology and spiritual philosophy. [8]
Although the Hindu and Yogic material and terminology you make references to has been in use within those Traditions since ancient times, they certainly were never a part of Christian Tradition in any way. Additionally, the Kabbalah was always based solely on the Torah and Old Testament Scriptures, and used exclusively in regards to mystical interpretation of same, never in correlation to Chrisitan or Hindu Theology and Spirituality.
Most interesting, however, is the fact that both the Kabbalah material and terminology you so frequently refer to, and the Gnostic use of Kabbalah ideas, as we see today, and in the way that you employ them, didn't even exist as formally structured Traditions until the Middle Ages. As such, neither was a part of anything Christian, secret or otherwise, in the Early Church. Thus, such claims totally defy historic credibility, IMO. [:p]
I appreciate your comments, and I believe your sentiments are held by many people. I understand that the material that I have presented is not in any way the view of both the leaders and henchmen of any religion. Yet, in my view, there does not exist a single tradition that has not degenerated into an almost unrecognizable state when compared to its original form. [:(]
To me, it is obvious, self-evident that all religious forms are the expression of the same cosmic truths. To me, from what I have studied, it is backed by libraries of evidence, and is directly verifiable, little by little, to those who take up the proper yogic techniques. [:)]
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Philip, you said:
"....in my view, there does not exist a single tradition that has not degenerated into an almost unrecognizable state when compared to its original form." [:(]
If you really believe this statement to be true, you either haven't looked very deeply into some of these traditions, IMO, or you are simply blinded by your own predjudices of value judgement and personal discrimination! [:I]
You also said:
"To me, it is obvious, self-evident that all religious forms are the expression of the same cosmic truths."
Although there is certainly a degree of truth in this statement, as I have also noted here previously, the intellectually complicated blend of your observations in this regard tends to obscure the common denominators that would likely reveal themselves in a more simplistic presentation of the material. [:)]
Additionally, using the terminology of one Tradition to explain and interpret other Traditions often confuses the issue, especially where separate terminology is normally used in each, because it is the concepts and ideas which find common ground with one another, not generally the terminology used to describe them. In these instances, more 'generic' words oftentimes serve better to "bridge the gap" between the individual Traditions being referenced or compared. [^] [;)]
Again, this is just the humble opinion of an old yogi who's been around the block a time or two so far. [;)] [:D]
Regards ~
Doc
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Hi Doc
quote:
With all due respect for your personal opinion, I am afraid that your knowledge of Church History is a bit "fuzzy", to say the least. To believe that a supposedly arbitrary and unfair process was employed in the formation of the original Orthodox Christian Doctrine, and in the selection of texts to be included in the official list of New Testament Holy Scriptures quite simply is NOT TRUE, although it is an opinion shared by many, both Christian and non-Christian alike, who are unfamiliar with authentic Christian Church History and Doctrine, and therefore believe that it is theologically acceptable and philosophically desirable to draw upon an eclectic variety of works from any and all sources.
I am well aware that there are "official" church accounts of history, which are often at odds with accounts written by historians who were alive at the time or who lived shortly after the events actually happened. Of course, which we choose to believe is a personal choice open to all of us, but I wouldn't use the word "fuzzy" to describe someone who chooses to believe the impartial historians' accounts of events, rather than an institution with a huge vested interest in re-writing history. And it isn't just a case of which books were included and which were not, but of the actual content and wording of those books that were included.
Of course we will never know the truth... unless a young shepherd boy stumbles across hundreds of ancient manuscripts from the time of Christ in the Qumran desert that were buried there in urns to try and save them from being burnt. [;)]
Christi
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi:
"I am well aware that there are "official" church accounts of history, which are often at odds with accounts written by historians who were alive at the time or who lived shortly after the events actually happened. Of course, which we choose to believe is a personal choice open to all of us, but I wouldn't use the word "fuzzy" to describe someone who chooses to believe the impartial historians' accounts of events, rather than an institution with a huge vested interest in re-writing history."
What a hoot! [:D] History obviously isn't your strong suit! [;)]
The Primitive Christian Church of the early centuries was subjected to constant persecution from the predominantly antagonistic, pagan culture and society within which it struggled to survive until the Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire in the 4th Century. [^]
To declare one's belief in Christianity during this period of time ALWAYS meant that one could expect to suffer discrimination, persecution, and even torture for declaring this belief. These Christians are known as Confessors of the Faith [:(], while those Christians who additionally shed their blood unto death are known as Martyrs in the Faith. [xx(] In fact, in those days, it was generally thought to be both probable and desirable to witness for Christ by suffering a martyr's death. [:0]
Who exactly do you think was an impartial historian during that time period? Give me their names and reference their writings! All non-Christian historians at that time were either Jews or Pagans who rejected Christian religious beliefs for one reason or another. As such, they most certainly had their own "vested interest" in writing their histories, namely to discredit the name and person of Jesus (Yeshua) in any way possible, to refute and condemn His Teachings in the form of organized Christianity, and to promote the eradication of those who declared themselves Christians through outright lies, slander, false accusations, legal entanglements, and whatever else might subject Christians to negative Roman scrutiny, legal sanctions, and eventual punishment. You may have heard about Christians 'entertaining' Roman audiences in ampitheaters everywhere as live prey for starving lions and tigers! [V]
These early Christians had little or no power to influence the historical record in any way except by their willingness to die for their Christian Faith, which impressed even their persecutors, and won more than a few converts, ultimately including even Emperors! [:)] People willingly die for a great many reasons including defense of family, personal property, and homeland, but do not willingly go to horrendous deaths in such great numbers for the sake of a lie.
Something in the message and teachings of Jesus cast a ray of spiritual light into the hearts and souls of each and every confessor and martyr, something which they treasured enough to die for, rather than recant and go free without harm or suffering! The same atmosphere existed for Christians in Russia under the Communist regime, with tens of thousands executed for their refusal to recant their Orthodox Christian Faith.[V]
Christi, you may never understand what that kind of Faith is all about, even though your name is already only one small 'i' away from Christ [:p], and you may never choose to embrace ANY belief with that degree of intense commitment. Nonetheless, it is exactly this spirit of love and zeal which shaped early Christianity and formed the foundation of official doctrinal beliefs that determined which books and texts should be included in the New Testament Scriptures, as Divinely Inspired with similar love and zeal for Christ and His Teachings. [8D]
Regardless of what any non-Christian historian has ever written, this IS a historical fact which many millions of people worldwide continue to be a witness for today...2,000 years later. [8D]
Love and Light to All ~
Doc
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Hi Doc,
quote:
What a hoot! History obviously isn't your strong suit!
You are right Doc, history isn't my strong suit, but then I never claimed it was.
For your information, Secundus of Ptolemais and Theonas of Marmarica were both Bishops sitting on the council of Nicea around 325 AD. They were both exiled by the council. Arius was exiled by Constantine along with some of his followers and his books were burned. Constantine ordered the destruction of all works composed by Arius on pain of death to any found holding them. Arius was later allowed to return, but by then of course the decisions of the council had been made and the church as we know it today had been formed.
I was under the impression that the Christian church had already accepted all this as historical fact, and did not dispute the historical evidence. As for historians, you could try Epiphanius, Athanasius, Sozomen or Socrates.
Don't worry about thanking me for helping you to better understand the history of Christianity.. it'll come in time[;)].
I am writing this just to point out than when I said that the decisions of the councils were unanimous after those who disagreed had been exiled and had their books burned, it is because that is what happened. I don’t think you should be so ready to laugh at people who are making a serious attempt to understand Christianity and the teachings of Jesus Christ, just because you don’t want to admit that a particular historical event happened, and that the formation of the Bible was not a cut and dry matter.
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Christi, you may never understand what that kind of Faith is all about, even though your name is already only one small 'i' away from Christ , and you may never choose to embrace ANY belief with that degree of intense commitment.
How do you know that I don't already? Doc, faith is something that goes much deeper than mere adherance to a particular creed or set of beliefs or religion. This is one of the problems we face in the world today, people don't know what real faith is. If we have real faith in God, then we will be ready to die for Him. This means to die to everything we think we know, everything we are attached to, our beliefs, our opinions, our religion, everything that keeps us seperate from God. This is real faith and it is something that is very rare to find in the world today.
So let me ask you another question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ was the only Son of God? And if so, why?
Philip, if you are still following I would be very interested to hear your views on this question as to whether Jesus Christ (Jeshua?) was the only son of God or not?
Christi
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Don't worry about thanking me for helping you to better understand the history of Christianity.. it'll come in time[;)].
So let me ask you another question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ was the only Son of God? And if so, why?
Dear Christi:
I admire your persistence...even if in error! [;)] When properly directed and employed, such persistence can indeed be a great aid on the Path to Self-Realization and Spiritual Illumination. [:)]
Before you become too smug about supposedly helping me to "better understand the history of Christianity", you would do well to research the matter a bit deeper. It's good to Google, but it wouldn't hurt to read beyond finding what you perceive to support your views, either! [:p]
You are absolutely correct in pointing out that certain individuals were ejected from the Council, five dissenting individuals who denied the Divinity of Christ, and their writings destroyed, out of more than 300 other Bishops in attendance who were in full agreement with one another on this issue, but do you know why? Do you even care to know why? Or is the main issue for you that this was somehow unfair, and that the views of these five should hold greater weight and influence in shaping official theology than the views of the 300+ majority? [V] Are you simply rooting for the 'underdogs'? [:D]
Please consider reading the actual documents created by the Ecumenical Council of Nicea, links to which I provided in a previous post on this thread, and check out the following as well.
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8062.asp
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-06/anf06-106.htm
As a Christian, I do in fact believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God because He said that He is, because He demonstrated that He is...unlike any other human ever has, and because His life and teachings have exerted a greater influence on mankind in general than any human life ever lived, IMO. [8D]
Regards to All ~
Doc
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Thanks Doc,
That sounds like very interesting info on nicea; don't have time to read them now, but will later.
My opinion differs on the status of Jesus, but I don't think that is important because I believe his teachings are the most important in western religions, and agree universally with eastern religions.
Do you have an opinion on why Jesus didn't write any of the bible, or instruct anybody else to?
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish:
"Do you have an opinion on why Jesus didn't write any of the bible, or instruct anybody else to?"
Hi Etherfish!
At the time when Jesus walked among people in Palestine and Judea, the vast majority of people were unable to read or write. Among the Jewish population, most of those who were literate were the cleric Levites, who served as the High Priests at the Temple in Jerusalem; the Rabbis, who officiated over the Liturgical Rites and Services in the Synagogues; and the Cantors, who served as chanters and readers for such services. To make their status even more exclusive in the perception of the common folks, Ancient Hebrew was used for most Holy Sacrifices, Sacred Liturgical Rites, and Divine Offices and Services. The common people of Palestine and Judea spoke primarily Aramaic, the predecessor of modern Arabic, not Hebrew as in ancient or modern Israel. Only the clerics, and a wealthy few were educated in reading or writing Hebrew at that time
I believe that this is why Jesus spoke publicly to disseminate His teachings, and encouraged His Apostles and Disciples to do likewise, rather than commiting His teachings to writing. The oral transmission of the teachings has always been a fundamental part of Christianity since then, following the example of Christ, in the form of public preaching, and through sermons and homilies presented in the churches.
The widespread illiteracy of these ancient peoples is another reason why the use of Religious Iconography took root in Eastern Orthodox Christianity. The scenes depicted on the icons allowed those who were illiterate to learn about the major events of the life of Jesus, and about other people, places and events who shaped the birth of Christianity. For these people it could be truly said that through the Holy Icons...."every picture tells a story".
Recording the teachings and stories in writing came much later, when it was more common for the general population to possess literacy, and when such large numbers of people expressed an interest in the Gospel Teachings of Christ that it became impractical to spread the Good News by word of mouth alone.
Doc
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Philip, if you are still following I would be very interested to hear your views on this question as to whether Jesus Christ (Jeshua?) was the only son of God or not?
Jesus is not the only son of God, according to my understanding of the Bible. A Son of God is someone - anyone - that has received or incarnated the Christ.
Here are some quotes from the Bible:
"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." - Genesis 6:2
"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." - Job 1:6
"He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:11-13
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." - John 10:33-38
I always give the quotes because, in reality, very few people have actually read the Bible. Yet, there is much wisdom within.
The CHRIST is the Son of God, the Only Begotten Son of God. YET, Christ is not a person. Christ is a FORCE, a FIRE, a LIGHT. Christ is not an individual, Christ is not a person, Christ is not a soul, Christ is not a "God", Christ is the Light of the World, the burning Fire that palpitates within the igneous particles of life. Christ is the Universal Spirit of Life.
Nevertheless, that Son can be incarnated in any individual who is prepared.
It is important to understand that Christ is beyond the soul and the spirit. It is beyond the "Buddha" or tathagata, the Being, the Atman, etc. Before one can incarnate Christ, one must first incarnate the Master, the Spirit, the Buddha... only then does one go even further than that, which the Christ, the Master of all the Masters, the Being of the Being.
So, someone who has merged with that fire has become one within that fire. Meaning, their individual Will is perfectly harmonized with Thy Will. When someone incarnated Christ, becoming a Son of God, they become a supra-individual. There is no ego, no will of the "I", no will of the self. It is a perfect individual expression of the collective will of that Intelligence we call God. This is what it means to be a supra-individual.
Therefore, when Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM," that was the Fire of Christ expressing itself through the Bodhisattva called Jesus.
Jesus was a Son of God, an individual expression of Christ, that taught the Doctrine of the Cosmic Christ. The Cosmic Christ spoke through him when he said, "I am the way the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me" because everyone who wishes to reach the Cosmic Common Eternal Father must incarnate the Christ, no matter what the name of it is. All the great prophets were Sons of God, yet they taught doctrines for the race of people that needed it. Every religion prior to Christianity was a religion for a particular people. Christianity was supposed to replace all the religions of the world, but that objective was sabotaged by a variety of causes. This is why Christianity is very particular, why it is supposed to be the doctrine of the Narrow Gate, the doctrine of Absolute Salvation, a highly elevated, superior, and subtle teaching that showed the way to reach the Father, through the Cosmic Christ. Being such a subtle and superior teaching makes it all the more easy to misunderstand it and to consciously or not remove or ignore that which is not understood. In my view, Christianity was not and is not simply a way to have a personal relationship with God via believing in miracles of the personality of Jesus, but the doctrine of the Way to incarnate Christ.
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Thanks Doc, It just doesn't make sense to me that if Jesus were God incarnate, and knew all the prophecies of the future, that he wouldn't have said something about the bible, as people call it the word of God, and he certainly would have known the impotance people would put on it for centuries to come.
However, if he was just a man raised to christhood as all men can eventually be, it makes sense he would not be concerned with 21st century christianity. i'm leaning toward the concept that christhood is something he achieved. After all, he said we could do everything he did and more.
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Thanks Philip; that makes a lot of sense.
I checked those passages in my bible by George M. Lamsa, translated from the original aramaic, which often clears up misunderstandings. The words are different, but the meaning remains the same as above.
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[:D] Please note the lower case 's' of 'sons' used in the scriptural quotes referring to mankind in general as "sons of God" vs. the Capital 'S' used in reference to Jesus as "Son of God".[;)] Please note also that Jesus made frequent references to the 'Bible'...i.e. the Old Testament Torah and other Holy Scriptures of Jewish Faith. The 'Bible' as we may think of it today, including the New Testament Scriptures based on Jesus's Teachings, were not put into writing until after His death and Resurrection, but were disseminated through oral transmission instead until this method became impossible to depend upon solely in meeting the needs of huge numbers of converts to Christianity.[:0]
Regarding Philip's scriptural quotes, according to Orthodox Christian theology, all are capable of Union with God, Henosis....and eventual Deification, Theosis, as an inevitable result of such Union, but only Jesus Christ, Yeshua ha-Mashiach, the Annointed One of God's Salvation, is innately Divine in Nature, or Consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit, One God in Three Persons, from the beginning!
All others must strive to achieve this Union and Deification as the perfect fulfillment of the "Kingdom of Heaven", through the manifestation of Unconditional Divine Love, which Jesus said was the summation of all the Jewish Law and the Prophets, and which therefore continues to be announced in the Good News of the Gospel Teachings. Jesus also said that Union between God and man cannot be achieved without a Mediator, Jesus Himself, Who is the Word Incarnated as flesh..."I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6). Thus, in and through the Son, Jesus, we become "sons of God". Incorporation into Christ is the only means to reach our supernatural end. The Holy Spirit facilitates and perfects this incorporation. In this regard, St. Irenaeus wrote: "Through the Holy Spirit one ascends to the Son, and through the Son to the Father." The redeeming action of Christ, therefore, through unifying power of Divine Love, constitutes the Alpha and the Omega, as well as the heart of Christian Spirituality. [8D]
Light and Love to All ~
Doc
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Hi Doc,
quote:
I admire your persistence...even if in error! When properly directed and employed, such persistence can indeed be a great aid on the Path to Self-Realization and Spiritual Illumination.
So I am still in error am I? Amazing![:D]
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You are absolutely correct in pointing out that certain individuals were ejected from the Council, five dissenting individuals who denied the Divinity of Christ, and their writings destroyed, out of more than 300 other Bishops in attendance who were in full agreement with one another on this issue, but do you know why? Do you even care to know why? Or is the main issue for you that this was somehow unfair, and that the views of these five should hold greater weight and influence in shaping official theology than the views of the 300+ majority? Are you simply rooting for the 'underdogs'?
I'm not rooting for underdogs, and actually I would be very interested to know why members of the Council of Nicea were exiled. Actually what we are discussing here now is exactly what was discussed at the council, and the reason for the exiles of the Bishops and the burning of the books. [:0]
Of course we cannot really say that 300 Bishops were all in complete agreement with the adoption of the Creed and only 5 bishops were in opposition to it. After all, presumably they all knew that they faced exile and the destruction by fire of their scriptures. Under that kind of pressure, how many would dare to protest. It is a bit like pointing a machine gun at a group of people and asking them if they agree with you?[:D] Surprise surprise!, only five members protested. Someone obviously wanted something to be agreed upon very badly, and I suspect they got what they wanted.[}:)]
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As a Christian, I do in fact believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God because He said that He is, because He demonstrated that He is...unlike any other human ever has, and because His life and teachings have exerted a greater influence on mankind in general than any human life ever lived, IMO.
Thanks for that. I was just wondering where the line is in the bible where Jesus says that he is the only Son of God? I had a quick look, but couldn't find it.
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Please note the lower case 's' of 'sons' used in the scriptural quotes referring to mankind in general as "sons of God" vs. the Capital 'S' used in reference to Jesus as "Son of God".
This is interesting. So there are two different kinds of Son of God? Does this use of the small letter s and the capital S represent the translation of different words from Hebrew/ Aramaic? Or did the original authors use lower and upper case letters?
Christi
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Christi:
Do your homework! [;)] All of your questions would be answered, and the proof of your misunderstanding regarding the atmosphere of fellowship and common accord among the Bishops in attendance at the Council of Nicaea would be clearly perceived, if you would merely take the time to read the linked documents already provided for you twice so far! [:D]
The overwhelming majority of Biships in attendance at this Council, 313 out of 318 initially present, agreed that they believed in the Divinity of Jesus Christ. Additionally, a referendum of this official proclamation declared by the Council was overwhelmingly ratified by the vote of those Bishops who were not able to attend the Council, and by the overwhelming majority of local church members who composed the Christian communities everywhere. [8D]
Furthermore, this official proclamation of Christ's Divinity could have been removed or modified by any of the six subsequent Ecumenical Councils, any of the numerous local Councils convened thereafter, or by any of the public referendums which followed each of these. Clearly, THIS IS WHAT CHRISTIANS DID AND DO FREELY BELIEVE! [^]
But if YOU wish to believe otherwise, or wish to believe that everyone was coerced under the pressure of some horrible sanction to accept this belief, that is certainly your right....even though in error.[V] You go, girl![8]
Also, if you have any knowledge of Biblical Greek, or even merely access to a copy of Strong's Comprehensive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew, Chaldee, and Greek Dictionaries, you could easily verify the words used in the original Hebrew Old Testament Scriptures and in the original Greek New Testament Scriptures, as well as the words used in the Greek documents produced by the Ecumenical Councils. All it takes is a bit of time to search them out.[:)]
So, either do your homework, by researching and reading what is available to you for clarification on this debate, or drop the issue and move on...satisfied that you know best, even though you didn't really check it out sufficiently.[:I] Either way is OK with me.[:)]
Regards ~
Doc
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Question: what is the true christian understanding about reincarnation ?
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Interesting stuff. Backing up a little-
Doc wrote: "Please note the lower case 's' of 'sons' used in the scriptural quotes referring to mankind in general as "sons of God" vs. the Capital 'S' used in reference to Jesus as "Son of God". Please note also that Jesus made frequent references to the 'Bible'...i.e. the Old Testament Torah and other Holy Scriptures of Jewish Faith. The 'Bible' as we may think of it today, including the New Testament Scriptures based on Jesus's Teachings, were not put into writing until after His death and Resurrection, but were disseminated through oral transmission instead until this method became impossible to depend upon solely in meeting the needs of huge numbers of converts to Christianity. "
OK this will take a scholar to figure out, which I am not: You are claiming the bible makes a distinction between the "only begotten" son with a capital "S" and sons of God, us, with a small "s". Yet the bible was written from an oral tradition, and quotes things said when Jesus was alive. So was Jesus using some kind of hand gestures to indicate a capital "S?" Or maybe the original words were different in aramaic.
The other thing that doesn't make sense to me, is if Jesus was God incarnate, and the bible is the word of God, then surely Jesus would have made references to the testaments that had not been written yet, as prophecies in the bible extend until today, and he would have known the huge impact that the bible would carry for thousands of years.
Especially because there are so many christians who pretty much follow the new testament and kinda ignore the old.
Then there are people like me who believe in the teachings of Jesus, but not so much the bible except as a means of conveying Jesus' teachings only.
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Regarding the phrases "Son of God" and "sons of God" found in the Scriptures, the Greek word used for both phrases in all of the original Gospel texts is "huios", meaning "son" or "sons" of immediate family kinship.
In transcribing the scriptures from oral transmission to written texts, the first letter of this Greek word, "huios", was written as an Upper Case Letter when referring to Jesus as "Son of God" or "Son of the Living God" to denote His exclusive relationship with the Father and the Holy Spirit, as One in Essence, an Equal Consubstantial Trinity, One God in Three Persons. This example was followed in translating the Gospels, and other New Testament Scriptures, from the original Greek texts into other languages. It is for this same reason also that other words used in personal reference to Jesus are written with an Upper Case first letter.
When Jesus asked his disciples "...who do you say I AM? Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. And Jesus replied saying to him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you, but My Heavenly Father."
This is understood to be an admission by Jesus of having a special and unique relationship with the Father, the Living God, which is distinct from that of any other human being, including the Prophets, Sages, and Holy Men who preceded Jesus, and the Saints or Holy Men who followed in succession after Him. Peter's Confession of Faith regarding Jesus's true identity is in fact the Foundation Stone or Rock upon which the Church has been built. [8D]
Regarding the notion that Jesus should have prophesied to people who couldn't read about scriptural texts which were not yet written.....c'mon, man, gimme a break [B)]....sheesh! What a hoot![:D] To what purpose?[8] This is an absurd and moot point, IMO.[|)]
Doc
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Hi Doc,
quote:
Christi:
Do your homework! All of your questions would be answered, and the proof of your misunderstanding regarding the atmosphere of fellowship and common accord among the Bishops in attendance at the Council of Nicaea would be clearly perceived, if you would merely take the time to read the linked documents already provided for you twice so far!
I had studied these references, so please don't be so presumptious! All I could conclude was that the Bishops present at the council of Nicea were being asked to agree to a common Christian Creed which outlined the common belief in the Unique Divinity of one man, Jesus of Nazareth. Any Bishops which did not agree to sign up to the creed were exiled and had there scriptures burned. Now if you want to call this an atmosphere of fellowship and common accord then that's your choice. I think most people would not choose that exact phrase![:D] Please note that I am not questioning the Divine nature of Jesus Christ, but I am certainly aware that if the level of common agreement that you suggest existed was actually present then this particular form of control would not have been necessary.
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Also, if you have any knowledge of Biblical Greek, or even merely access to a copy of Strong's Comprehensive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew, Chaldee, and Greek Dictionaries, you could easily verify the words used in the original Hebrew Old Testament Scriptures and in the original Greek New Testament Scriptures, as well as the words used in the Greek documents produced by the Ecumenical Councils. All it takes is a bit of time to search them out.
So, either do your homework, by researching and reading what is available to you for clarification on this debate, or drop the issue and move on..
Actually I don't have any knowledge of Ancient Greek, or Ancient Hebrew, or Aramaic, or access to any of the texts that you mention. That is why I put the question out onto the forum, just in case anyone else has knowledge of these things or access to the texts. If you don't, or don't want to help, then you can simply say so and leave it to others to debate.[:)]
But you didn't answer my question. Where does it say in the bible that Jesus claimed that he was the Only Begotten Son of God? You did say that he claimed that he was. I have searched the bible in vain, and could find nothing in any other non-biblical Christian works. If you are unable to find the referance right now then maybe someone else knows it? I have already done the research, and came up with nothing.
Christi
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Hi Philip,
Thanks for the very detailed and informative reply.
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"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
So in your understanding, this line in the bible refers to men who were Christed, marrying women who were not?
quote:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
I assume that when it says "received him" here, it is reffering to Jesus Christ. So does this line indicate that the "sons of God" is not a reference to men in general, but rather to a state that someone can attain if they have faith in Jesus Christ? This would certainly re-enforce your understanding of what a "son of God" is, as being any person who has attained the Christed state.
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The CHRIST is the Son of God, the Only Begotten Son of God. YET, Christ is not a person. Christ is a FORCE, a FIRE, a LIGHT. Christ is not an individual, Christ is not a person, Christ is not a soul, Christ is not a "God", Christ is the Light of the World, the burning Fire that palpitates within the igneous particles of life. Christ is the Universal Spirit of Life.
Nevertheless, that Son can be incarnated in any individual who is prepared.
It is important to understand that Christ is beyond the soul and the spirit. It is beyond the "Buddha" or tathagata, the Being, the Atman, etc. Before one can incarnate Christ, one must first incarnate the Master, the Spirit, the Buddha... only then does one go even further than that, which the Christ, the Master of all the Masters, the Being of the Being.
So, someone who has merged with that fire has become one within that fire. Meaning, their individual Will is perfectly harmonized with Thy Will. When someone incarnated Christ, becoming a Son of God, they become a supra-individual. There is no ego, no will of the "I", no will of the self. It is a perfect individual expression of the collective will of that Intelligence we call God. This is what it means to be a supra-individual
This is a beautiful description of a very high state of consciousness.
So if you are right, it looks like the Orthadox Christians, at some point, got confused between Jesus the man, and the Christ light, believing that the Christ light was only to be found in the man, and not something that was accessible eternally to all. It does look very much like we are discussing stages in the final process of Divine Realization here (note the Capital letters[8D]).
Doc indicated as much when he said this:
quote:
according to Orthodox Christian theology, all are capable of Union with God, Henosis....and eventual Deification, Theosis, as an inevitable result of such Union, but only Jesus Christ, Yeshua ha-Mashiach, the Annointed One of God's Salvation, is innately Divine in Nature, or Consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit, One God in Three Persons, from the beginning!
It sounds like Doc is saying that humans are capable of attaining the Unified state of Consciousness, and after that, a higher Deified State. But that only Jesus Christ was Christed by birth. He seems to imply further that us ordnary mortals are not capable of attaining this highest state that Jesus Christ attained, of Consubstantiation with the Trinity. I assume that you would not agree with the last statement about the Consubstantiation being only available to Jesus Christ?
I assume also that the Gnostic Christians did not sign up to the Creed (We believe in one God etc....) that was accepted at the Council of Nicea?
Christi
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Philip,
Thanks for the very detailed and informative reply.
quote:
"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
So in your understanding, this line in the bible refers to men who were Christed, marrying women who were not?
Yes, in my view, that is an allegory to the fall of certain angels.
Although sexual alchemy is the way to become an angel, it is also true that once the work of the genesis of the angel is complete, then it is forbidden to take a wife.
The “Being” has many different parts. It happens that the mind falls in love and through this doorway all the angels who ever fell, did so through the door of sex.
The entrance and exit of Eden is only possible through the door of sex.
quote:
quote:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
I assume that when it says "received him" here, it is reffering to Jesus Christ. So does this line indicate that the "sons of God" is not a reference to men in general, but rather to a state that someone can attain if they have faith in Jesus Christ? This would certainly re-enforce your understanding of what a "son of God" is, as being any person who has attained the Christed state.
A true Son of God would be a Christified One, but it could also be used in a more general way to refer to those who are progressing on the path towards that..
Now, what we are, are Sons of the Devil, and all the Lusts of the Devil we do!
38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
The Pharisees and Sadducees, which are always heckling the Christ, are all SYMBOLS.
Pharisee: the intellectual, skeptical mind that only knows information about the five senses and rejects the wisdom of the lord. Today, this is the vast majority of "science". This is also, many times, the thief on the left of Christ, abusing him.. they say, have "safe" sex with as many partners as you wish, express your sexuality through masturbation, there is nothing wrong with that, the bible was written by ignoramuses, based on the superstitions of mythomanaics, etc., etc.
Sadducee: the fanatical religious elements that believe, although very sincerely, very mistakenly, about how righteous they are, how lucky they are to be saved by the Lord, and wrong the others are. "Oh Lord, thanks be that I am saved, and that I am not like the others who do not believe in you..." Meanwhile they are like the thief on the right of Christ on the Mount of Skulls, also stealing from the Lord for "good intentions."
Both the Pharisee and the Sadducee live WITHIN; they both believe that they are the righteous ones. They add the "leaven" (unnecessary elements: beliefs, theories, ideas, pride, envy, lust, hate, anger, etc.) to the "bread" of Wisdom. The Christ principle lives WITHIN. The elements which kill the lord and scream "Cruxifiction!" are the elements of the "Devil" that live within! Therefore, we are sons of the devil until that devil dies, and only the "Son" can perform that.
So, because Jesus is symbolizing the part of the Son of God (the Christ principle), the only Begotten, it is good that he is the "Son" and others are the "sons." He is also, in my understanding, the one most highly exalted by God, he is at the "top," so it is fitting.
By faith we have to understand that this is beyond belief. Faith is not something held in the intellect. Faith is something that is assimilated through experience, it is the result of experiencing god. To really have faith in Christ, to believe in Christ, one has to have that experience of him, little by little, in every atomic particle of their existence. Once that occurs, they are saved! This means that one has illuminated, through the light of Christ, every particle of darkness that as a sum is the "unconsciousness." People believe that they are really saved but they still dream, they do not possess a permanent center of consciousness, and what is worse, is that they ignore that 97% of their self is "darkness" or unconsciousness.
quote:
This is a beautiful description of a very high state of consciousness.
So if you are right, it looks like the Orthadox Christians, at some point, got confused between Jesus the man, and the Christ light, believing that the Christ light was only to be found in the man, and not something that was accessible eternally to all. It does look very much like we are discussing stages in the final process of Divine Realization here (note the Capital letters[8D]).
Well, really, there are few who make any distinction between Jesus and Christ. In most cases it doesn’t matter because Jesus was the one who best transmitted the light of Christ.
quote:
Doc indicated as much when he said this:
quote:
according to Orthodox Christian theology, all are capable of Union with God, Henosis....and eventual Deification, Theosis, as an inevitable result of such Union, but only Jesus Christ, Yeshua ha-Mashiach, the Annointed One of God's Salvation, is innately Divine in Nature, or Consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit, One God in Three Persons, from the beginning!
It sounds like Doc is saying that humans are capable of attaining the Unified state of Consciousness, and after that, a higher Deified State. But that only Jesus Christ was Christed by birth. He seems to imply further that us ordnary mortals are not capable of attaining this highest state that Jesus Christ attained, of Consubstantiation with the Trinity. I assume that you would not agree with the last statement about the Consubstantiation being only available to Jesus Christ?
God has no form. It is absurd to anthropomorphize space. “God” is the three primary forces of the Universe: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; Kether, Chokmah, Binah; Osiris, Isis, and Horus; Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva; Holy Affirming, Holy Denying, and Holy Reconciling.
Only that element called “Jesus” within can save you. Only that element called “Jesus” within can reach those heights. Only that element called “Jesus” is born pure within the one who knows the way and only through him can one be Christified.
Whosoever forms Christ becomes Christ. Only Christ can ascend to the Father. The Father is neither a human nor a divine individual. The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are substances, forces, transcendental and terrifically divine energies. That is all. What happens is that unfortunately people have a marked tendency to anthropomorphise these superior forces.
Jesus lived the drama of the Passion; nonetheless, he was not the only one who has lived it. Prior to him, some Initiates like Hermes, Quetzalcoatl, Krishna, Orpheus, Buddha etc., lived it. After Him, a few others have lived it. The drama of the Passion is cosmic.
quote:
I assume also that the Gnostic Christians did not sign up to the Creed (We believe in one God etc....) that was accepted at the Council of Nicea?
Christi
No, I find nothing wrong with that creed, it is pure Gnosticism.
If you want to know more about Christ, read this page: http://www.gnosticteachings.org/content/view/83/65/
Here is a quote:
The world needed something new. The universal religion needed to manifest in a new form. Jesus was the initiator of that New Era. Indeed, Jesus the Christ was the Divine Hero of the New Age.
The Nicene Council held in the year 325 A. D. did not create a new hero, as the materialistic swine suppose. In the Nicene Council a Doctrine and a Man were officially recognised.
The Doctrine was primeval Christianity, today disfigured by the Roman Catholic sect. The Man was Jesus. Many men had declared themselves Avatars of the New Era; however, none of them except for Jesus had taught the Doctrine of the New Era. The facts speak for themselves, and Jesus spoke with facts; this is why He was recognised as the initiator of the New Era.
The Doctrine of Jesus is Christic esoterism, the Solar Religion of all ages and centuries.
The Gnosticism taught by Jesus is the religion of the Sun, the primeval Christianity of the Gods of Dawn.
Indeed, the Nicene Council gave legal status to a new religious form that had long endured terrifying persecution and martyrdom. It is enough to remember the circus of lions in the times of Nero, when the Christians were thrown into the arena to be devoured by those wild animals.
Let us remember the epoch of the catacombs and the sufferings of all those Gnostics. It was only just that the Nicene Council should definitively recognise in a totally official form a Solar Doctrine and a Man who had incarnated the Cosmic Christ.
We clarify that the Holy Gods of the Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Iberian, Scandinavian, Gaelic, Germanic, Assyrian, Aramaic, Babylonian, Persian religions, etc., have not died. Those Gods fulfilled their mission and thereafter they withdrew; that is all. In a future Mahamanvantara those ineffable Gods and their divine religions will Return in the right day and hour for a new manifestation.
When a religious form disappears, it commends its ecumenical universal principles to the religious form that follows it. This is the Law of Life.
Jesus has the divine attributes of Krishna, Buddha, Zeus-Jupiter, Apollo. All of them were born from a Virgin. Indeed, Christ is always born from the Virgin Mother of the World. Every Master practises Sexual Magic; thus, speaking in a symbolic sense, we can assert that Christ is born within the womb of the priestess wife.
The emblems, symbols and dramas of the Birth of the Gods are always the same. The God Mithra was born on the 24th of December at midnight, just as Jesus. The birthplace of Jesus was Bethlehem. This name comes from the name of the God of Babylonian and Germanic people, who named their Sun God Bel or Beleno. Therefore, the birth in Belen or Bethlehem was in order to make understandable the reality of a Man who had incarnated the Christ-Sun.
Thus, the Goddesses Isis, Juno, Demeter, Ceres, Vesta, Maia, were personified in the mother of the Hierophant Jesus. The Hebrew Maiden Mary was a great Initiate. Every occultist knows this. All these Goddess Mothers can rightly represent the Divine Mother Kundalini from whom the Universal Verb of Life is always born.
All the martyred Saints, Virgins, Angels, Cherubim, Seraphim, Archangels, Powers, Virtues and Thrones are the same Demigods, Titans, Goddesses, Sylphs, Cyclops and Messengers of the Gods, yet now with new names. The religious principles are always the same. The religious forms may change; however, the principles do not change because only one religion, the Universal Religion, exists.
The ancient convents of nuns reappeared in a new form. Nonetheless, it was a misfortune, because the medieval priests only used the priestesses to Fornicate, because of the fact of not knowing the Great Arcanum. If they had known the Great Arcanum, the priestesses would have fulfilled a great mission, and the priests would have attained profound Self-realization. Then the Roman Catholic form would not have degenerated, and Christic Esoterism would now be resplendent in all temples.
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi:
"I had studied these references, so please don't be so presumptious! I have searched the bible in vain, and could find nothing in any other non-biblical Christian works. I have already done the research, and came up with nothing."
Hello Christi:
Well then, you are apparently only finding what you want to find when reading those documents...i.e. nothing to support your view, and seeing only what you want to see, kinda like you did when you used Google earlier on in this discussion. [:D]
In the final analysis, however, the Council documents are available for public perusal, the Nicaean Creed and other Theological Canons and Proclamations which the Council produced have remained the Foundation of Christian Faith for nearly 1,700 years to date, and have been accepted as such by more than one third of the world's population even today, even though these Basis Tenets could have been amended or replaced by any of the Councils which were convened through the centuries after Nicaea, and the general referendums which followed each of them. [;)]
Ultimately, Christian beliefs are only truly understood and accepted through a very personal Inner Experience of Spiritual Transformation brought about by sincere efforts to actually manifest the Gospel Message of Christ in everyday life....by spiritually resonating to Jesus's Teachings on Love, Forgiveness, Faith in God, and so much more, in a profoundly deep way inwardly. [8D]
This can NEVER occur through mere intellectual conjecture or polemics, regardless of how erudite or scholarly these may appear to be, but can only be acquired experientially through the Grace of God's Great Mercy towards mankind and the emulation of Christ's Divine Love for All, with the Guidance and Counsel of the Holy Spirit to assist us along the Way. [:)]
Understandably, those who are not Christians will not be inclined to seriously study the Holy Scriptures and Meditate on their Truth with a Christian perspective, or be inclined to engage in the Christian methods of Contemplative Prayer which open the Heart to their deeper spiritual meaning. Such individuals, always on the outside looking in, can't possibly see either the parts or the whole of real Christianity with the same perpsective that a genuinely devout Christian does. I would venture to say that this is probably true in regards to ANY religion, not just in reference to Christianity. [:)]
In any event, I honor your right to personally accept or reject Christian Doctrine and Theology according to whatever measure resonates best for you. [^]
That having been said, I have neither the time nor the desire to devote further efforts towards debate on these issues with anyone here. We have all apparently made our personal choices regarding religious beliefs already, and these are not likely to change by debating the differences in opinion. [V]
If you think that Philip's quasi-gnostic teachings on Christian doctrines better represent something that you feel more comfortable with, I don't have a problem with that at all. I will merely add once again that such teachings ARE NOT what the vast majority of Christians have ever identified with as authentic representations of Christ's Teachings. [|)]
If Philip's interpretations are correct, and millions of mainstream Christians are wrong, or visa versa, either way, we will all be held responsible before God in the end for our choice of thoughts, words, and actions. Karma always has a way of coming around sooner or later, doesn't it [?] [:0]
Love and Light to All ~
Doc
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Gruss Gott, Wolfgang!
The subject of Reincarnation has been widely debated through the centuries within the ranks of Greek Orthodox or Eastern Christianity. Both those who support this belief and those who do not have offered Chapter and Verse passages from the Old and New Testament Scriptures, along with exhaustive and erudite treatises on the subject to support their respective views.
One of the key points of such debate has been to define the meaning of the terms 'reincarnation of souls', 'transmigration of souls', and 'transformation of souls', as these are commonly understood by people of many different religions, systems of spirituality, and schools of spiritual philosophy. Strictly speaking, these terms are not completely synonymous with one another, although often used as if they were, but have varying nuances of meaning and interpretation.
By Orthodox reckoning, 'reincarnation of souls' implies the transfer of soul consciousness from one body to another and another in succession, either up or down the ladder of spiritual evolution according to the retribution accrued by personal choices and their effects in previous lives.
The term 'transmigration of souls' was equated with the Greek term 'metempsychosis', which implies not only the assumption of a new 'body', but the acquisition of a new soul consciousness or a new mind as well, without continuation of individual spiritual identity.
And the term 'transformation of souls' implies a modification of soul consciousness, or the renewal of mind and spirit, through the use of the same body. Also implied in this concept is the potential for both spiritual and physical immortality, thus eliminating the need for more than one body. Additionally, the Resurrection of the Dead for reunion of soul and body in life is included here.
By acknowledging that anything is possible through the Grace and Will of Almighty God, who is also All-Knowing and Present in All, the concept of 'reincarnation' might well be a part of God's Plan of spiritual Redemption for mankind, and there is ample evidence of this belief among early Christian writers, including Scriptural passages which can easily be interpreted to imply such belief. This was especially true among those who were pagan converts to Christianity, more so than among those who converted from Judaism.
The idea of 'transmigration' or 'metempsychosis', by comparison, did not sit well with Traditional Jewish Theology or the Eastern Christian Theology which sprang from it. Thus, both the 'reincarnation of souls' and the 'transmigration of souls' were perceived to be concepts more closely associated with pagan spirituality historically, and were thus officially rejected by the Ecumenical Council of Constaninople.
The concept of the 'transformation of souls', however, is perceived to better reflect the Foundation of Christian Theology, specifically that Jesus conquered Death by death, through the uniqueness of His Redemptive Resurrection. This unique event in human history thereby eliminated any previous necessity for mankind to achieve Union with God (Henosis), and subsequent Deification in God (Theosis), solely through long, arduous personal efforts and merit alone, such as successfully obeying the Ten Commandments. [:I][V] Similarly, the resolution of cause and effect retribution resulting from an individual's thoughts, words, and actions no longer need to be resolved through personal efforts of penitence alone, nor through subsequent reincarnations into other bodies until you get the job done right! [:D]
Thus, Christ's Redemptive suffering, conquering Death by death, and His Resurrection, opened the Gates to Paradise once again and Illuminated the Way to God for all who choose to follow His Teachings, assisted by the Divine Presence of the Holy Spirit for Guidance and Counsel, and eventually culminating in the Resurrection of the Dead in the Last Days. [8D]
Love and Light to All ~
Doc
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Hi Doc,
quote:
Hello Christi:
Well then, you are apparently only finding what you want to find when reading those documents...i.e. nothing to support your view, and seeing only what you want to see, kinda like you did when you used Google earlier on in this discussion.
Well, it seems from your answer to my question, that you also are not aware of any reference in the Bible or anywhere else where it is written that Christ said that he was the only begotten Son of God. You did say in an earlier post that you believed he was the only begotten Son of God because he said so and because he demonstrated that he was.
So it would seem that it is actually you that see what you choose when you read these scriptures and not me. I have looked hard for scriptural evidence to support the idea that Jesus of Nazareth believed that he was the only begotten Son of God. I am open to the idea. But the evidence does not seem to exist. In fact it would seem rather that Jesus of Nazareth believed that all who followed his teachings would become Sons and Daughters of God. Certainly this is the image that we get if we read the Gospel according to John. Certainly it is recorded that Jesus demonstrated many Siddhis in public. But I can't see how the demonstration of magical acts constitutes proof that someone is the only begotten Son of God?
I do not think that we should let the fact that 2 Billion people believe a certain thing to be true to taint our judgment in any way. After all, if you were to ask any Hindu if Jesus of Nazareth was the only begotten Son of God, I think they would emphatically say no. After all, where would that leave Krishna? I think the same would apply for Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, Muslims, atheists. In fact it is possible that 4 Billion people believe that Jesus was not the only begotten Son of God, so if we want to count numbers as proof of anything, then it would swing heavily one way.
I do believe that it is important that we try to come to an understanding for ourselves of what Jesus Christ was trying to teach, and that we should help each other in that endeavor.
I am sorry that you are not going to continue this discussion with anyone, including myself. Your erudite wisdom, and knowledge regarding some aspects of Christian teachings will be greatly missed.
Christi
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc
Gruss Gott, Wolfgang!
Thanks Doc, for your reply. Trying your German [;)], not bad !
So, reincarnation seems to be excluded from the christian faith.
I would like to elaborate on this and may be get further input.
The main christian faith is, that we have one physical live,
then we die and go to the spiritual world. We end up either
in heaven or in hell or somewhere in between.
To my knowledge the christian faith also implies that those
who are in hell (or somewhere in between), have to wait until
the end of all days until they proceed (or are extinguished [:0])
Anyway, my intention is not to attack the christian faith.
I am just wondering why the concept of reincarnation was dismissed
by the Ecumenical Council.
We have seen in history that dogmatic faith has been misused
many times, by inducing fear in the people like: "If you do not
believe (what we tell you) you will go to hell."
I think we can agree that such an inducing of fear surely
will have some serious karma consequences.
I think we also can agree that popes, bishops and priests
have misused their power by using faith concepts.
For me reincarnation shows a more loving God:
How can a mere 100 years of life (if we live that long) determine
the rest of eternity ?
100 years is long, but it is not long enough for any human being
to evolve all of humans capacity: discovering the divine within.
Now, reincarnation for me is still a belief concept, I have not (yet)
remembered any of my previous lifes.
I was brought up and lived in a catholic surrounding.
Catholic and any other christian faith concepts about hell and
purgatory are just that: faith concepts.
There are people who claim to remember some of their past lifes.
So, reincarnation seems to be possible.
Then there are people who claim to have spoken to the dead,
to their ancestors or to other people who have lived in the past
and who now are living in the spirit world.
Can we reconcile these two aspects ?
Love and Light
Wolfgang
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Here is another perspective on reincarnation from Abdul Baha:
Although I am not a member of the Bahai Faith, I agree with the teachings:
"Question.--What is the truth of the question of reincarnation, which is believed by some people?
Answer.--The object of what we are about to say is to explain the reality--not to deride the beliefs of other people; it is only to explain the facts; that is all. We do not oppose anyone's ideas, nor do we approve of criticism. "
[I love Abdul Baha: [:)] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Baha]
"Know, then, that those who believe in reincarnation are of two classes: one class does not believe in the spiritual punishments and rewards of the other world, and they suppose that man by reincarnation and return to this world gains rewards and recompenses; they consider heaven and hell to be restricted to this world and do not speak of the existence of the other world. Among these there are two further divisions. One division thinks that man sometimes returns to this world in the form of an animal in order to undergo severe punishment and that, after enduring this painful torment, he will be released from the animal world and will come again into the human world; this is called transmigration. The other division thinks that from the human world one again returns to the human world, and that by this return rewards and punishments for a former life are obtained; this is called reincarnation. Neither of these classes speak of any other world besides this one.
The second sort of believers in reincarnation affirm the existence of the other world, and they consider reincarnation the means of becoming perfect--that is, they think that man, by going from and coming again to this world, will gradually acquire perfections, until he reaches the inmost perfection. In other words, that men are composed of matter and force: matter in the beginning--that is to say, in the first cycle--is imperfect, but on coming repeatedly to this world it progresses and acquires refinement and delicacy, until it becomes like a polished mirror; and force, which is no other than spirit, is realized in it with all the perfections.
This is the presentation of the subject by those who believe in reincarnation and transmigration. We have condensed it; if we entered into the details, it would take much time. This summary is sufficient. No logical arguments and proofs of this question are brought forward; they are only suppositions and inferences from conjectures, and not conclusive arguments. Proofs must be asked for from the believers in reincarnation, and not conjectures, suppositions and imaginations.
But you have asked for arguments of the impossibility of reincarnation. This is what we must now explain. The first argument for its impossibility is that the outward is the expression of the inward; the earth is the mirror of the Kingdom; the material world corresponds to the spiritual world. Now observe that in the sensible world appearances are not repeated, for no being in any respect is identical with, nor the same as, another being. The sign of singleness is visible and apparent in all things. If all the granaries of the world were full of grain, you would not find two grains absolutely alike, the same and identical without any distinction. It is certain that there will be differences and distinctions between them. As the proof of uniqueness exists in all things, and the Oneness and Unity of God is apparent in the reality of all things, the repetition of the same appearance is absolutely impossible. Therefore, reincarnation, which is the repeated appearance of the same spirit with its former essence and condition in this same world of appearance, is impossible and unrealizable. As the repetition of the same appearance is impossible and interdicted for each of the material beings, so for spiritual beings also, a return to the same condition, whether in the arc of descent or in the arc of ascent, is interdicted and impossible, for the material corresponds to the spiritual.
Nevertheless, the return of material beings with regard to species is evident; so the trees which during former years brought forth leaves, blossoms and fruits in the coming years will bring forth exactly the same leaves, blossoms and fruits. This is called the repetition of species. If anyone makes an objection saying that the leaf, the blossom and the fruit have been decomposed, and have descended from the vegetable world to the mineral world, and again have come back from the mineral world to the vegetable world, and, therefore, there has been a repetition-- the answer is that the blossom, the leaf and the fruit of last year were decomposed, and these combined elements were disintegrated and were dispersed in space, and that the particles of the leaf and fruit of last year, after decomposition, have not again become combined, and have not returned. On the contrary, by the composition of new elements, the species has returned. It is the same with the human body, which after decomposition becomes disintegrated, and the elements which composed it are dispersed. If, in like manner, this body should again return from the mineral or vegetable world, it would not have exactly the same composition of elements as the former man. Those elements have been decomposed and dispersed; they are dissipated in this vast space. Afterward, other particles of elements have been combined, and a second body has been formed; it may be that one of the particles of the former individual has entered into the composition of the succeeding individual, but these particles have not been conserved and kept, exactly and completely, without addition or diminution, so that they may be combined again, and from that composition and mingling another individual may come into existence. So it cannot be proved that this body with all its particles has returned; that the former man has become the latter; and that, consequently, there has been repetition; that the spirit also, like the body, has returned; and that after death its essence has come back to this world.
If we say that this reincarnation is for acquiring perfections so that matter may become refined and delicate, and that the light of the spirit may be manifest in it with the greatest perfection, this also is mere imagination. For, even supposing we believe in this argument, still change of nature is impossible through renewal and return. The essence of imperfection, by returning, does not become the reality of perfection; complete darkness, by returning, does not become the source of light; the essence of weakness is not transformed into power and might by returning, and an earthly nature does not become a heavenly reality. The tree of Zaqqum, [The infernal tree mentioned in the Qur'án.] no matter how frequently it may come back, will not bring forth sweet fruit, and the good tree, no matter how often it may return, will not bear a bitter fruit. Therefore, it is evident that returning and coming back to the material world does not become the cause of perfection. This theory has no proofs nor evidences; it is simply an idea. No, in reality the cause of acquiring perfections is the bounty of God.
The Theosophists believe that man on the arc of ascent [i.e., of the Circle of Existence.] will return many times until he reaches the Supreme Center; in that condition matter becomes a clear mirror, the light of the spirit will shine upon it with its full power, and essential perfection will be acquired. Now, this is an established and deep theological proposition, that the material worlds are terminated at the end of the arc of descent, and that the condition of man is at the end of the arc of descent, and at the beginning of the arc of ascent, which is opposite to the Supreme Center. Also, from the beginning to the end of the arc of ascent, there are numerous spiritual degrees. The arc of descent is called beginning, [Lit., bringing forth.] and that of ascent is called progress. [Lit., producing something new.] The arc of descent ends in materialities, and the arc of ascent ends in spiritualities. The point of the compass in describing a circle makes no retrograde motion, for this would be contrary to the natural movement and the divine order; otherwise, the symmetry of the circle would be spoiled.
Moreover, this material world has not such value or such excellence that man, after having escaped from this cage, will desire a second time to fall into this snare. No, through the Eternal Bounty the worth and true ability of man becomes apparent and visible by traversing the degrees of existence, and not by returning. When the shell is once opened, it will be apparent and evident whether it contains a pearl or worthless matter. When once the plant has grown it will bring forth either thorns or flowers; there is no need for it to grow up again. Besides, advancing and moving in the worlds in a direct order according to the natural law is the cause of existence, and a movement contrary to the system and law of nature is the cause of nonexistence. The return of the soul after death is contrary to the natural movement, and opposed to the divine system.
Therefore, by returning, it is absolutely impossible to obtain existence; it is as if man, after being freed from the womb, should return to it a second time. Consider what a puerile imagination this is which is implied by the belief in reincarnation and transmigration. Believers in it consider the body as a vessel in which the spirit is contained, as water is contained in a cup; this water has been taken from one cup and poured into another. This is child's play. They do not realize that the spirit is an incorporeal being, and does not enter and come forth, but is only connected with the body as the sun is with the mirror. If it were thus, and the spirit by returning to this material world could pass through the degrees and attain to essential perfection, it would be better if God prolonged the life of the spirit in the material world until it had acquired perfections and graces; it then would not be necessary for it to taste of the cup of death, or to acquire a second life.
The idea that existence is restricted to this perishable world, and the denial of the existence of divine worlds, originally proceeded from the imaginations of certain believers in reincarnation; but the divine worlds are infinite. If the divine worlds culminated in this material world, creation would be futile: nay, existence would be pure child's play. The result of these endless beings, which is the noble existence of man, would come and go for a few days in this perishable dwelling, and after receiving punishments and rewards, at last all would become perfect. The divine creation and the infinite existing beings would be perfected and completed, and then the Divinity of the Lord, and the names and qualities of God, on behalf of these spiritual beings, would, as regards their effect, result in laziness and inaction! "Glory to thy Lord, the Lord Who is sanctified from all their descriptions." [Cf. Qur'án 37:180.]
Such were the limited minds of the former philosophers, like Ptolemy and the others who believed and imagined that the world, life and existence were restricted to this terrestrial globe, and that this boundless space was confined within the nine spheres of heaven, and that all were empty and void. Consider how greatly their thoughts were limited and how weak their minds. Those who believe in reincarnation think that the spiritual worlds are restricted to the worlds of human imagination. Moreover, some of them, like the Druzes and the Nusayris, think that existence is restricted to this physical world. What an ignorant supposition! For in this universe of God, which appears in the most complete perfection, beauty and grandeur, the luminous stars of the material universe are innumerable! Then we must reflect how limitless and infinite are the spiritual worlds, which are the essential foundation. "Take heed ye who are endued with discernment." [Qur'án 59:2.]
But let us return to our subject. In the Divine Scriptures and Holy Books "return" is spoken of, but the ignorant have not understood the meaning, and those who believed in reincarnation have made conjectures on the subject. For what the divine Prophets meant by "return" is not the return of the essence, but that of the qualities; it is not the return of the Manifestation, but that of the perfections. In the Gospel it says that John, the son of Zacharias, is Elias. These words do not mean the return of the rational soul and personality of Elias in the body of John, but rather that the perfections and qualities of Elias were manifested and appeared in John.
A lamp shone in this room last night, and when tonight another lamp shines, we say the light of last night is again shining. Water flows from a fountain; then it ceases; and when it begins to flow a second time, we say this water is the same water flowing again; or we say this light is identical with the former light. It is the same with the spring of last year, when blossoms, flowers and sweet-scented herbs bloomed, and delicious fruits were brought forth; next year we say that those delicious fruits have come back, and those blossoms, flowers and blooms have returned and come again. This does not mean that exactly the same particles composing the flowers of last year have, after decomposition, been again combined and have then come back and returned. On the contrary, the meaning is that the delicacy, freshness, delicious perfume and wonderful color of the flowers of last year are visible and apparent in exactly the same manner in the flowers of this year. Briefly, this expression refers only to the resemblance and likeness which exist between the former and latter flowers. The "return" which is mentioned in the Divine Scriptures is this: it is fully explained by the Supreme Pen [Bahá'u'lláh.] in the Kitáb-i-Íqán. Refer to it, so that you may be informed of the truth of the divine mysteries.
Upon you be greetings and praise."
There are also many other Christian Subjects that are addressed here:
http://bahai-library.org/writings/abdulbaha/saq/
[:)]
VIL
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Very interesting posts from everyone! Thanks for sharing your views. [:)]
As stated in previous posts, Eastern Christianity acknowledges that all things are possible for an All-Knowing, All-Powerful God, Whose Presence fills the Universe. As such, it is possible that reincarnation is part of God's Divine Plan for mankind, thus granting us the maximum number of opportunities to achieve Spiritual Union with God through repeated lifetimes in a succession of different bodies until we perfect our Soul Consciousness.
One great stumbling block to the acceptance of this concept by the Orthodox Church has always been the absence of any way to validate that reincarnation actually occurs, either through credible spiritual or scientific means. The fact of the matter is that no one has ever been able to conclusively prove that they have lived any other lifetime other than that which they now live, or in any other body other than that which they now inhabit.
Supposed memories of past lives, visions of same accessed through regressive hypnosis, or through psychic readings of the Akashic Records, and so forth, are not conclusive or verifiable proofs that reincarnation is a reality. Additionally, to insist that reincarnation is the necessary norm for spiritual evolution is to deny the Omnipotence of God's ability to perfect our Soul Consciousness through the Indwelling Presence of His Holy Spirit.
Is it not equally possible that those who choose to surrender their human will, and all that they are and do in a lifetime, to God's Will, would likely attract God's Presence in their life to some greater degree? And wouldn't such surrender to God's Will be an act of personal Devotion which would likely hasten the Perfection, Union and Deification of their Soul Consciousness due to the indwelling Presence of His Holy Spirit active within them? And doesn't the basic concept of reincarnation conversely imply that Spiritual Perfection and Illumination can only be won by repeatedly long and arduous human efforts alone, through the course of many, many lifetimes?
Lastly, most major religions and spiritual philosophies suggest that it is God's Will to reunite us into His Divine Love Presence through the purification of our bodies, minds and souls. Why then would a Unconditionally Loving, Infinitely Compassionate and Merciful God want us to suffer so much for so long, by requiring us to reincarnate again and again, in order to find our way home? [;)]
Blessed Be!
Doc
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Hi Philip
quote:
Hi Philip,
Thanks for the very detailed and informative reply.
quote:
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"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
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So in your understanding, this line in the bible refers to men who were Christed, marrying women who were not?
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Yes, in my view, that is an allegory to the fall of certain angels.
Although sexual alchemy is the way to become an angel, it is also true that once the work of the genesis of the angel is complete, then it is forbidden to take a wife.
The “Being” has many different parts. It happens that the mind falls in love and through this doorway all the angels who ever fell, did so through the door of sex.
This is very interesting. Do you therefore regard humans as being the offspring of an interbreeding between earlier humans and angels? Or do you believe that only some bloodlines are decended from an angel/ human mixture? Is there any way that we can tell who had decended from an angel?
quote:
People believe that they are really saved but they still dream, they do not possess a permanent center of consciousness, and what is worse, is that they ignore that 97% of their self is "darkness" or unconsciousness.
Well... I have certainly found this to be true recently![:D]
quote:
Only that element called “Jesus” within can save you. Only that element called “Jesus” within can reach those heights. Only that element called “Jesus” is born pure within the one who knows the way and only through him can one be Christified.
So as I understand it, for you, Jesus of Nazareth did not exist as an actual human, born in a certain place, at a certain time etc. The story of the man is an allegory, is that right? So you can believe in the accuracy of the Creed, and at the same time, believe that there could be many humans who actually lived, who were Christed? So you could say to a Hindu that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, and that Krishna was Christed, and had taken into himself the light of Christ which was Jesus, the Son of God? Have I got this right?
I am aware that the actual historical evidence to support the idea that Jesus of nazareth actually lived is very poor, other than in the bible story.
quote:
there are few who make any distinction between Jesus and Christ. In most cases it doesnÂ’t matter because Jesus was the one who best transmitted the light of Christ.
And if you believe that Jesus did not actually live, what do you mean here by Jesus was the one who best transmitted the light of Christ?
Christi
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Hi Christi,
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
This is very interesting. Do you therefore regard humans as being the offspring of an interbreeding between earlier humans and angels? Or do you believe that only some bloodlines are decended from an angel/ human mixture? Is there any way that we can tell who had decended from an angel?
I regard a "human" as someone who does the Will of God on Earth, in the physical body, as it is done in Heaven, where the Inner Master, or inner Guru lives (Chesed in Kabbalah).
Human can be broken down into HU-MAN. Man is from MANAS, meaning, "mind." HU is the Spirit, the Wind (Ruach), the Huuu.. ("The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:8)
So, the true human is a Mind that does the Will of the Spirit. A true human is a Malachim (a King) of the Four Elements, a ruler of the earth... A true Human lives in "Eden". When humanity fell out of Eden, they fell out of human generation and back into animal generation (with intellectual capacities).
In this regard, this world is populated not by real humans, but rather animals with intellect.
An Angel is a soul that has reached a level of perfection. There are many ranks of Angels, of Buddhas, of Masters, Devas, etc... call them whatever you wish. Every Angel is someone who has given up his self (ego) will and now performs the will of god, they were created by god and now they serve that intelligence called god... this is why angels have no "self" or egoic will...
Now, the Angels that fell had already completed the cooperative sexual work, they already extracted the gold (spiritual values) from their philosophical stone (sex) in the waters (energy) of alchemy (tantrism). Meaning, that, they were beyond the need for sexual cooperation, they had their center of sexual activity elevated to the "throat" (Daath).. they were creators that used the Word or Logos..
So, taking a wife means that they went backwards, they fell down, they expelled their spiritual values through fornicating with their wives.
When we are speaking in terms of the Kabbalah, the entire Tree of Life, with its Ten Emanations, is the "Being." The Being expresses itself in different ways, with different parts. The Human Soul (Tiphereth) is one part, the Innermost (Chesed) is another, the Mind (Netzach) is another.
The common and everyday person is the expression of a fraction of the Human Soul. This fraction, called the Essence, or Buddhata, etc., is bottled up in the self-willed aggregates we can call the ego, or Seth, or the Devil, the Adversary, whatever you want to call it. When we truly progress in the spiritual work, it is the spirit who is gaining all of that, the inner Guru, the Atman, not "us", not the Essence.
The inner guru (the monad) is happiness, yet, it wants to acquire cognizance of its own happiness, because that is true happiness. It is like a baby that is happy, yet, it does not even know what its own hands and feet are, until it gains understanding of its own self. It is somewhat like that.
The Atman, the Innermost, the Spark, contains all of his abilities in potentiality. An integration is needed, and in order to do that, the Human Soul is the one who works in order to give all the values and experiences that the Innermost needs.
When one reaches the state of an Angel, that is the rank of the Innermost, not the Human Soul. The Soul is just a worker, a servant. When an Angel falls, it is the Soul that falls. The inner God never falls, the Inner God never looses its rank or degree or wisdom.
So, even though an angel has reached a level of perfection, the human soul, with the mind, can fall in love and make mistakes (fornicate). Then, the fallen Angel is the outcome. Really, that have a double polarity, one angelic which is the Innermost, and one diabolic, which is the human soul entrapped within the "self-willed" aggregates. Self-willed is how they are described in The Pistis Sophia; in Tibetan Buddhism they are called aggregates; we can call them vices, defects, sins, etc.
Gudjieff called the fallen ones Hannasmusen. The human soul of a fallen one has a lot of experience, a lot of knowledge, a lot of power. With this a lot of damage occurs. This humanity has a lot of fallen bodhisattvas roaming around.. and they have a lot of heavy karma, and the blood lines are what carry that.. the only way to tell is if you awaken in the internal worlds and converse with the Innermost of someone.
quote:
quote:
Only that element called “Jesus” within can save you. Only that element called “Jesus” within can reach those heights. Only that element called “Jesus” is born pure within the one who knows the way and only through him can one be Christified.
So as I understand it, for you, Jesus of Nazareth did not exist as an actual human, born in a certain place, at a certain time etc. The story of the man is an allegory, is that right? So you can believe in the accuracy of the Creed, and at the same time, believe that there could be many humans who actually lived, who were Christed? So you could say to a Hindu that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, and that Krishna was Christed, and had taken into himself the light of Christ which was Jesus, the Son of God? Have I got this right?
I am aware that the actual historical evidence to support the idea that Jesus of nazareth actually lived is very poor, other than in the bible story.
No, my experience is that Jesus exists. He is alive, he is working is secret.
Yet, the life that is described in the Bible is not a biography. It is symbolism. The real personal life of Jesus was not written down.
People think Jesus did not exist because his life parallels so many other avatars ("messengers"). If we take lives of Krisha, Horus, Mithra, etc., we will find that many of the major elements of the life of Jesus described in the Bible occurred to other messengers before him.
We find midnight at December 24th was from other sects, cults, religions. We find the virgin mother and the immaculate conception in every culture. Krishna was a shepherd, etc.
But this does not mean he did not actually exist. He exists, and he is one with Christ, BUT, with his life he taught the doctrine of the Inner Christ.
When we are talking in Christian terms, yes, the Inner Jesus Christ is what develops within, In Hindu terms, you have Krishna. In Buddhists terms you have Avalokiteshvara or Kuan-Yin, in Mayan terms you have Quetzalcoatl, in Egyptian terms you have Osiris-Ra...
It just is that Christianity has the most complete doctrine of that, of the Only Begotten, because explaining that was part of its main purpose.
You see Jesus is a Kabbalistic name. His name can be formed by taking the Iod-Heva, Iod-He-Vav-He (Jehovah) and placing a Shin in the middle. The Shin is a Hebrew character with three points, thee Iods. It is a trinity, three flames united as one. So, you take the SHIN, the FIRE, and place it in the Iod-He-Vav-He, you get Iod-He-Shin-Vav-He: Yeshua, Jesus, the Savior.
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Here's an interesting perspective on spiritual evolution, I thought that some may enjoy. All you have to do is double click on the diagram and then move your mouse over the picture and click the little square box that appears on the bottom right hand corner to make it even larger for clarity's sake:
http://bahai-library.com/visuals/evolution.txt.html
"Scientific philosophy has demonstrated that a simple element is indestructible, eternal. The soul, not being a composition of elements, is, in character, as a simple element, and, therefore, cannot cease to exist."
"The soul, being of that one indivisible substance, can suffer neither disintegration nor destruction; therefore, there is no reason for its coming to an end. All things living show signs of their existence, and it follows that these signs could not of themselves exist if that which they express or to which they testify had no being. A thing which does not exist can, of course, give no sign of its existence. The manifold signs of the existence of the spirit are forever before us."
"The traces of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, the influence of His divine teaching, is present with us today, and is everlasting."
http://home.arcor.de/unity9/Immortality.htm
From Aristotle:
"the body moving with this circular motion which is unnatural to it is something different from the elements, there will be some other motion which is natural to it. But this cannot be. For if the natural motion is upward, it will be fire or air, and if downward, water or earth. Further, this circular motion is necessarily primary. For the perfect is naturally prior to the imperfect, and the circle is a perfect thing. This cannot be said of any straight line:–not of an infinite line; for, if it were perfect, it would have a limit and an end: nor of any finite line; for in every case there is something beyond it, since any finite line can be extended. And so, since the prior movement belongs to the body which naturally prior, and circular movement is prior to straight, and movement in a straight line belongs to simple bodies–fire moving straight upward and earthy bodies straight downward towards the centre–since this is so, it follows that circular movement also must be the movement of some simple body".
http://academic.udayton.edu/BradHume/hst340/aristotle.htm
From The Emerald Tablets of Thoth:
"Yet only by curves could I hope to attain the key
that would give me access to the time-space.
Found I that only by moving upward
and yet again by moving to right-ward
could I be free from the time of the movement".
http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald.html
[:)]
VIL
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Philosophical and Moral Objections to Reincarnation
THE OVERALL PURPOSE OF reincarnation is to work off all karma until the "sound of silence," that is, the primordial state of the universe, returns once more. There are two fundamental problems with this thesis. First, it assumes that things are getting better; second, when the end of the karmic phase is reached, it will begin all over again.
Toward the Sound of Silence
The assumption that good karma is increasing is a highly questionable notion, as illustrated in the previous chapter. Since most people live in "ignorance," pursuing self-gratification, bad karma would seemingly be generated at a faster rate than good karma. India bears tragic witness to the problems associated with this thesis; despite all her poverty, starvation, suffering and chaos, India is the land where reincarnation has been taught the longest and most systematically. Since most Indian religion aims at reversing the effects of bad karma, it would seem that the subcontinent should be well along the road of evolutionary progress
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and be a lighthouse for the world. Yet the exact opposite is true; India's problems are intractable and seemingly without cure.
Even Madame Blavatsky has admitted that karma does seem to be "absurd" and "unfair." She explains that only the Eastern sages have figured it out. But even though she concedes that karma spreads exponentially, she does not pursue the ramifications of her own statement: "Hurt a man by doing him bodily harm; you think that his pain and suffering cannot spread by any means to his neighbors, least of all to other nations. We affirm that it will, in good time" (Blavatsky's emphasis).1
Head and Cranston also address the problem: "Objectors to reincarnation nevertheless often ask: If all of us have lived thousands of lives, why are we not much further advanced? Such questions usually equate reincarnation with progress, whereas it only provides the opportunity for progress."2 Thus they admit that reincarnation does not guarantee progress. Just how the present syndrome of rapidly multiplying bad karma will ever be reversed to reach the equilibrium of the sound of silence is never adequately explained by any reincarnationist.
This leads to the second problem. Even if all evil and ignorance were eventually "burned off" and the universe reverted to its original equilibrium, the whole cycle would start all over again in the future. Karma is a permanent thing. At best it is only inactive for periods of time. All the gurus, and even Madame Blavatsky, would be reincarnated afresh with the next spasmodic lurch of the wounded cosmos.
This state of affairs gives rise to a rather fundamental question: Is it desirable to be born again? If the world is dominated by suffering and ignorance, as seems to be the case, would anyone of sound mind want to experience hundreds or thousands of human lives? The witness of history speaks tragically to this question. Most people down through the years have lived lives of anxiety, boredom, suffering or terror.
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True, not all people have suffered greatly, but most have lived lives of considerable struggle and hardship, especially by modern Western standards.
Of course, no one wants to believe that despair dominates human existence, and so hope is a persistent theme in human experience and is expressed in whatever context people find themselves.3 Ian Stevenson, writing in the introduction to Edward Ryall's book Born Twice, says, "Edward Ryall's case, like others of its type that I consider genuine, conveys something of which we all stand in need — hope . . . the idea of a second time around suggests both hope and an incentive to better conduct . . . If John Fletcher has become Edward Ryall in a new body, therein lies hope for the rest of us."4
This hope may sound reasonable to some people, but it fades in comparison to the Christian hope of the consummation of life through resurrection, with eternal fulfillment and the destruction of evil and suffering described in the book of Revelation: "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away" (21:3-4).
The Obliteration of Personality
Author John Weldon sums up another objection to the idea of reincarnation: "There is only one thing that makes a future life worthwhile — the preservation of the consciousness of personal identity and uniqueness. Yet, in reincarnation, personal identity and uniqueness are forever obliterated."5 Personality means little in the context of classic Eastern reincarnation. All personalities are ultimately interchangeable and therefore more or less synonymous when viewed over the course of thousands of reincarnations. The universe is one big interconnected unit, and
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everybody seemingly suffers for everything. Personal responsibility for one's own actions vanishes. Each person bears the allotment of karma that was generated by someone else, and the personality one gets in a particular life therefore seems to be dependent on a throw of the cosmic dice. If reincarnation is true, Adolf Hitler will never have to pay for his crimes, for he has ceased to exist. Instead, completely new, unknowing and innocent personalities inherit Hitler's karma. Likewise the righteous also cease to exists, never reaping the benefits of their good lives and self-sacrifice. Others reap the reward.
Ironically, many of the common people of India seem to understand this intuitively. I once asked a Christian pastor in West Bengal whether reincarnation posed any problem for him in his ministry. He replied, "No, because many Indians understand that in reincarnation your personality does not survive. It is destroyed and a new one created. So, in reincarnationist terms, at least, you don't have to worry that your deeds will follow you to the grave — or past it."
This is a shocking syncretistic twisting of Christianity. How is it possible to derive meaning for life from a stance which teaches obliteration of personality? For everything we are, everything we hope for, is to be found within the context of personal existence. To speak of humanity and of human fulfillment is to speak in terms of personality. This is especially true of spiritual salvation. To say that annihilation of personality is a soteriological end cuts across the grain of everything we hope for. Even if self-annihilation were the stated and desired goal, as it is in Buddhism, it is only through personal cognitive conceptualization that such a hope is formulated. To put it another way, "Without a thinker, the thought is nonexistent." Insisting that annihilation of personality is the highest good is simply an a posteriori argument of conceptual fantasy, put forth by people who are unhappy with life. As Carl Henry says, "A lapse of self-consciousness can only mean the surrender of any personal knowledge whatever."6
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Thus the truth of the matter is that death for the reincarnationist is not a great deal different from death for an atheist, since individual personality is obliterated. Reincarnation doctrine would suggest that there is no heaven, but only a series of vaguely related life sentences, and that salvation occurs not in an afterlife paradise but with a successful death. MacGregor seems to agree: "Between one life and the next, every single observable characteristic by which we identify people, and even by which we identify ourselves, undergoes a change. How then can we prove that we are really dealing with the same person? . . . For those who fear death as extinction, [reincarnation] gives little context and meaning to the idea of survival."7
If reincarnation has little regard for the individuality of persons who are mere bearers of karma from one birth to the next, it has even less regard for the flesh that bears it. A low regard for the physical creation has long been a basic presupposition of pantheist and gnostic philosophies. For example, the Hindu Upanishads state that "this body arises from sexual intercourse. It passes to development in darkness. Then it comes forth through the urinary opening. It is built up with bones; smeared over with flesh; covered with skin, filled with feces, urine, phlegm, marrow, fat, grease and also with many diseases."8 MacGregor, commenting on this text, says, "What a wretched hybrid must be that reincarnating self! It would seem to be . . . like an ugly blue-bottle hopping from one animal excrement to another."9
Past-Life Amnesia
In the previous section I have tried to show that the theory of obliteration of personality renders reincarnation unjust. This criticism demonstrates the internal inconsistency of reincarnation, for it purports to be a theory offering thorough justice, whereas in fact great injustice is done to every existing person — each of whom receives the "reward,"
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good or bad, of someone else because personality is obliterated at death.
The vacuous nature of the reincarnating self, however, poses a second problem with reincarnation: the inability to remember past lives. This is a practical problem that arises out of the very desire of reincarnationists to make the theory just. If reincarnation were true and we could remember past lives, then we would have to admit the justice of our present lot in life. So past-life recall is more than a fad to reincarnationists; it is an attempt to vindicate the theory's claim to justice. Thus the interest in past-life recall is twofold. First, if we can recall past lives, they must have been real; therefore reincarnation would be true. Second, if we can recall past lives, then we know we are fairly treated in life; therefore reincarnation would be just.
Not all reincarnationists cite memory of past lives as a proof of reincarnation, but since the inability to remember past lives is manifestly evident for the vast majority of the population, some reincarnationists are understandably defensive about it. Occult apologist Arthur Robson offers a standard reply: "The common objection to the theory of reincarnation is 'Why don't we remember our past lives?' It's true that ordinarily we cannot recall any part of our past lives, but in everything we do our past is plainly seen. Obvious examples are the natural inclinations of each of us . . . outstanding among them being great musicians, artists, mathematicians, etc."10
Here the writer avoids the question he has just asked, using words like plainly and obvious, expecting the reader to believe that the very existence of talented people proves reincarnation. Leoline Wright gives another reincarnationist answer: "The fact is that we do remember them." Her explanation is equally spurious, as she states that that individual has learned his or her lesson from past lives. "In this way we can say that character is memory."11
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By any accounting, however, not many of us (if any at all) remember past lives. Even Wright says that "John Smith and Mary Brown are not deathless beings. They are mere personalities, and as such do not reincarnate."12 If personality is obliterated at death, how can it be remembered and experienced in a future life? Those reincarnationists who firmly hold to the obliteration of personality do not look for recall experiences, believing the earlier incarnation to be gone — and all access to it, even by memory, to be gone as well. Madame Blavatsky finally admits as much: "It may be said that there is not a mental or physical suffering in the life of a mortal which is not the direct fruit and consequence of some sin in a preceding existence; on the other hand, he does not preserve the slightest recollection of it in his actual life."13
What are we to make of this? Each individual personality is supposedly responsible for his or her actions, but neither pays the penalty nor gets the reward, since the personality is extinguished. A totally different person is reborn, burdened with someone else's karma. The questions remain. Does this make sense? Is it just and fair? More important still, is reincarnation really true, or just the product of thousands of years of human speculation? Walter Martin comments on the problem:
It's very interesting that the reincarnationist tells us we go through cyclic rebirth and we suffer in various lives to atone for our sins. But it's very puzzling that nobody remembers his past life in enough detail to profit from it! So we don't know what we're being punished for. And if we don't know what we're being punished for, we're quite likely to repeat the offense. If reincarnation is really karma, or the law of justice (as you sow, so shall you reap"), why not protect the person? Why not give him a full vision of what he had been before, with all his flaws, so that the necessary corrections could be made?14
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Paternoster touches the heart of the matter when he says, "With rare exceptions, we seem to have no memory of previous existences. This is not only an argument against the truth of reincarnation, it is also an argument against its utility, if true".15
Moral Objections of Reincarnation
While philosophic matters and questions of internal logic raise serious doubts about the reality of reincarnation, it is just as important to look at the moral implications of reincarnation teachings.
One such consequence of reincarnation teachings is moral procrastination. Since one always gets "another chance" — whatever that may mean within the impersonal framework of reincarnation — moral imperatives are less urgent, reminding us of Augustine's preconversion prayer, "Give me chastity, but not yet." While a little procrastination may not seem too harmful, this attitude is intrinsically tied to a muted view of the reality of evil and suffering. Nothing is urgent since the cosmic drama of life must unfold according to predetermined karmic fate. People are perceived as merely "working out their karma," and many reincarnationists feel it is unwise to disturb the process. As a result, people who are suffering are left to their fate until their karma is exhausted. However one may mask this callous attitude by appealing to higher consciousness or karmic law, it ultimately is manifested as a low regard for individual life — which often sears both conscience and compassion.
This low regard for human life is well illustrated in the Bhagavad-Gita. Arjuna, a warrior by caste, finds himself in a genuine predicament. He must engage his kinsmen in war. Although he loves them, he realizes that it is his divine duty to fight because of his caste responsibility. As he anguishes on the battlefield, torn between duty and compassion, the god Krishna appears to him and says,
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Abandon this despicable weakness of thy heart and stand up . . . Thou grievest for those who may not be lamented . . . I myself was not, not thou, nor all the princes of the earth; nor shall we ever hereafter cease to be. As the Lord of this mortal frame experienceth therein infancy, youth and old age, so in future incarnations will it meet the same. One who is confirmed in this belief is not disturbed by anything that may come to pass.16
In other words, Krishna has just told Arjuna that he may feel free to kill his kinsmen in battle, for he is not really killing them; he is only destroying the "mortal frame," which is of no great importance since the soul will incarnate again.
This advice is based on the pivotal Hindu concept of dharma, which may be roughly translated as "the inevitability of what must be," or "doing what is set before you." "It is the dharma of fire to burn," as the Indian saying goes. The heart of the matter is that dharma is the unfolding of the divine plan, and therefore there is ultimately neither good nor evil. These categories are obliterated when one attains enlightenment and sees the perfection of all that exists. In Hindu thought, evil is an illusion, an attachment to the phenomenal world which is continually evolving and passing away. Good is therefore synonymous with enlightenment — specifically, that which serves to detach the soul from the worldly illusion of separate and individual existence. The truly enlightened soul realizes that he or she is only a mode of God's existence. Good and evil are not seen as absolute moral categories as they are in Christianity; they are merely different and complementary facets of the divine nature.
This aspect of monism is illustrated very well in the Hindu scripture, the Svetasvatara Upanishad, where we see the concept of enlightenment inextricably bound with reincarnation: "This vast universe is a wheel. Upon it are all creatures that are subject to birth, death and rebirth.
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Round and round it turns, and never stops. It is the wheel of Brahman, it revolves upon the wheel in bondage to the laws of birth, death and rebirth."17
Therefore, just as it is the dharma of fire to burn, each individual's dharma, or fate, is sealed by his karmic inheritance as it evolves its way slowly back to the Godhead. It is all part of the divine play, or lila, which goes as it must.
Consequently, dharma strongly implies a predeterminism which binds each soul to its respective load of karma. This is illustrated in the Bhagavad-Gita when Yudhishthira, older brother of the hero Arjuna, tries to get a straight answer about the problem of predetermined dharma from Krishna, the incarnation of Absolute Deity. Instead he gets only an evasive half-answer because his time for enlightenment has not yet arrived. R.C. Zaehner comments on the passage:
When the battle is over and won, he [Arjuna] asks Krishna whether he would be good enough to repeat them [the words of esoteric saving knowledge] since their purport has gone clear out of his head! Why, one wonders, did the Incarnate God elect to waste his words on Arjuna rather than on Yudhishthira who was athirst to hear them? . . . Yudhishthira's karma has not yet worked itself out: he must wait for it to "ripen" and only then will he attain to moksha [liberation]. To tell him the great secret prematurely would be to violate kharma itself, for the law of karma is inseparable from the eternal dharma and not even God can break it.18
In other words, Arjuna's karma, buried in previous lives, had somehow qualified him for Krishna's saving words; Yudhishthira, despite his desperate desire for truth, was spiritually hamstrung by unremembered karma from past lives, karma so binding and unremitting that not even Krishna, as God incarnate, could release him.
The Neo-Platonic philosopher Plotinus (A.D. 205-270) expresses
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similar sentiments as those found in the Gita:
It [death] comes to no more than the murder of one of the personages in a play; the actor alters his make-up and enters in a new role. The actor, of course, was not really killed; but if dying is but changing a body as the actor changes a costume, or even an exit from the body like the exit of an actor from the boards when he has no more to say or do, what is there so very dreadful in the transformation of living beings one into another? Murders, death in all its guises, the reduction and sacking of cities, all must be just a spectacle as the changing scenes in a play; all is but the varied incident of a plot, costume on and off, acted grief and lament . . . All this is the doing of man, knowing and never perceiving that in his weeping and in his graver doings alike, he is but at play.19
As might be expected, this view has some rather sinister outworkings. It negates not only absolute moral values, but even relative moral values. For instance, hypnotherapist Edith Fiore says, "The therapist should have a metaphysical background too. If she finds a patient murdered his sister in a past life, she has to help him understand that these incidents are just lessons. Just like the child in school who fails, the failure doesn't mean he's good or bad, just that he failed the lesson" (emphasis mine).20
A more blatant example is that uttered by one John-Roger, a Los Angeles "spiritual leader" who is head of the syncretist "Movement of Spiritual Inner Awareness" (MSIA):
Let's look at the Vietnamese people for the last 3,000 years of their existence. As a collective group, they may have gotten exactly what they created for themselves, and they may have balanced all of their karma. Now, is it bad for them to be karmically free of all that? Is that wrong? Perhaps that particular freedom didn't come about in a really popular way, in terms of what we all might have wanted it to be, but it came about in a way
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that was entirely perfect. There was no overkill; there was no underkill. The Americans that went over there and were caught up in it were part of the Vietnamese process thousands of years ago, and even though they were born in America this life, they were pulled back there to complete their karma, also. And those who went through the war unharmed were not part of the process and came home safely. So how can that action be judged as "wrong"?21
If we are to accept John-Roger's judgment, the war in Viet Nam was a cosmic necessity as it balanced a lot a karma. How much more fulfilling, then, was the holocaust of World War II, in which millions were tortured and roasted, their skins made into lampshades! If ever there were a notion more morally repugnant than this, it would be hard to find. The Scriptures testify:
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! (Isaiah 5:20)
If reincarnation is true, there is little reason for comforting one another when misfortune overtakes us. Imagine saying to a young couple with a deformed infant: "It's no problem. Look at it in the cosmic perspective. He must have been a horrible person in the past life, perhaps one of Stalin's executioners, a murderer, or even Attila the Hun." The response is not hard to imagine; and such ghoulish and tasteless speculation could be applied to every unfortunate situation of life. Little wonder that in the East misfortune is met with resignation.
________________________
1. Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, The Key to Theosophy (New York: Theosophical Publ. House, 1889), pp. 46-47.
2. Head and Cranston, Phoenix Fire Mystery, p.13.
3. There is a notable dichotomy between the bare bones of Hindu-Buddhist philosophy and the way people actually live it out. Even gurus and Buddhist holy men hope—although the hope is for samadhi, nirvana or a better lot in the next life. They rarely if ever acknowledge the eternal cyclic despair that lies behind their beliefs.
4. Edward Ryall, Born Twice—Total Recall of a Seventeenth Century Life (New York: Harper & Row, 1974), p.3.
5. John Weldon, "Reincarnation: A Billion People's View of Reality" (manuscript prepared for Spiritual Counterfeits Project, Berkeley, 1979).
6. Henry, God Revelation and Authority, 4:71.
7. MacGregor, Reincarnation in Christianity, pp. 74-75.
8. The Thirteen Principal Upanishads (London: Oxford Univ. Press, 1921), Maitri Upanishad 3:4.
9. MacGregor, Reincarnation in Christianity, p. 73.
10. Arthur Robson, "Infinite Continuity in Multimillionfold Diversity," in Hanson, Karma, p.65.
11. Wright, Reincarnation, p. 21.
12. Ibid., p.7.
13. Blavatsky, "Original Programme," in Collected Writings, vol. 3 (Ostende, Belgium, 1886), p. 170.
14. Walter Martin, The Riddle of Reincarnation (Santa Ana, Calif.: Vision House, 1977), p.26.
15. Paternoster, "Reincarnation—A Christian Critique," p.126.
16. Quoted in Head and Cranston, Phoenix Fire Mystery, p.231.
17. The Upanishads, p.118.
18. Zaehner, Hinduism, p.86.
19. Quoted in Head and Cranston, Phoenix Fire Mystery, p.231.
20. Long Beach Independent-Press Telegram, 6 June 1980.
21. The Movement Newspaper, August 1980, pp. 22-23.
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Reincarnation and Theodicy
On the surface, the doctrine of reincarnation is an honest human attempt to answer the problem of theodicy, God's relationship to evil. For this reason many people find it appealing. W.R. Alger, a distinguished Unitarian clergyman of the nineteenth century, enthusiastically shared this view: "The theory of transmigration of souls is marvellously adapted to explain the seeming chaos of moral inequity, injustice and manifold evil presented in the world of human life. Once admit the theory to be true, and all the difficulties in regard to moral justice vanish."4
In the first half of his statement Alger makes a valid point: reincarnation does provide a specific explanation for situations of injustice, inequality and suffering. The victimized person has committed offenses in previous lives and must therefore pay the consequences. It is a theory which very much appeals to the deep questions of people who cry out and ask "Why?" or "Why me?"
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But herein lies the danger. It is an attempt to reduce the deepest and most painful human questions and problems to an easily manageable formula. While it does provide a convenient solution to the problem of injustice and suffering, it only pushes the real problem of theodicy and the origin of evil further out of reach and perpetuates it through endless cycles of karmic action and reaction.
The second half of Alger's statement, his remark that "all difficulties in regard to moral justice vanish," is both naive and incorrect. For even if we are able to account for the unjust suffering of individuals, the root problem of the origin of evil remains. Nor does the philosophic system on which reincarnation is based ever provide any final solution to the problem of evil and suffering; for each new regeneration of the universe gives rise to the same old status quo. In this respect reincarnation is a totally inadequate response to the problem of evil.
The Christian faith approaches the problem of evil and suffering quite differently. Instead of indicating a specific reason for each person's individual plight, biblical revelation appeals to the sovereignty and mercy of God. This is well illustrated in the story of the man born blind (John 9:1-3). When specifically asked about this very problem ("Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"), Jesus did not engage in past-life speculations: "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him." Jesus then restored his sight. The man's individual situation is viewed as a symptom of the total human condition, which Jesus came to redeem. Why the blind man had suffered more than others we are not told.
Paul also addressed this problem in the book of Romans: "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! . . . But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me thus?' Has the potter no right over the clay,
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to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?" (9:14, 20-21). Paul responds to the problem by appealing to the sovereignty of God as expressed in Christian theism: God is the all-powerful and all-wise Creator, a personal God who actively wills things, as opposed to the impersonal God of reincarnationists that is in bondage to its own nature in perpetuity. In Romans 11:33-34, the apostle rests his case:
O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
"For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"
Who then are we to presume to understand the infinite wisdom and complexity of the divine purposes? God's plan will unfold perfectly and in its time; it is our duty to love and obey him. It is our desire to place ourselves at the center of the universe and be as God that has been our undoing.
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WAS REINCARNATION DE- CANONIZED?
Following in the footsteps of "Christian" reincarnationists like Edgar Cayce and Jeane Dixon, the typical Western advocate of the theory today does not regard his or her belief system as an opposition to the teachings of true Christianity. In fact, it is believed to have been the original faith of the Jews and the sect known as the Essenes, as well as that of the Apostles and the fathers of the early Church. The doctrine of reincarnation was even claimed to have been a pre-eminent concept in the Bible before it was conspired against and deleted from the scriptural canon by a Church council that viewed it as a threat to their authority over the average layman. Amusingly, reincarnationists can never seem to reach an agreement on which council was actually responsible for this alleged censure. Some blame Constantine and the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., while others point to the Fifth Ecumenical Council, or Constantinople II, in 553 A.D. under Justinian. It should be noted, however, that a careful study of Church history clearly indicates that reincarnation was not even a matter of discussion at either council, much less removed from the Bible by overzealous fundamentalists.
Furthermore, there is no indication that the contents of our present Bible are lacking in any way from what was included in its original text. With over 24,000 partial or complete manuscripts in existence, the new Testament is the best documented literary account of ancient history that we possess today (coming in a distant second is The Iliad and the Odyssey, by Homer, with 643 contradictory manuscripts). Even if all of the new Testament manuscripts were somehow destroyed, it would still be possible to reconstruct all but approximately ten verses from the writings of the early Church fathers, all done prior to the third century.
THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS
The earliest recorded Christian reference to reincarnation is a passing remark made by Justin Martyr about 150 A.D. in his Dialogue With Trypho IV. He is claimed by many reincarnationists to have herein stated his belief that human souls were repeatedly reborn into other bodies, but a look at the quotation in question reveals otherwise:
"Therefore souls neither see God nor transmigrate into other bodies; for they would know that so they are punished, and they would be afraid to commit even the most trivial sin afterwards."
A few decades later, in his exhaustive attack on the Gnostics, Against Heresies, Irenaeus also criticized reincarnational beliefs, pointing out the lack of recollection of past lives on the part of the general public. Reincarnation was likewise unfavorably discussed in the second century by Tertullian (On the Soul, chapters 23-24, 29-35), and Arnobius (Against the Heathen II, chapter 16). Other opponents were Lactantius in the third century (The Divine Institutes, Book III, chapters 18-19), Gregory of Nyssa in the fourth century (On the Making of Man, chapter 29), and Augustine in the fifth century (The City of God, Book X chapter 30).
The Church Father most often cited by reincarnationists is Origen, who not only was known in the third century for his brilliant scholarship, but for his theological speculations as well. However, though he did indeed hold to the doctrine of pre-existence of human souls before their physical births, this can in no way be misconstrued to indicate that he believed in successive incarnations following the initial one. This he demonstrated in his voluminous Against Celsus, in which he wrote:
"But on these subjects much, and that of a mystical kind, might be said; in keeping with which is the following: ‘It is good to keep close the secret of a king’, -in order that the doctrine of the entrance of souls into bodies (not, however, that of the transmigration from one body into another) may be thrown before the common understanding... (parenthesis in original)."
Toward the end of his life, Origen also produced a commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, in which he discussed at great length whether or not John the Baptist was the reincarnation of Elijah. His conclusion on the matter was undeniably apparent:
"In this place (Matthew 17:10-13) it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I should fall into the dogma of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures."
It is quite obvious from the above statement that Origen did by no means support reincarnation or even suggest its possibility. Incidentally, Origen was posthumously declared a heretic because he taught against eternal hell.
DID JESUS TEACH REINCARNATION?
Reincarnationists that profess a Christian faith, are, of course, forced to believe that Jesus Christ Himself accepted and promoted transmigration of souls, which He allegedly was taught in India during the eighteen "silent years" of his adolescence and early adulthood. Most often cited in support of this claim, is the conversation between Christ and Nicodemus found in the third chapter of the Gospel of John:
"(Nicodemus) came to Jesus at night and said, ‘Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.’
"In reply, Jesus declared, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again (John 3:2-3)."
Erroneously resorting to a literal method of interpretation of the above, reincarnationists insist that when Jesus spoke of being "born again", He was actually implying cyclic rebirth. However, if this indeed was His implication, it unfortunately was entirely lost on Nicodemus:
"How can a man be born when he is old?... Surely, he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born (verse 4)!"
Instead of rebuking the Jewish religious leader for his lack of understanding of the presumably wide-spread doctrine of reincarnation, Jesus then went on to explain the true meaning of His words:
"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the Kingdom of God unless He is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at My saying, you must be born again (verses 5-7)."
In the above passage, Jesus made it quite clear that He was not speaking of a physical birth, or a series of them for that matter, but one of a spiritual nature. Actually, the correct rendering of this text from the original Greek should use "born from above", for that is precisely what is involved. Mortal human beings mate and bring forth offspring that were mortal and subject to death like themselves ("flesh gives birth to flesh" - verse 6.) However, the "birth" that Jesus spoke of was not achieved through natural reproductive means, but as an event initiated by God alone (John 1:13). When a person is "born again" as a child of God through faith in Christ’s redemptive provision of Himself on the cross, the Holy Spirit imparts to him a new nature that is not physical and therefore perishable (I Peter 1:23). Continued rebirth does not necessitate itself, for the individual has already entered God’s Kingdom of eternal life (John 5:24).
WAS JOHN THE BAPTIST ELIJAH?
Reincarnationists further attempt to solicit the endorsement of Christ for their doctrine by claiming that Jesus had alluded to His belief in reincarnation many times in his private conversations with His twelve disciples. One of these instances are said to be found in Matthew, in which Jesus allegedly taught that John the Baptist was actually the reincarnation of the Old Testament prophet Elijah:
"The disciples asked (Jesus), "Why then do the teachers of the Law say that Elijah must come first?"
"Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and restores all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished..."
Then the disciples understood that He was talking to them about John the Baptist (Matthew 17:10-13. Parenthesis added)."
It is quite understandable how this passage can be misunderstood to support reincarnation. Frequently, the phrase "this is" is actually intended to be understood as "this represents", and "this is like" as "this is a fulfillment of". Examples of this literary method of expression can be seen in such passages as Matthew 26:26, Hebrews 12:29, I Corinthians 10:4, etc. It would not be unreasonable, therefore, to assume that John came merely as the functional, not literal, fulfillment of Elijah’s ministry, operating in the "power and spirit" of the prophet (Luke 1:17), as also did Elisha (II Kings 2:15).
The absurdity of the reincarnationists’ association of John with Elijah can be more clearly seen when another important fact is realized. In II Kings 2:11, we are informed that the prophet never experienced a physical death, thereby rendering his soul unavailable for future rebirth in the body of the Judean baptist. Furthermore, he showed himself to be still alive and in his original body on the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:30-33). And finally, to dispel any remaining doubt, when asked, "Are you Elijah?", John plainly answered, "I am not (John 1:21)".
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"As above, so below" Hermes.
Great great posts, Doc. I will have to reread to contemplate many of the points:
[:)]
I would just like to add that the material world mirrors the Kingdom and I think fear arises, because we may equate the loss of personality with the loss of individuality - (speaking of spiritual progress). For example, one day, we may be angry, head-strong, rash. Through the grace of God, we become peaceful, patient, humble; although the personality has changed, we haven't forgotten who we once were, nor will we in the next world, as Abdul Baha states.
"Some one has asked a question on personality. From what source does it come? What are its attributes? What are its characteristic features or aspects?
Personality is of two kinds. One is the natural or God-given personality which the western thinkers call individuality, the inner aspect of man which is not subject to change; and the other personality is the result of acquired arts, sciences and virtues with which man is decorated. When the God-given virtues are thus adorned, we have character. When the infinite effulgences of
God are revealed in the individuality of man, then divine attributes, invisible in the rest of creation, become manifest through him and one man becomes the manifestor of knowledge, that is, divine knowledge is revealed to him; another is the dawning place of power; a third is trustworthy; again, one is faithful, and another is merciful. All these attributes are the characteristics of the unchangeable individuality and are divine in origin. These qualifications are loved by all, for they are emanations of the father. They are the significance of his name and attributes, the direct rays of which illuminate the very essence of these qualifications.
As regards the personality which is the result of acquired virtues, let us take this mirror as an example: In the beginning it was a piece of black stone; now, through the process of purification, it has become a mirror and has reflecting power and displays its innate perfections so that they are clearly visible to all. The rock was endowed with a distinct individuality which acquired a personality through the process of education.
The individuality of each created thing is based upon divine wisdom, or in the creation of God there is no defect. However, personality has no element of permanence. It is a slightly changeable quality in man which can be turned in either direction. For if he acquire praiseworthy virtues, these strengthen the individuality of man and call forth his hidden forces; but if he acquire defects, the beauty and simplicity of the individuality will be lost to him and its God-given qualities will be stifled in the foul atmosphere of self.
It is evident that every human being is primarily pure, for God-created qualities are deposited in him. If man extend his individuality by acquiring sciences, he will become a wise man; if he be engaged in praiseworthy deeds and strive for real knowledge, he will become godlike. If, on the other hand, when God has created him to be just and he practices injustice, he denies his God-given attribute. Man was created to be merciful, he becomes a tyrant; he was created to be kind to all the children of men and given the capacity to confer life, but he becomes the destroyer of life.
quote:
Doc: The absurdity of the reincarnationists’ association of John with Elijah can be more clearly seen when another important fact is realized. In II Kings 2:11, we are informed that the prophet never experienced a physical death, thereby rendering his soul unavailable for future rebirth in the body of the Judean baptist. Furthermore, he showed himself to be still alive and in his original body on the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:30-33). And finally, to dispel any remaining doubt, when asked, "Are you Elijah?", John plainly answered, "I am not (John 1:21)".
I just had to add this quote, since it was nearly verbatim to your above post.
"Each nation has awaited the re-incarnation of its greatest Prophet in accordance with its religious belief. The Jews await the return of Moses as the Messiah; the Christians, Christ; the Mohammedans, Husein, son of Fatima and the twelve Imams. They awaited the return of the soul and of the personality. When they asked if John the Baptist was Elijah he answered, "Yes"; and when they interrogated John Baptist, he replied "No". Both replies were the truth. The reply of Christ was spiritual, that is John the Baptist returned in the same spirit of God, but not in the same soul, but John the Baptist meant that his soul and his body were not the same as those of Elijah." Abdul Baha
[:)]
VIL
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Hi Philip,
Thanks once again for a most detailed reply.
quote:
An Angel is a soul that has reached a level of perfection. There are many ranks of Angels, of Buddhas, of Masters, Devas, etc... call them whatever you wish. Every Angel is someone who has given up his self (ego) will and now performs the will of god, they were created by god and now they serve that intelligence called god... this is why angels have no "self" or egoic will...
This is very interesting for us in this forum as we have already had a discussion in another thread about whether Angels are perfected humans:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1677#14974
This thread (linked to here) started by me asking if anyone knew why I had a large pair of Golden wings on my back somewhat resembling the wingspan of a golden eagle if they were stretched out!? Here:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1677
You seem to have a great deal of knowledge in these matters. Can you throw any light on this? Are the angels that we are talking about here, the ones that fell, the same as the ones often portrayed as having wings? Could it be possible for an animal with intellect (a son of the devil) living on the earth today, to be descended from a fallen angel, and could they still manifest wings in this manner?
quote:
No, my experience is that Jesus exists. He is alive, he is working in secret.
I would agree with you here, purely from an intuitive level. Can you throw any light on what spiritual person or power I was contacting in this dream:
quote:
A few years ago I had an amazing dream. I was in a vast black hall standing in front of a man who I thought was Jesus. He was about one hundred feet tall and wearing a purple robe. I was lying face down and holding on to the hem of his robe. The energy coming from him was so incredibly powerful that I did not dare raise my face and only saw the purple robe. I can still remember what the energy felt like. It was like all those words used in the Bible to describe God: Love, Power, Peace, Grace, Light. His robe seemed to be just as charged with this energy as he was. It washed over and through me like a river. Then I woke up.
Or maybe it was just a dream[;)]
I have mentioned this dream before in another thread, here:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1625#12480
Yours
Christi
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Greetings friends.
The discussion on reincarnation has prompted me to do a little research on the world's religions:
Hinduism:
Just as a person puts on new garments after discarding the old ones, similarly Atma acquires new bodies after casting away the old bodies. (2.22) The Bhagavad-Gita
Islam:
"I died as mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man,
To soar with angels blest;
But even from angelhood I must pass on ..."
-excerpt from Masnawi, by Hazrat
The Quaran:
[2:28] How can you disbelieve in GOD when you were dead and He gave you life, then He puts you to death, then He brings you back to life, then to Him you ultimately return?
[9:35] The day will come when their gold and silver will be heated in the fire of Hell, then used to burn their foreheads, their sides, and their backs: "This is what you hoarded for yourselves, so taste what you have hoarded."
http://www.lubbockonline.com/images/072400/cattle_branding.jpg
[4:56] Surely, those who disbelieve in our revelations, we will condemn them to the hellfire. Whenever their skins are burnt, we will give them new skins. Thus, they will suffer continuously. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
http://www.cicadamania.com/cicadas/wp-content/chrism2006.jpg
[5:60] Say, "Let me tell you who are worse in the sight of GOD: those who are condemned by GOD after incurring His wrath until He made them monkeys and pigs, and the idol worshipers. These are far worse, and farther from the right path."
[73:12] We have severe punishments, and Hell.
[73:13] Food that can hardly be swallowed, and painful retribution.
http://www.blackbearheaven.com/snake/pig3.jpg
[111:3] He has incurred the blazing Hell.
[111:4] Also his wife, who led the persecution.
[111:5] She will be (resurrected) with a rope of thorns around her neck
http://www.cobankopegi.com/t-col.jpg
Sikhism:
"Shalok: He wanders around in the four quarters and in the ten directions, according to the dictates of his karma.
Pleasure and pain, liberation and reincarnation, O Nanak, come according to one's pre-ordained destiny."
-The Guru Granth Sahib Page 253 Shabad 792
Buddhism:
"Through many a birth wandered I, seeking the builder of this house. Sorrow full indeed is birth again and again." - Gautama Shakyamuni
Taoism:
Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point. Existence without limitation is space. Continuity without a starting point is time. There is birth, there is death, there is issuing forth, there is entering in. That through which one passes in and out without seeing its form, that is the Portal of God. -Chuang Tzu 23
Judaism:
"All souls are subject to revolutions."
"Men do not know the way they have been judged in all time." - Zohar II, 199b
"If she, the soul, be pure, then she shall obtain favor ... but if she has been defiled, then she shall wander for a time in pain and despair... until the days of her purification." -Kether Malkuth
Gnosticism:
"The counterfeit of the spirit is stationed without the soul, watching over it and dogging it, and the rulers bind it to the soul with their seal and with their bonds, and force it to commit mischiefs unremittingly, that it may be their slave forever, and be under their subjection forever in the transmigration into bodies: And they seal this counterfeit to the soul, so that it may be in every kind of sin and all the desires of the world. It is because of this that I have brought the mysteries into the world, which break all the bonds of the counterfeit of the spirit, which make the soul free and ransom it from the hands of its parents, the rulers, and transform it into pure light, to bring it into the kingdom of the True Father, the first everlasting mystery." - The Pistis Sophia
Christianity:
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecclesiastes 1:9, The Bible
That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past. Ecclesiastes 3:15, The Bible
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out .. Revelation 3:12, The Bible
AYPism ;):
It has been said that we can leave this realm when we have grown to love it unconditionally. That is not a mental construct, but a state of being arrived at through purification and opening -- evolution. Lesson 262 - Beyond the Cycle of Birth and Death
Feel free to add to this list..
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Great pics, Chiron and it seems apropos for the type of people that Muhammad had to endure at His time and is apparent by the language necessary for the limited intellectual capacity of that generation:
"These Arab tribes were in the lowest depths of savagery and barbarism, and in comparison with them the savages of Africa and wild Indians of America were as advanced as a Plato. The savages of America do not bury their children alive as these Arabs did their daughters, glorying in it as being an honorable thing to do. [The Banu-Tamim, one of the most barbarous Arab tribes, practiced this odious custom.] Thus many of the men would threaten their wives, saying, "If a daughter is born to you, I will kill you." Even down to the present time the Arabs dread having daughters. Further, a man was permitted to take a thousand women, and most husbands had more than ten wives in their household. When these tribes made war, the one which was victorious would take the women and children of the vanquished tribe captive and treat them as slaves."
http://bahai-library.org/writings/abdulbaha/saq/07.html
I'm sure it was similar in King David's time and also that of that of Moses - who, as a very last measure, destroyed the Tyrannical Egyptians.
[:)]
VIL
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quote:
Originally posted by ChristiAre the angels that we are talking about here, the ones that fell, the same as the ones often portrayed as having wings? Could it be possible for an animal with intellect (a son of the devil) living on the earth today, to be descended from a fallen angel, and could they still manifest wings in this manner?
Well, there is in reality a lot of fallen bodhisattvas roaming earth today. Some are rising again and some are falling. An example of the former is Wagner; and example of the latter is Hitler.
When students hear about this, many start to imagine that they "must" be one of them. That can cause problems.
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2
"THE IGNEOUS WINGS
"When the Solar and Lunar atoms unite at the base of the spinal colunm, the Igneous Serpent of our Magical Powers awakens. The Serpent ascends slowly amidst the ineffable delights of the Perfect Matrimony. The Serpent enjoys the enchantment of Love.
"When the Serpent reaches the height of the heart, we receive the Igneous Wings, the wings of the Caduceus of Mercury. Then the Serpent has feathers. This is the Quetzal, the Serpent Bird, the Feath ered Serpent.
"Every Initiate who transforms himself into the Serpent Bird can fly to the superior worlds. He can enter the different regions of the Kingdom, travel in the astral body at will, travel with the super-astral vehicles, travel with his physical body within the fourth
dimension. He is a Serpent Bird.
"The Serpent Bird can escape from a sealed tomb, walk upon the waters as was demonstrated by Jesus the Christ, pass through a rock from side to side without injury as was proven by the disciples of Buddha, can fly with his physical body through the air etc., etc." -The Perfect Matrimony
When someone has that, the wings, they know it. They know what it is, they know what it represents. It is the solar mind, awakened, pure and clean.
Unless you are able to walk on the water, walk through stone, etc., your experience was just a gift. When one actually possesses something, they can use that at their will. When things just sort of happen, without full consciousness of what and why it is happening, then obviously the "self" is not what is in control. Something else is.
That "something" can be divided into two basic categories: the subjective powers of the mind (ego), or powers of "god." To be able to discern between the two should always be paramount for the student. No student should ever take any experience at face value. That is how mythomaniacs are born.
A lot of experiences can be misleading, even if they are objective and real. For example, the whole Krishnamurti case.
"A great conflict occurred inside the Theosophical Society during those times when Annie Besant was occupying the presidency of this marvelous organization, whose founder was the great Initiate Helena Petrovna Blavatsky.
"The problem that presented itself was the Krishnamurti case.
"Lady Besant lifted her finger aloft in order to asseverate to the four winds that the Hindu boy Krishnamurti was the living Reincarnation of Jesus Christ.
"The great clairvoyant Leadbeater and other eminent Theosophists totally agreed with Lady Besant. All of them were asserting that the Hindustani boy was Jesus Christ newly reincarnated.
"We still remember the foundation of that order named The Star of the East whose unique purpose was to welcome the Messiah. Later on, Krishnamurti himself dissolved it.
"A division occurred within the bosom of the Theosophical Society in that epoch.
"Some of them were asserting that Krishnamurti was the Messiah. Others did not accept such a concept; thus they withdrew from the Theosophical Society.
"The powerful illuminated clairvoyant, eminent intellectual, founder of the Anthroposophic Society, Dr. Rudolf Steiner, appears among those who withdrew. The work of Rudolf Steiner is grandiose. His books are wells of profound wisdom.
"The Spaniard group Marco Aurelio also withdrew from the Theosophical Society.
"The incision that occurred within the bosom of that famous Theosophical Society was a true tragedy.
"We need to analyze the Krishnamurti case."
You can read the rest here:
http://www.gnosticteachings.org/content/view/195/65/
Concerning your other experience, much of the same can be said. I am not attempting to invalidate your experiences, only to stress that we need to be profound in order to comprehend them.
There are experiences that one may have, and it will not be for another 15 years before that experience makes sense. But our mind just wants to take that experience, immediately label it this or that with some sort of authority, desire for it to happen again, yet never really observe it or comprehend it.
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL:
"Each nation has awaited the re-incarnation of its greatest Prophet in accordance with its religious belief. The Jews await the return of Moses as the Messiah...." Abdul Baha
Hi VIL!
Abdul Baha is definitely off target on this part of his quote. The Jews await the Coming of Mashiach/Messiah for the first time, not for his return, and this is NOT expected to be Moses. LOL [:D]
"...the belief in a messiah and a messianic age is so deeply rooted in Jewish tradition that a statement concerning the Messiah became the most famous of Maimonides's Thirteen Principles of Faith: "And Ma'amin, I believe with a full heart in the coming of the Messiah, and even though he may tarry, I will wait for him on any day that he may come." In the concentration camps, it is reported that many Jews sang the Ani Ma'amin while walking to the gas chambers.
On the one hand, ironic jokes and skepticism; on the other, passionate faith: What then is the Jewish position on the Messiah?
Most significantly, Jewish tradition affirms at least five things about the Messiah. He will: be a descendant of King David, gain sovereignty over the land of Israel, gather the Jews there from the four corners of the earth, restore them to full observance of Torah law, and, as a grand finale, bring peace to the whole world. Concerning the more difficult tasks some prophets assign him, such as Isaiah's vision of a messianic age in which the wolf shall dwell with the lamb and the calf with the young lion (Isaiah 11:6), Maimonides believes that Isaiah's language is metaphorical (for example, only that enemies of the Jews, likened to the wolf, will no longer oppress them). A century later, Nachmanides rejected Maimonides's rationalism and asserted that Isaiah meant precisely what he said: that in the messianic age even wild animals will become domesticated and sweettempered. A more recent Jewish "commentator," Woody Allen, has cautioned: "And the lamb and the wolf shall lie down together, but the lamb won't get any sleep."
The Jewish belief that the Messiah's reign lies in the future has long distinguished Jews from their Christian neighbors who believe, of course, that the Messiah came two thousand years ago in the person of Jesus." Jewish Virtual Library
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The Thirteen Articles of Maimonides
1. The existence of God;
2. His unity;
3. His spirituality;
4. His eternity;
5. God alone the object of worship;
6. Revelation through his prophets;
7. The preeminence of Moses among the Prophets;
8. God's law given on Mount Sinai;
9. The immutability of the Torah as God's Law;
10. God's foreknowledge of men's actions;
11. Retribution;
12. The coming of the Messiah;
13. Resurrection.
Light to All ~
Doc
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"When they asked if John the Baptist was Elijah he answered, "Yes"; and when they interrogated John Baptist, he replied "No". Both replies were the truth. The reply of Christ was spiritual, that is John the Baptist returned in the same spirit of God, but not in the same soul, but John the Baptist meant that his soul and his body were not the same as those of Elijah." Abdul Baha
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"And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No". JOHN 1: 19-21
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Hey, Doc, from the above you will see that the Jewish Leaders at that time believed in reincarnation. Abdul Baha is not in error. I think the discrepancy lies in the word "awaits" vs. "awaited", since the Jewish Leaders, of the past, shaped the world of the Jewish People of this day and age, since they still do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Herein lies the confusion. Abdul Baha stated, "has awaited"... followed by "awaits" and then, "They "awaited" the return of the soul and of the personality". In context:
"Each nation has awaited the re-incarnation of its greatest Prophet in accordance with its religious belief. The Jews await the return of Moses as the Messiah; the Christians, Christ; the Mohammedans, Husein, son of Fatima and the twelve Imams. They awaited the return of the soul and of the personality. When they asked if John the Baptist was Elijah he answered, "Yes"; and when they interrogated John Baptist, he replied "No". Both replies were the truth. The reply of Christ was spiritual, that is John the Baptist returned in the same spirit of God, but not in the same soul, but John the Baptist meant that his soul and his body were not the same as those of Elijah." Abdul Baha
And if modern day Jewish Leaders had questioned past beliefs of their predecessors, they would have to re-evaluate their stance or refutation of Yeshua as the Messiah:
[:)]
quote:
In Matthew 11:13, Jesus states: “For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.” (Jesus calls him “John” not “Elijah.” Elijah is included with 'all the prophets' who came before John. In verse 14, Jesus says “and if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.” John wore a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt and preached in the wilderness. This was the same attire that Elijah wore (2 Kings 1:8), bringing attention to the Jews of the similarity of John's mission to that of Elijah's. Prophecy has many patterns and sometime dual or more fulfillments.
Malachi had predicted that before the Messiah's appearing, Elijah would come as a forerunner (Mal. 4:5-in relation to the day of the Lord). If the people had been willing to receive Jesus as the Messiah, then John would have filled the role of Elijah. Jesus then tells them to heed His words. If John fulfills Elijah's coming then Jesus is the Messiah.
Jesus pointed to John the Baptist as a type of fulfillment of Elijah's coming but he was not a reincarnation.
http://www.letusreason.org/NAM2.htm
And it's been said, some Levitical Priests or other Orthodox Jewish Leaders actually expected the return of Moses, as there are many articles stating that the Messiah would come again:
Salo Wittmayer Baron (b. Galicia, Austria-Hungary 1895; d.1989), American Jewish historian and educator, taught for several decades at Columbia University (New York), holding the first professorship of Jewish history in a U.S. university. His major work is the monumental Social and Religious History of the Jews:
"Experience, however, had taught that God performs miracles only through men, for example, Moses and Elijah. The new miracle would also have to be accomplished through some one man.
The levitical priests probably looked for a return of Moses".
http://www.jhom.com/topics/david/messiah.html
"Orthodox Jews expect the Messiah to return, the dead to be resurrected, and there to be everlasting retribution".
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Religions_And_Their_Source/3._Present_Day_Religions/1._Some_Major_Religions/1.5_Judaism
Founders: Prof. Richard Landes, PHD from Princeton University, Dr. O'Leary, undergraduate degree in the comparative study of religion at Harvard University:
"The original model for the Messiah was actually Moses, who led his people, the Israelites, out of Egypt and away from the tyrannical and unjust rule of Pharaoh. He was both a spiritual and political leader and had the qualities expected of the future Messiah. Many connections are made in literature and scripture between the life and actions of Moses and those of the expected Messiah."
http://www.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/judaism/jewishmessiah.html
http://www.mille.org/people.html
"As Moses prepares to leave this world, God shows him the flow of his final incarnation. When he returns as the Mashiach, Moses will redeem the world and reveal the Torah of the Mashiach -- the inner depths of the heart of God."
http://www.inner.org/audio/aid/E_037.htm
I had to add this:
[:)][:)][:)]
"Pasteur Monnier: Is the unification of religion possible? If so, when and how and through what channel will it be realised?
'Abdu'l-Bahá: When the devotees of religion cast aside their dogmas and ritualism, the unification of religion will be in sight, and the realities of the holy books will become unveiled. In these days misunderstandings are rife, but when these misunderstandings and blind imitations are relinquished, the sun of reality shall dawn.
When in San Francisco(26) I was invited to speak in a Jewish synagogue. I said, "For about two thousand years, between you and the Christians, there have been friction and opposition, owing to the misunderstandings which today have blinded the eyes. You conceive that His Holiness the Christ was the enemy of Moses, the destroyer of the laws of the Pentateuch, the abrogator of the commandments of the Bible. When we investigate the reality we observe that Christ appeared at a time when according to your own historians, the laws of the Torah were forgotten; the foundation of religion and faith was shaken. Nebuchadnezzar had come, burning the context [contents] of the whole Bible,(27) and taking into captivity many Jewish tribes. Alexander the Great came for the second time, and Titus, the Roman general, devastated the land for the third time, killed the Jews, pillaged their property and imprisoned their children.
At such a time, under such gloomy conditions, His Holiness the Christ appeared. The first thing he said was: 'The Torah is the divine book; Moses is the man of God; Aaron, Solomon, Isaiah, Zechariah and all the Israelitish prophets [prophets of Israel] are valid and true.' Through all regions he spread the Old Testament, which for fifteen hundred years had not been sent out of Palestine, but Christ promulgated it in all countries. Were it not for Christ the name of Moses and his book would not have reached America; for during fifteen hundred years the Torah had been translated but once. It was Christ's seal of approval which caused it to be translated into six hundred languages. Now be just, was Christ the friend or the enemy of Moses?
You say he abrogated the Torah, but I say he promulgated the Torah, the ten commandments and all the questions which belong to its moral world. But he changed the following: That for a small theft one must cut of the hand.(28) If a person blind another, he must be blinded, or if he breaks another's teeth, his teeth must be broken. Is it possible nowadays to establish the archaic laws of an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth? Christ changed only that part of the Mosaic religion which did not accord with the spirit of his time. He had no desire to abolish the Torah.
Is it not true that the Christians believe that Moses was the [High] prophet of God, and all the Israelitish seers were the messengers of God, and the Bible [Torah] the book of God?(29) Has this belief of theirs harmed their religion? If you say from your heart that Christ is the word of God, then all these differences will cease. The persecutions of the last two thousand years have been on account of this fact, that you were not willing to proclaim these two words. But I hope that it is proven to you that Moses had no better friend than His Holiness the Christ."
http://bahai-library.org/provisionals/abdulbaha.xity.html
[:)]
VIL
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Hi Philip,
Thanks again for your advice here. Concerning the wings, I think you are probably right, that it was a glimpse of something that will unfold more. This has been the case with all other energy changes that have occured in my body/ mind. First there is an initial glimpse, and then the currents become gradually stronger and more permanently established. So far I cannot walk on water, or walk through stone, so obviously in my case the serpent has not reached the height of the heart yet.
It sounds like it will be quite a lot of fun when it does[:D] Unfortunately I probably won't be relating my experiences about it on this forum.... the world isn't ready etc.[:0]
As for Krishnamurti.... It is of course possible that he was Jesus Christ, born again. And it is possible that what he did, concerning the dissolution of the Order of the Star of the East, was exactly what the born again Christ would have done in that situation. In one act, he disassociated himself completely from both the Theosophical society and the trappings of the Christian Church. He left himself completely free to teach his message of Love to humanity. Sound familiar? Jesus of Nazareth disassociated himself from his Jewish roots in the same manner.
Just a possibility[;)]
Christi
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Hello VIL!
With all due respect for the writings and teachings of Abdul Baha, the awaited Mashiach/Messiah of the Jews is generally expected to be a descendant of David's Royal bloodline, according to God's promise in His Covenant with David, as outlined in the Holy Scriptures and referenced time and again by the Old Testament Prophets. Moses lived prior to David....was therefore not a descendant of David, and is NOT who is expected to come as Mashiach. In fact, Jewish Scriptural references to Mashiach identify only the characteristics of Mashiach, not a specific name identity of anyone in particular as the Awaited Mashiach. It wouldn't take much research to verify this, if you're willing to depend on actual Jewish sources in addition to the writings of Abdul Baha. Here's another example:
THE UNIFYING HOPE: AWAITING THE MESSIAH
by Mr. Yosef Ben Shlomo HaKohen
May the Compassionate One make us worthy of reaching the days of the Messiah and life everlasting. [from Birkat HaMazon/Grace After Meals]
The Days of the Messiah:
A staff will emerge from the stump of Jesse (the father of David), and a shoot will sprout from his roots. The spirit of the Compassionate One will rest upon Him -- a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and strength, a spirit of knowledge and reverence for the Compassionate One. He will be imbued with a spirit of reverence for the Compassionate One; and he will not need to judge by what his eyes see nor decide by what his ears hear. He will judge the destitute with righteousness, and decide with fairness for the humble of the earth. He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. Righteousness will be the girdle round his loins, and faith will be the girdle round his waist. The wolf will live with the sheep, and the leopard will lie down with the kid; and a calf, a lion whelp and a fatling together, and a young child will lead them. A cow and bear will graze and their young will lie down together; and a lion, like cattle, will eat hay. A suckling will play by a viper's hole; and a newly weaned child will stretch his hand towards an adder's lair. They will neither injure nor destroy in all of My sacred mountain; for the earth will be filled with knowledge of the Compassionate One as water covering the sea bed. [Yeshayahu/Isaiah 11:1-9]
"He will strike the world with the rod of his mouth" -- with the strength of his Torah teachings. [Commentary of Rabbi S.R. Hirsch]
The Prophets teach that the Messiah will be a descendant of King David, the son of Jesse, from the tribe of Judah. He will be a great Torah teacher and sovereign who will inspire Israel and all the peoples to serve the Compassionate One in a spirit of unity. Some people have difficulty imagining that one great person could become the "Messiah" and cause a radical change in the world. A study of history reveals, however, that there have been a number of individuals who helped bring about great changes in the world, whether for good or for bad.
The belief in the coming of the Messiah is deeply embedded within the consciousness of the Jewish People. In his book, "World of Our Fathers", Irving Howe describes the messianic yearnings of an earlier generation of Jewish socialists and progressive activists. Although their ideology was secular, their yearning, hope, and struggle for a better world was rooted in the ancient Jewish belief that the Messiah will eventually come and inaugurate a new age of justice and peace. In one chapter (page 454), Howe quotes from a poem by the Yiddish poet, Aaron Zeitlin, which refers to this belief:
"Being a Jew means running forever to God, even if you are His betrayer. Means expecting to hear any day, even if you are a nay sayer, the blare of Messiah's horn".
The Talmud states that on our individual "Judgment Day" -- after the soul departs from the body -- one of the questions we will be asked is: "Did you anticipate the redemption?" [Babylonian Talmud/Tractate Shabbos 31a]. Why, however, should this question be asked of us? Is it a mitzvah -- Divine mandate -- to believe in the coming of the Messiah and the future redemption? An answer can be found in the first of the "Ten Mandates" which were spoken at Mount Sinai:
I am the Compassionate One, your God, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. [Shemot/Exodus 20:2]
Maimonides, in his classical work, "The Book of Mitzvos", cites this verse as the source for the mitzvah to believe in the Compassionate One. The verse, however, does not speak of the Compassionate One Who created the world; it speaks of the Compassionate One Who is the Redeeming One, Who liberated us from the bondage of Egypt. According to Rabbi Isaac of Corbeil, a 13th century sage, this verse calls upon us to not only believe that the Compassionate One redeemed us in the past, but to also believe that He will redeem us in the future.
In his respected work on the mitzvos, known as "Sefer Mitzvos Katan", Rabbi Isaac states that the obligation to believe in the coming of the Messiah is rooted in the words, "I am the Compassionate One, your God, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt"; for the Exodus from Egypt is a testimony to the ongoing Divine providence in human history. The verse which calls upon us to believe in the Redeeming One specifically mentions our Exodus from Egypt, because this Divine act of physical and spiritual redemption is to make us aware that Divine providence is leading the People of Israel and all humanity to their ultimate physical and spiritual redemption.
Our faith in the future redemption of Israel and humanity is a "gift of hope" that we can share with the other peoples of the earth. As Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, a 19th century sage, writes:
The entire world thirsts for redemption. Grief and misery, reigning in both huts and palaces, arouse messianic longings in every heart. It is not only Israel whose redemption depends upon the rebuilding of Zion; and surely, their confident expectation that the redemption will indeed come about is not the least valuable dowry which the Jew brings with him into the community of nations. [See "The Hirsch Haggadah" -- pages 282-83]
We are therefore awaiting the arrival of the true Messiah who will inaugurate the new age of enlightenment and unity. Even though he may tarry, we are not to lose hope, for when the hour arrives for the birth of the messianic age, he will not delay. In this spirit, the prophet Habakkuk proclaims:
For there is yet another hazon -- vision -- for the appointed time; it will speak of the end and it will not deceive. Though it may tarry, await it, for it will surely come; it will not delay. [Habakkuk 2:3]
The Prophets also indicate, however, that we can hasten the arrival of the messianic age through fulfilling the life-giving and unifying mitzvos of the Torah. Among the mitzvos that they stressed are the mitzvos of justice which prevent us from hurting and oppressing others, and the mitzvos of "tzedakah" -- the sharing of our resources with those in need. In this spirit, the Prophet proclaimed, "Zion will be redeemed through justice, and those who return to her through tzedakah" [Yeshayahu/Isaiah 1:27].
The Prophets also stressed the mitzvos related to "Shabbos" -- the Sacred Seventh Day. These mitzvos serve as a reminder that the earth and its resources belong to the Unifying One. On Shabbos, we are to refrain from exerting human mastery over the earth and its creatures, and we are to also refrain from commerce. Through the mitzvos of Shabbos, we remind ourselves that the human being is the "custodian", and not the owner of the earth's resources. Through the mitzvos of tzedakah, we learn how to share these resources with others.
We are therefore not to passively await the salvation of the messianic age, for the Compassionate One desires that we actively prepare for this new era:
Thus said the Compassionate One: "Guard justice and perform acts of tzedakah, for My salvation is soon to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Happy is the person who does this and the person who holds on to this: Who guards the Shabbos against desecration, and guards his hand against doing any evil". [Yeshayahu/Isaiah 56:1-2]
Shavua Tov from Liberated Yerushaliyim,
Mr. Yosef Ben Shlomo Hakohen
Light to All ~
Doc
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"And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No". JOHN 1: 19-21
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quote:
"Experience, however, had taught that God performs miracles only through men, for example, Moses and Elijah. The new miracle would also have to be accomplished through some one man. The levitical priests probably looked for a return of Moses. The prophets of the north seem to have been so much impressed by the vivid memories, embellished by legends, of the striking demeanor and personality of Elijah. that they hoped for his miraculous return in the same manner as when he "went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
Messiah, the son of David
For the Judean prophets it was natural to expect that the Messiah would be a scion of David, whose house had ruled the country for centuries and in its early years had been blessed by God with power and prosperity. Despite the dynasty's later corruption, there was still a hope that the exalted poet-king would reappear and and establish an age of unrivaled glory. The priests of that age left little, if any writings, and Samaria had vanished as an independent state at the very beginnings of written prophecy. The ideology of the southern prophets, therefore, soon overshadowed all others. The Davidic Messiah became the apotheosized figure on which all later Jewish eschatology centered. Moses, Elijah, and even the Messiah of the house of Joseph so prominent in later times, were relegated to secondary positions".
Salo Wittmayer Baron (b. Galicia, Austria-Hungary 1895; d.1989), American Jewish historian and educator, taught for several decades at Columbia University (New York), holding the first professorship of Jewish history in a U.S. university. His major work is the monumental Social and Religious History of the Jews.
Hey, Doc, there is a clear line drawn between the expectations of the Levitical Priests and the Judean Prophets. Abdul Baha is correct. You are correct. Both Messianic Expectations existed then and also now. I think that we could both continue to quote reputable sources, to ad nauseam, but I don't think that would solve anything, or make the point more clear. The most important point being that we believe that Yeshua was the promised Messiah, as foretold in the books of old, as does Abdul Baha:
[:)]
VIL
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quote:
As for Krishnamurti.... It is of course possible that he was Jesus Christ, born again.
Christi
Well, let me post the rest of that chapter. The first part may have been misleading:
A great conflict occurred inside the Theosophical Society during those times when Annie Besant was occupying the presidency of this marvelous organization, whose founder was the great Initiate Helena Petrovna Blavatsky.
The problem that presented itself was the Krishnamurti case.
Lady Besant lifted her finger aloft in order to asseverate to the four winds that the Hindu boy Krishnamurti was the living Reincarnation of Jesus Christ.
The great clairvoyant Leadbeater and other eminent Theosophists totally agreed with Lady Besant. All of them were asserting that the Hindustani boy was Jesus Christ newly reincarnated.
We still remember the foundation of that order named The Star of the East whose unique purpose was to welcome the Messiah. Later on, Krishnamurti himself dissolved it.
A division occurred within the bosom of the Theosophical Society in that epoch.
Some of them were asserting that Krishnamurti was the Messiah. Others did not accept such a concept; thus they withdrew from the Theosophical Society.
ImageThe powerful illuminated clairvoyant, eminent intellectual, founder of the Anthroposophic Society, Dr. Rudolf Steiner, appears among those who withdrew. The work of Rudolf Steiner is grandiose. His books are wells of profound wisdom.
The Spaniard group Marco Aurelio also withdrew from the Theosophical Society.
The incision that occurred within the bosom of that famous Theosophical Society was a true tragedy.
We need to analyze the Krishnamurti case.
While some Theosophists were convinced that Krishnamurti was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, others stated that he was just an ignorant boy. They stated that the only thing he knew was how to drive an automobile and play tennis, etc.
So, what was the matter? Why did they not agree?
What is most intriguing is that the greatest clairvoyants from the Theosophical Society were divided into two opposite bands.
Absolutely logical questions emerge: why did the clairvoyants divide among themselves?
These clairvoyants saw the internal Being of the Hindu boy. Why then did they not agree? Is it perhaps because some clairvoyants see in one way and other clairvoyants in another distinct way? Is it possible that the clairvoyants contradict among themselves? If the clairvoyants saw the Inner Being of Jiddu Krishnamurti, what was the motivation for their disagreement?
When a thousand people see with their physical sight an object, they say: “This is a table, a chair, a rock, etc., etc.” When they see a person they say: “This is a man or a woman or a child, etc.” Then, what is going on with Clairvoyance? What is the motive in this concrete case of this Hindu boy in which the clairvoyants could not agree in their concepts? There is no doubt that Krishnamurti was a true puzzle for the Theosophical Society.
The most critical thing was to see those clairvoyants fighting among themselves.
This is something that confuses the minds of those that until now are starting these studies.
Krishnamurti fell into skepticism. He remained skeptical for many years; yet, he finally reacted and started his mission.
All of us, the endoteric Gnostic Brethren, proposed ourselves to investigate within the superior worlds the Krishnamurti case.
After many patient works, we arrived at the following conclusions:
* First: Every Human Being is a trio of body, Soul, and Spirit.
* Second: When the Spirit defeats matter, he becomes a Buddha.
* Third: When the Soul purifies and sanctifies itself, then it is called a Bodhisattva.
* Fourth: The Spirit of Krishnamurti is a Buddha.
* Fifth: The Soul of Krishnamurti is a Bodhisattva.
Many Buddhas exist in Asia who have not incarnated the Christ yet.
A ray that unites us to The Absolute exists within every human being.
That ray is our Resplendent Dragon of Wisdom, the Internal Christ, the Sephirotic Crown.
The Buddhas who have not incarnated the internal Christ have not Christified themselves yet.
Krishnamurti’s Buddha has already incarnated his Resplendent Dragon of Wisdom, his Particular Ray, his own Internal Christ.
When Lady Besant, Leadbeater, and other Theosophists studied the Krishnamurti case, they became astonished with the splendid light of that Christified Buddha. However, since they did not know the Christic Esotericism, they completely believed that Krishnamurti was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ.
The mistake was not in their clairvoyance; the mistake was in their lack of Intellectual Culture. They only knew about the Theosophical septenary. They only knew about the body, soul, and spirit. Yet, they ignored that beyond these three aspects (body, soul, and spirit) every human being has a Ray (the Internal Christ) that unites us to the Absolute.
They saw the internal God of Krishnamurti and believed that he was Jesus of Nazareth, that was their mistake. What is most critical, is the damage that they perpetrated upon the Hindu boy. When a Bodhisattva is told that his internal God is a Master, he becomes confused; he is damaged; he develops a complex.
The Hindu boy saw those instructors arguing among themselves because of him. Thus, the outcome was a psychological trauma for his human Personality. Krishnamurti had a psychological trauma.
There is no doubt that the Theosophist clairvoyants did a great damage to the Hindu boy. The Theosophist Hierarchs should have left the Hindu boy in Peace. He would have developed himself freely in India. Then, his work would have been marvelous.
The great Buddha of Krishnamurti did not give his whole message because his Bodhisattva had a psychological trauma.
If we exam the doctrine of Krishnamurti, we see that the best of it is Buddhism. Unfortunately, he does not know the Christic Esotericism.
The Hindu body drank from the fountain of the Buddhist Gospel. It is a pity that he did not know the Christic Esotericism.
Later on, he mixed the Buddhist Philosophy with the Conventional Philosophy from the Western World.
Thus, the doctrine of Krishnamurti is the outcome of that mixture. The doctrine of Krishnamurti is Buddhism.
However, the doctrine of Aquarius is the outcome of the mixture of Buddhist Esotericism with Christic Esotericism.
The doctrine of Krishnamurti is Free Buddhism. However, the living fountain of that doctrine is the marvelous gospel of the Lord Buddha.
We are not against Krishnamurti; we only regret the fact that the Internal Buddha of that Hindu Philosopher could not give the whole message. That is all.
When a clairvoyant discovers that the Innermost (the Spirit) of someone is a Master; then, it is best for that clairvoyant to be silent, in order not to damage that person.
When somebody knows that his inner being is a Master, he becomes filled with pride and arrogance. Fortunately, Krishnamurti learned how to be humble.
Fallen Bodhisattvas also exist. These ones are worse than demons.
No one has to be told that his inner being is a Master. The clairvoyant must be prudent. The clairvoyant must learn how to be silent.
The Spirit of someone could have achieved the degree of Master in some ancient reincarnation. The Bodhisattva (Human Soul of the Master) could have fallen later on, thus, now that Soul can live upon the path of evil.
The Master never falls. The one who falls is the Bodhisattva (Human Soul) of the Master.
The clairvoyant must be prudent; thus, before announcing a new Master, he must wait with patience many years, in order to see how the person of flesh and bones, the terrestrial Bodhisattva, behaves. The Master could be very great above; yet, the person of flesh and bones (Bodhisattva) here below is dangerous.
In any case, By their fruits you will know them.
Madame Blavatsky stated that one of the greatest mysteries of occultism is the mystery of the double personality.
All the fights and errors of the Theosophical Society were the cause of the trauma of Krishnamurti. The Krishnamurti case is very important.
Dr. Steiner knew the Christic Mysteries. This is why he did not allow himself to be confused. Steiner was Gnostic.
Steiner did not accept that Krishnamurti was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ.
Many followed Steiner and many others Lady Besant.
The clairvoyant Steiner had a vast intellectual culture; this is why he did not fall into that mistake. Steiner was a true Rosicrucian Gnostic. - Fundamental Notions of Endocrinology and Criminology
The point being, that even if we experience something amazing, we need to know how to interpret that experience. If we interpret everything according to the whims of our ideas and expectations, then we can fall into serious error. A few experiences can transform a humble student into a mythically inflated tyrant.
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Hey VIL:
I respect your decision to believe that Abdul Baha's view of this matter holds more authority than that of the overwhelming majority of Jewish authorities to be found in libraries and online everywhere, but when the Holy Scriptures point to a descendant in the lineage of King David, it's tough for me understand how Moses can even be considered a possible candidate for the role of Messiah, much less the most probable candidate. He precedes the life of David and Davidic Covenant and, thus, cannot possibly be a descendant of David....unless you choose to believe that Moses is scheduled to reincarnate as a descendant of David, with full remembrance of his former identity as Moses! [;)] [:D]
The man destined to be the Messiah will be a direct descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through the family of Solomon, David's son (1 Chronicles 22:9-l0). He will cause all the world to serve God together (Isaiah 11:2), be wiser than Solomon (Mishnah Torah Repentance 9:2), greater than the patriarchs and prophets (Aggadah Genesis 67), and more honored than kings (Mishnah Sanhedrin 10), for he will reign as king of the world (Pirkei Eliezer).
Amongst the most basic missions that the Messiah will accomplish during his lifetime (Isaiah 42:4) are to:
Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple, in the event that it has not yet been rebuilt (Michah 4:1 and Ezekiel 40-45)
Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13)
Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and Zephaniah 3:9)
Bring about global peace throughout the world (Isaiah 2:4; 11:5-9 and Michah 4:3-4).
In order to avoid identifying the wrong individual as Messiah, the Code of Jewish Law dictates criteria for establishing the Messiah's identity (Mishnah Torah Kings 11:4):
"If a king arises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah, occupies himself with the commandments as did his ancestor King David, observes the commandments of the Written and Oral Law, prevails upon all Israel to walk in the way of the Torah and to follow its direction, and fights the wars of God, it may be assumed that he is the Messiah.
If he does these things and is fully successful, rebuilds the Third Temple on its location, and gathers the exiled Jews, he is beyond doubt the Messiah."
Identity of the Messiah
The Tanakh gives several specifications as to who the messiah will be. He will be a descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Jeremiah 23:5), observant of Jewish law (Isaiah 11:2-5), a righteous judge (Jeremiah 33:15), and a great military leader.
In general, only the following passages are accepted as referring to the messiah:
Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14
Light to All ~
Doc
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Hi Christi:
Sorry I got sidetracked a bit with the additional topics of 'Reincarnation' and 'Identity of the Awaited Messiah'. The following are offered as direct responses to your earlier questions regarding Jesus's overt claims of His identity for your consideration. [:)]
***************************
Jesus called himself "I AM", a direct reference to God's statement to Moses from the burning bush:
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, I AM has sent me unto you." (Exodus 3:14)
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58)
It is clear from the context that this is just exactly how Jesus meant his statement. It is also clear that His hearers took this statement as a claim to be God because they immediately picked up stones to stone Him. (Stoning was the penalty under Jewish law for blasphemy against the name of God (Exodus 20:7)(Leviticus 24:16)
**********************
There was a man who had been blind from birth. Jesus had the following conversation with him after giving the man sight:
Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?" He answered and said, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" And Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and it is He who talks with you." Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshipped Him. (John 9:35-38)
Here the man asks Jesus a direct question regarding the identity of the Son of God. And Jesus tells the man that he, Jesus, is the Son of God.
***********************
Jesus had the following discussion with the woman at the well:
"The woman said to him, I know that The Annointed One cometh, who is called Messiah. When he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus said unto her, I that speak unto you am he." (John 4:25-26)
Notice, the woman makes direct reference to the coming Messiah, then Jesus claims to be the person to which she makes reference. This is a direct claim by Jesus to Messiahship.
Light to All ~
Doc
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quote:
Doc: I respect your decision to believe that Abdul Baha's view of this matter holds more authority than that of the overwhelming majority of Jewish authorities to be found in libraries and online everywhere, but when the Holy Scriptures point to a descendant in the lineage of King David, it's tough for me understand how Moses can even be considered a possible candidate for the role of Messiah, much less the most probable candidate. He precedes the life of David and Davidic Covenant and, thus, cannot possibly be a descendant of David....unless you choose to believe that Moses is scheduled to reincarnate as a descendant of David, with full remembrance of his former identity as Moses!
I've quoted many reputable sources that support Abdul Baha's claim and have noted these in previous posts. One being a renowned Jewish Historian, who held the first Professorship in a United States University, who taught at Columbia University for decades, whose major work was the Social and Religious History of the Jews. Another site whose founders include a Phd from Princeton University and Undergrad from Harvard on religious studies.
"The Jews commonly expected that Elijah and Moses would somehow "return" before the end-time (Mark 9:11). This idea was based on Old Testament texts. The prophet Malachi had written in God’s name: "I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes" (4:5). Of course, Jesus had already pointed out that Malachi’s "Elijah" was a symbol for a great prophet, in this case John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11-14). So had the Gospel of Luke (1:16).
Thus, the church should have understood that "Elijah" had already come, and he was symbolic of John the Baptist. Perhaps, because of some Jewish thinking to the contrary, a question about this had arisen in the church.
In the same way, the Jews expected a Moses to come on the scene at some point in the future (John 6:14). This idea may have come from Moses’ prophecy of Christ ("I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers"), which was sometimes misunderstood to refer to Moses himself (Deuteronomy 18:18)."
http://www.wcg.org/lit/bible/Rev/2witnesses.htm
"About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, "Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." (He did not know what he was saying.) While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. A voice came from the cloud, saying, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him." When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves, and told no one at that time what they had seen". Luke 9:28-36
It would make sense that at those times it would be important for Christ to dispel any doubt that He was not the literal return of Moses or Elijah, as it was common knowledge that God spoke to Moses through a cloud, showing that He was the One.
There is not much more that I can add, although I keep editing:
[:)]
VIL
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VIL:
Actually, you have made vague, nameless references to the non-traditional opinions of three modern Jewish scholars, who probably all have Reformed Jewish backgrounds. The modern academic views of a small minority, even though the minority is of Jewish descent, cannot be considered more authoritative than the Traditional Orthodox Jewish beliefs most prevalent in the Holy Scriptures, or the thousands of Jewish commentators, both past and present, who have generally shared a common view regarding the Messiah that differs from these modern commentators. [:p]
However, nonetheless, there may indeed be some Jews who expect the return of Old Testament Prophets....especially Moses, Elijah, and Enoch...at or before the End Times, and Scriptural references to support such a belief, as you pointed out, but these Prophets are not generally expected to appear in the role of Mashiach or Messiah. [;)]
Light to All ~
Doc
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Perhaps some of you will find this article of interest relevant to the topics which have been discussed on this thread. [:)]
http://www.projectmind.org/exoteric/kabbalah.html
Light to All ~
Doc
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Hi Philip,
Thanks for quoting the rest of the text. I find this text a little confusing I have to admit. I am not too sure what it is based on. Certainly I have seen nothing in the writings of Krishnamurti, either those based on his talks, or in private letters that he wrote to individuals, which would indicate that he was confused in any way by the arguments which went on about him in Theosophical circles. Neither did he mention any psychological damage that arose from such conflict. It seems that much of the argument is based on knowledge aquired clairvoyantly, and I have no way of knowing how accurate it is. I would love to know what Krishnamurti himself would make of all this.[:)]
I am not sure that his teachings were predominantly Buddhist either. I would say more Advaita Vedanta with Christian overtones. Buddhism is essentially a path, with sets of practices. Krishnamurti was very much against any kind of path.
Until my psychic powers are better developed I am afraid I will have to reserve judgement over Krishnamurti and his Christ consciousness.
I assume from all of this though, that you believe that although Jesus represented a power, or a flame of God, which we can all manifest, that you also believe that Jesus of Nazareth was a man who lived at a particular time and will come again in the form of a man? And that that time has not yet come? Are you awaiting this time? And do you know when it will be?
Christi
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When Will the Moshiach Come?
There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the moshiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the moshiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the moshiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the moshiach will come.
Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the moshiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the moshiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the moshiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good).
http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/end1.htm
http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Misc/misc01_ch03.htm
Light to All ~
Doc
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Mashiach
The Principle of Mashiach and the Messianic Era in Jewish Law and Tradition
Mashiach Ben Yossef
by Rabbi Jacob Immanuel Schochet
Jewish tradition speaks of two redeemers, each one called Mashiach. Both are involved in ushering in the Messianic era. They are Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Yossef.[1]
The term Mashiach unqualified always refers to Mashiach ben David (Mashiach the descendant of David) of the tribe of Judah. He is the actual (final) redeemer who shall rule in the Messianic age. All that was said in our text relates to him.
Mashiach ben Yossef (Mashiach the descendant of Joseph) of the tribe of Ephraim (son of Joseph), is also referred to as Mashiach ben Ephrayim, Mashiach the descendant of Ephraim.[2] He will come first, before the final redeemer, and later will serve as his viceroy.[3]
The essential task of Mashiach ben Yossef is to act as precursor to Mashiach ben David: he will prepare the world for the coming of the final redeemer. Different sources attribute to him different functions, some even charging him with tasks traditionally associated with Mashiach ben David (such as the ingathering of the exiles, the rebuilding of the Bet Hamikdash, and so forth).[4]
The principal and final function ascribed to Mashiach ben Yossef is of political and military nature. He shall wage war against the forces of evil that oppress Israel. More specifically, he will do battle against Edom, the descendants of Esau.[5] Edom is the comprehensive designation of the enemies of Israel,[6] and it will be crushed through the progeny of Joseph. Thus it was prophesied of old, "The House of Jacob will be a fire and the House of Joseph a flame, and the House of Esau for stubble.." (Obadiah 1:18): "the progeny of Esau shall be delivered only into the hands of the progeny of Joseph."[7]
This ultimate confrontation between Joseph and Esau is alluded already in the very birth of Joseph when his mother Rachel exclaimed, "G-d has taken away my disgrace" (Genesis 30:23): with prophetic vision she foresaw that an "anointed savior" will descend from Joseph and that he will remove the disgrace of Israel.[8] In this context she called his name "Yossef, saying 'yossef Hashem - may G-d add to me ben acher (lit., another son), i.e., ben acharono shel olam - one who will be at the end of the world's time,'[9] from which it follows that 'meshu'ach milchamah - one anointed for battle' will descend from Joseph."[10]
The immediate results of this war[11] will be disastrous: Mashiach ben Yossef will be killed. This is described in the prophecy of Zechariah, who says of this tragedy that "they shall mourn him as one mourns for an only child." (Zechariah 12:10).[12] His death will be followed by a period of great calamities. These new tribulations shall be the final test for Israel, and shortly thereafter Mashiach ben David shall come, avenge his death, resurrect him, and inaugurate the Messianic era of everlasting peace and bliss.[13]
This, in brief, is the general perception of the "second Mashiach," the descendant of Joseph through the tribe of Ephraim.
Quite significantly, R. Saadiah Gaon (one of the few to elaborate on the role of Mashiach ben Yossef) notes that this sequence is not definite but contingent! Mashiach ben Yossef will not have to appear before Mashiach ben David, nor will the activities attributed to him or his death have to occur. All depends on the spiritual condition of the Jewish people at the time the redemption is to take place:
The essential function of Mashiach ben Yossef is to prepare Israel for the final redemption, to put them into the proper condition in order to clear the way for Mashiach ben David to come. Of that ultimate redemption it is said, that if Israel repent (return to G-d) they shall be redeemed immediately (even before the predetermined date for Mashiach's coming). If they will not repent and thus become dependent on the final date, "the Holy One, blessed be He, will set up a ruler over them, whose decrees shall be as cruel as Haman's, thus causing Israel to repent, and thereby bringing them back to the right path."[14] In other words, if Israel shall return to G-d on their own and make themselves worthy of the redemption, there is no need for the trials and tribulations associated with the above account of events related to Mashiach ben Yossef. Mashiach ben David will come directly and redeem us.[15]
Moreover, even if there be a need for the earlier appearance of Mashiach ben Yossef, the consequences need not be as severe as described. Our present prayers and meritorious actions can mitigate these. R. Isaac Luria (Ari-zal) notes that the descendant of Joseph, by being the precursor of the ultimate Mashiach, is in effect kissey David, the "seat" or "throne" of David, i.e., of Mashiach. Thus when praying in the daily Amidah, "speedily establish the throne of Your servant David," one should consider that this refers to Mashiach ben Yossef and beseech G-d that he should not die in the Messianic struggle.[16] As all prayers, this one, too, will have its effect.
It follows, then, that all the above is not an essential or unavoidable part of the Messianic redemption that we await. Indeed, it - (and the same may be said of the climactic war of Gog and Magog) - may occur (or may have occured already!) in modified fashion.[17] This may explain why Rambam does not mention anything about Mashiach ben Yossef. R. Saadiah Gaon[18] and R. Hai Gaon,[19] as well as a good number of commentators, do refer to him briefly or at length. In view of the divergent Midrashim and interpretations on this subject it is practically impossible to present a more definitive synopsis that would go far beyond the above. Thus it is wisest to cite and follow R. Chasdai Crescas who states that "no certain knowledge can be derived from the interpretations of the prophecies about Mashiach ben Yossef, nor from the statements about him by some of the Geonim;" there is no point, therefore, in elaborating on the subject.[20]
Baruch Shem Yeshua Ha-Mashiach La-Olam. Amin.
Doc
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
I assume from all of this though, that you believe that although Jesus represented a power, or a flame of God, which we can all manifest, that you also believe that Jesus of Nazareth was a man who lived at a particular time and will come again in the form of a man? And that that time has not yet come? Are you awaiting this time? And do you know when it will be?
Christi
Perhaps Jesus will give a public teaching again, I don't know. The important second coming is when Jesus is born in one's own heart.
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The Lost Tomb of Jesus
"Feb. 25, 2007 — New scientific evidence, including DNA analysis conducted at one of the world's foremost molecular genetics laboratories, as well as studies by leading scholars, suggests a 2,000-year-old Jerusalem tomb could have once held the remains of Jesus of Nazareth and his family.
The findings also suggest that Jesus and Mary Magdalene might have produced a son named Judah.
The DNA findings, alongside statistical conclusions made about the artifacts — originally excavated in 1980 — open a potentially significant chapter in Biblical archaeological history.
A documentary presenting the evidence, "The Lost Tomb of Jesus," will premiere on the Discovery Channel on March 4 at 9 p.m. ET/PT. The documentary comes from executive producer James Cameron and director Simcha Jacobovici."
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2007/02/25/tomb_arc.html?category=archaeology&guid=20070225073000
Video:
http://dsc.discovery.com/beyond/player.html?playerId=203711706&bclid=537085188&clik=www_vid_1
[:)]
VIL
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Oh no, the Sci-Fi screenwriters will have a field day with this -- I can see a Sci-Fi film coming up in which Jesus is cloned from DNA they found in his tomb. [:D]
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[:D] And if you believe that, you'll probably enjoy this site as well! [:p]
www.jesus.com.au/html/page/jesus_in_india
And here's the real deal:
www.christiananswers.net/jesus/home.html
www.holyfire.org/eng/history.htm
www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/holyfire.aspx
Do any readers of this forum know where the tombs of their parents, grandparents, siblings, or other close relatives or friends are located? Well, guess what? The immediate family, friends, and disciples of Jesus also knew where Jesus was buried. Knowledge of His tomb's location was preserved in memory by those who loved and revered Jesus, and has never been forgotten! It is beneath the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem, and can still be viewed there today. [8D]
But never mind that...anything that serves to discredit Jesus and invalidate Traditional Christian beliefs regarding His Death and Resurrection must be true, right? [:(] There is absolutely no chance at all that the historical, eyewitness accounts of these events could possibly be credible, right? [V] Wake up, people! [|)]
Adonay Yeshua haMashiach racham. Amin!
Doc
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Oh, god.
Maybe the clone goes haywire, due to human error, and he becomes the anti-christ.
Instead of growing up to save the world, he grows up to be the most successful advocate for safety in eating cloned meat.
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Oh no, the Sci-Fi screenwriters will have a field day with this -- I can see a Sci-Fi film coming up in which Jesus is cloned from DNA they found in his tomb. [:D]
Hey! We could make a Hollyweird movie! "Jerusalem Park". Who could we get to play the clone? Maybe Jonny Depp would be interested.
[8D]
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Maybe the clone goes haywire, due to human error, and he becomes the anti-christ. ...
Hey! We could make a Hollyweird movie! "Jerusalem Park".
Brad Pitt could do it too. Yes, I can hear the rumbling voice-over in the movie previews -- " Jesus is back! And this time .... he's mad!" Cut to long-haired scowling sweaty bare-chested Pitt/Depp with a semi-automatic.
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I think the program will be interesting to watch, regardless of the controversy surrounding the documentary:
[:)]
VIL
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Hi VIL:
Agreed! It will no doubt be intriguing 'science fiction', as the following piece strongly suggests. [:p] [;)]
**********************************
Archaeologists denounce "Lost Tomb"
www.chinaview.cn 2007-02-27 18:56:10
BEIJING, Feb. 27 (Xinhuanet) -- A documentary film produced by Oscar-winning director James Cameron ("Titanic") that questions the basic Christian belief that Jesus Christ died, was resurrected and ascended to heaven has drawn heavy fire from archaeologists and clergymen in the Holy Land.
"The Lost Tomb of Christ," which the Discovery Channel will run on March 4, argues that 10 ancient ossuaries -- small caskets used to store bones -- discovered in a suburb of Jerusalem in 1980 may have contained the bones of Jesus and his family, according to a press release issued by the Discovery Channel.
One of the caskets even bears the title, "Judah, son of Jesus," raising the possibility Jesus may have had a son. And the very fact that Jesus had an ossuary would contradict the Christian belief that he was devine.
Most Christians believe Jesus' body spent three days at the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem's Old City. The burial site identified in Cameron's documentary is in a southern Jerusalem neighborhood nowhere near the church.
In 1996, when the BBC aired a short documentary on the same subject, archaeologists challenged the claims. Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television.
"They just want to get money for it," Kloner said.
The claims have raised the ire of Christian leaders in the Holy Land.
"The historical, religious and archaeological evidence show that the place where Christ was buried is the Church of the Resurrection," said Attallah Hana, a Greek Orthodox clergyman in Jerusalem. The documentary, he said, "contradicts the religious principles and the historic and spiritual principles that we hold tightly to."
Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem who was interviewed in the documentary, said the film's hypothesis holds little weight.
"I don't think that Christians are going to buy into this," Pfann said. "But skeptics, in general, would like to see something that pokes holes into the story that so many people hold dear."
"How possible is it?" Pfann asked. "On a scale of one through 10 -- 10 being completely possible -- it's probably a one, maybe a one and a half."
Kloner also said the filmmakers' assertions are false.
"It was an ordinary middle-class Jerusalem burial cave," Kloner said. "The names on the caskets are the most common names found among Jews at the time."
Archaeologists also doubt the filmmaker's claim that the James Ossuary -- the center of a famous antiquities fraud in Israel -- might have originated from the same cave.
"I don't think the James Ossuary came from the same cave," said Dan Bahat, an archaeologist at Bar-Ilan University. "If it were found there, the man who made the forgery would have taken something better. He would have taken Jesus."
********************************
In the meantime, the following links show photos of the interior of Jesus's actual tomb, which lies beneath the Greek Orthodox Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. [:)]
www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/jerusalem-church-of-holy-sepulchre.htm
www.holylight.gr/patria/english/ensepul.html
And here's an interesting article regarding the annual phenomenon of the Holy Paschal Fire:
www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/holyfire.pdf
Light to All ~
Doc
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Hey, Doc, I don't presume to know anything about the subject. I do realize, however, that there are many conflicting reports from archaeologists, staticians, religious scholars, pro and con, concerning the authenticity of the Tomb.
To me, it doesn't matter if the tomb were that of Jesus, or not, but understand the sensitivity of belief, that Jesus was physically resurrected, as do the filmmakers - who state that they are not presenting the information from a theological perspective.
As you've said, and I agree; it would seem very probable that people would be fully cognizant of the location of Jesus Tomb. Although, I'm not a historian and am not aware of Jewish atmosphere, possible fear, or secrecy, surrounding the tomb, after Christ's Ascension. I have read an encyclopedia article of The Holy Sepulchre of Jesus, that I found fascinating, wherein there are still many discrepancies theorized, as to its location.
Regardless, I thought I saw "the flower of life" inscribed on the ossuary and would like to get a closer look.
"The Flower of Life (FOL) is a geometrical figure composed of multiple evenly-spaced, overlapping circles, that are arranged so that they form a flower-like pattern with a sixfold symmetry like a hexagon. The center of each circle is on the circumference of six surrounding circles of the same diameter."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_of_life
http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20070226/500_ap_tomb2_070226.jpg
VIL
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quote:
Originally posted by VIL:
"....there are many conflicting reports from archaeologists, staticians, religious scholars, pro and con, concerning the authenticity of the Tomb....wherein there are still many discrepancies theorized, as to its location."
Ah, yes...especially from among the ranks of Muslims, Jews, and Agnostics, all of whom are non-Christians, and among some Protestant Western Christian groups who have no control over the ancient Holy Sepulcher, or other religious sites in the Holy Land. As such, the latter groups in particular jealously attempt to cast doubt on the credibility of the Traditional Holy Sites of Blessed Memory, and propose other sites which they do control, such as Gordon's Garden Tomb, as alternative possibilities. [V]
Such sites, however, were NEVER considered authentic by Eastern Christians who live in the Holy Land simply because they are not the locations passed down through previous generations in Holy Tradition as the original sites identified by those who knew Jesus. Again, this includes Jesus's immediate family and disciples, as well as countless others, who were all live, eyewitnesses to the events of Jesus's last days at the locations in question. [8D]
Unfortunately, most Western Christians are so totally separated from the places were Jesus lived and taught, that they don't appreciate how deeply revered and loved these Holy Sites have always been, and still are, to the Eastern Christians living in the Holy Land, often in the immediate vacinity of these Sacred Sites! [:D]
A trip to the Holy Land gives most Western Christians a whole new perspective on how the Christian people living there have always treasured and guarded these Sacred Sites which are directly related to the events of the life of Christ as described in the Gospels. [:)]
Light to All ~
Doc
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quote:
Doc: Ah, yes...especially from among the ranks of Muslims, Jews, and Agnostics, all of whom are non-Christians, and among some Protestant Western Christian groups who have no control over the ancient Holy Sepulcher, or other religious sites in the Holy Land. As such, the latter groups in particular jealously attempt to cast doubt on the credibility of the Traditional Holy Sites of Blessed Memory, and propose other sites which they do control, such as Gordon's Garden Tomb, as alternative possibilities.
I'm sure you are aware that the Prophet Muhammad, Muslims, protected Christian Holy Sites, The Holy Sepulchre, and should not be equated with fanatical individuals, groups or rulers, just as Moses and Christ should not be generalized with extremist Jews or Christians:
"Under the Muslims it remained a Christian church. The early Muslim rulers protected the city's Christian sites, prohibiting their destruction and their use as living quarters, but after a riot in 966, when the doors and roof were burnt, the original building was completely destroyed on October 18, 1009 by the "mad" Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah."
"Clunaic monk Raoul Glaber blamed the Jews, with the result that Jews were expelled from Limoges and other French towns. Ultimately, this destruction provided an impetus to the later Crusades."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Sepulchre
"Doc: A trip to the Holy Land gives most Western Christians a whole new perspective on how the Christian people living there have always treasured and guarded these Sacred Sites which are directly related to the events of the life of Christ as described in the Gospels."
I would love to go and visit the Holy Sepulchre and the many other Holy Sites:
[:)] [:)]
VIL
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Hi to all ~
With the Season of Great Lent leading up to the Great and Holy Pascha (Easter) already begun, the question of why Western Christians and Eastern Orthodox Christians rarely celebrate this most important of all Christians Holy Days on the same day arises once again.
The answer is really quite simple. The early Christians determined that the Commemoration of the Lord's Day of Resurrection should not be celebrated on any day of the week other than a Sunday, which quickly became known as The Lord's Day, since this was the day of the week on which Jesus's Resurrection originally occured. Thus, fixing the annual date of Easter on the same date as the original Day of Resurrection wasn't workable, as that fixed date would occur on different days of the week every year, and would only periodically fall on a Sunday like the original Holy Day.
In the original, unified Orthodox Church, therefore, it was decided that Pascha or Easter should always be celebrated on The Lord's Day (Sunday) immediately following the concluding Sabbath of the Jewish Pesach (Passover). This most accurately commemorates Jesus's Resurrection as recorded in the New Testament Scriptural accounts of all the Gospels regarding when His Death and Resurrection originally occured.[^]
This year of 2007, for example, the Jewish Passover begins on Monday, April 2 at Sunset. The Passover Sabbath begins on Friday, April 6 at Sunset, and ends the next evening on Saturday, April 7 at Sunset. Thus, Eastern Greek Orthodox Pascha or Easter will be celebrated this year the following day on Sunday, April 8, 2007.[:)]
All Christians commemorated the Great and Holy Pascha in this manner for the first 1,500 years of Christian Church History until the era of the Protestant Reformation in the Western Latin or Roman Catholic Church.
Eastern Orthodox Christianity follows the Lunar Phases of the year in determining its Liturgical Calendar, in accordance with the Jewish Tradition from which it came, and also retains many other aspects of Orthodox Judaism, such as viewing Sunset to be the beginning and the end of each day.[8D]
This explains the statement of Faith which says "...on the third day He rose again from the dead...". It is recorded from eyewitnesses that Jesus died of crucifixion at mid-afternoon, before the day had ended at Sunset, on a Friday... thus Day 1. He remained in the tomb throughout the period of time from sunset Friday until well after Sunset Saturday, when the Passover Sabbath concluded...thus Day 2. Holy Tradition, established by those who kept watch over the tomb from a discreet distance, has always held that the Resurrection occured shortly after Midnight on Sunday...hence, on the third day from the time of Jesus's death by Jewish reckoning.[:)]
In the Western Churches...i.e. Roman Catholic, Anglican Catholic, and Protestant churches...Easter is always celebrated on the first Sunday after the Full Moon following the Vernal Equinox....regardless of when the Jewish Passover Sabbath occurs. Hence, in the Western Churches, Easter is often celebrated before Passover even begins, and is thus only occaisionally celebrated on the same date as the Eastern Churches. [V]
Light to All ~
Doc
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Great post, Doc, and Happy Easter:
[:)]
All Spiritual Masters know the significance of the affect of the moon on the spirit and it's something that I've been doing extensive research on for some time. But maybe you could help if you wouldn't mind: [8D]
I'm researching the the allegory of Christ being buried in the heart of the earth for three days and was wondering if you could direct me to Biblical References of the three times that Christ was seen after His resurrection in relation to the time that Peter denied Christ three times?
Thank you:
[:)]
VIL
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Hi VIL:
To the best of my knowledge, there is no direct correlation between Peter's pre-execution denials of Jesus and the post-Resurrection appearances of Christ. Accounts of the latter can be found at the end of the Gospels.[:)]
Doc
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Thanks, Doc:[:I]
Can you tell me what version of the Bible is considered the most accurate translation?
Thanks again:
[:)]
VIL
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Hi VIL:
That's a tricky question as new translations appear everytime an older Codex is found. Additionally, many Western Christian church organizations produce and advocate their own proprietary versions.
However, the one version which has been produced by translating and comparing the oldest extant texts still in existence for word to word accuracy is the Revised Standard Version (RSV) with Apocrypha. And since this translation project was undertaken by an ecumenical group of both Christian and Jewish Biblical scholars, it is the only published version to be officially approved by virtually every major Christian and Jewish organization thus far. [8D]
There also has been a New Revised Standard Version (NRVS) produced since the publication of the RSV, but due to changes in the language and style of translation, this work hasn't received the broad ecumenical support given to the Revised Standard Version.
You can check out the Revised Standard Version with Apocrypha here:
http://etext.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html
Light to All ~
Doc
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Great. Thanks, Doc, will do:
[:)]
VIL
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Hi everyone!
This might be of interest as well. Check it out.
Light to All ~
Doc
World's oldest Bible goes global: Historic international digitisation project announced
11 March 2005 :: Posted by Catriona Finlayson
An ambitious international project to reinterpret the oldest Bible in the world, the Codex Sinaiticus, and make it accessible to a global audience using innovative digital technology and drawing on the expertise of leading biblical scholars is officially launched today.
A team of experts from the UK, Europe, Egypt, Russia and the US have joined together to reunite this iconic treasure in virtual form. This unprecedented collaborative approach to achieve reunification involves all four of the institutions at which parts of the manuscript are held : St Catherine's Monastery, Sinai; the British Library, the University of Leipzig, Germany; and the National Library of Russia, St. Petersburg.
The project encompasses four strands: conservation, digitisation, transcription and scholarly commentary to make the Codex available for a worldwide audience of all ages and levels of interest. There are plans for a range of projects including a free to view website, a high quality digital facsimile and CD Rom. It is intended that this project will be a model for future collaborations on other manuscripts.
The Codex is an iconic and historic document which dates from the period when the Roman Empire split and the Emperor Constantine, who ruled the Eastern Empire, adopted Christianity. Greek heritage dominated this Empire and the Codex was produced in response to the wish to gather together Greek versions of the principal Jewish and Christian scriptures. It is the earliest surviving book to encompass in one volume the great wealth of texts that have come to be recognised as forming the Christian Bible. It marks a dramatic shift from a culture in which texts were transmitted in scrolls to the bound book. The Codex Sinaiticus is arranged in eight narrow columns across a double-page and may be modelled on the arrangement of columns on papyrus scrolls.
The Codex is a major resource for scholars working in a range of disciplines, particularly those studying the Christian and Jewish scriptures, the history of the Christian Church, the transmission of texts, Hellenic and Byzantine culture, the history of the book, and codicology - the study of the structure of books.
The project will instigate a major campaign of scholarly research, led by the top specialists in Biblical studies, to transcribe, translate and reinterpret the text and research the Codex's history for both a specialist audience and the general public.
It is also highly important for its rich layering of texts. It was written by three scribes and contains important textual corrections and insertions. The digitisation and work on transcription will make it possible for researchers to identify which corrections and additions were made by which scribe at the click of a button, thus enabling them to uncover the different versions of the text that were used at the time.
It is estimated that the project will take four years to complete and cost £680,000.
A challenge grant of £150,000 has already been pledged by t he Stavros S Niarchos Foundation and the project board needs to raise funds to match this by the 1st December 2005.
Due to the extreme age and fragility of the Codex, none of the four partners holding leaves of the Codex is able to allow access to the manuscript, beyond display in a glass case. All four partners will carry out detailed examination and analysis of the codices and their findings will be documented using the same system to enable the conservation status to be linked to the environment in which the parts have been held. International experts in areas such as parchment identification, multi-spectral imaging and iron gall ink will become involved as the conservation progresses.
Translations of the Codex will be made available in English, and plans will be developed for translations in German, Spanish and modern Greek, using both existing and new translations of the textual variations in the Codex Sinaiticus.
A high quality, case-bound, colour-printed facsimile of the entire Codex Sinaiticus will be produced, to enable scholars and lay enthusiasts full access to a life-like copy of the original. A scholarly volume of commentaries, with contributions by leading scholars, will also be produced.
A range of projects and initiatives are planned for scholars and the general public including a dedicated website, illustrated booklet, CD Rom and the Library's award-winning Turning the Pages technology, to allow people to "turn" the digitised pages of the Codex in a realistic way, using interactive animation.
The Codex Sinaiticus project will also be recorded as a documentary by the television production company, CTVC.
For further information and images please contact Catriona Finlayson at the British Library Press Office, telephone +44 (0)20 7412 7114, email catriona.finlayson@bl.uk.
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Here's a piece on the oldest complete Hebrew Codex:
The Leningrad Codex
The Leningrad Codex, or Leningradensis, is the oldest complete Hebrew bible still preserved. While there are older parts of Bibles, or biblical books, still in existence, there is no older manuscript which contains the whole Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament in Hebrew). The Leningrad Codex is considered one of the best examples of the Masoretic text.
How Old is the Manuscript?
The manuscript was written around the year 1010 C. E. It was probably written in Cairo, and later sold to someone living in Damascus.
Where is the Original Manuscript?
Today it is in St. Petersburg, Russia, in the Russian National Library (Saltykov-Shchedrin), where it has been since the mid-1800's. When the Ancient Biblical Manuscript Center and West Semitic Research photographed the Bible in 1990, the city was still called Leningrad. The name of the manuscript continues to be called the Leningrad Codex in order to avoid confusion.
What do we mean when we talk about the Masoretic Text?
This manuscript belongs to a group of Hebrew texts called the Masoretic texts. The Hebrew alphabet itself, which developed from the Phoenician alphabet, has no true vowels, so the oldest Hebrew biblical fragments have only consonants, some of which are used as half-vowels, like our y, w, and h.
Sometime in the Middle Ages a group of scholars called Masoretes became interested in developing a system for marking the vowels. They were concerned that the pronunciation of the words might be lost, since Hebrew was no longer a spoken language. Besides vowels, they also wanted a way of marking punctuation, accents, and the musical notes used when the biblical text was chanted in the synagogue.
The most popular system of signs was developed by the Ben Asher family, and it is their system that is preserved in the Leningrad Codex. If you look carefully at a page you can see that the consonants, or letters, have little marks above and below them. Some of the marks are called "vowel points," and some are called "accents." The accents both act as punctuation and as musical notation.
The Masoretes were also interested in copying the biblical text very carefully so that it would be preserved from generation to generation. The way they tried to ensure this was the use of notes in the margins. In the margins beside the biblical verses they put little letters as symbols.
These symbols told the scribe copying the text information about unusual forms or words that should not be changed. For instance, they might put a circle over a word that occurred nowhere else in the Bible. In the margin they would then put the letter "l" which told the scribe, "yes, this is a unique word, but it is not an error, so just copy it the way it is." The notes at the top or bottom of a page would usually give more information about the symbols in the side margins.
What is a Codex?
The Leningrad Bible is called a "Codex" because it is in the form of a book ("codex" being an old word for "book"). The Bibles in the synagogues were in the form of scrolls, which meant that one never had an entire Bible together in one scroll. The codex would not have been used in the synagogue, but would have been used as a study Bible by students and scholars.
What books of the Bible does the Leningrad Codex contain?
The Codex includes all of the books in the Jewish Bible, or the Protestant Old Testament. The order of books in the Leningrad Bible is not quite the same as you will usually find in a modern Bible. First of all, the books are in the Jewish order, divided into three main parts: Instruction (Torah), Prophets (Nevi'im) and Writings (Ketuvim). In modern Jewish Bibles the order of the books is:
Torah: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy
The Prophets: Joshua, Judges, Samuel (1&2), Kings (1&2)
Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel
The Twelve minor prophets (Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah,
Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi).
The Writings: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, The Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations,
Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Chronicles (1&2).
The Leningrad Codex contains all these books, plus extensive scholarly notes, and 16 illuminated (decorative) pages. However, the order is a little bit different than what you would find in a modern Jewish Bible.
Torah: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy
The Prophets: Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings
Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel
The Twelve minor prophets (Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah,
Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi).
The Writings: Chronicles, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ruth, The Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah.
Notice that the books of Samuel, Kings, Chronicles and Ezra-Nehemiah are all one book in this manuscript, which, of course, they were originally. Notice, too, that the Twelve minor prophets make up one book. This is because at one time they were all copied together on one long scroll.
Why is the Leningrad Codex important?
The Leningrad Codex is used today as the basis for most modern printed editions of the Hebrew Bible, together with a few other incomplete Hebrew Bibles. This is because it is the oldest complete manuscript copied with the Masoretic system developed by the Ben Asher family.
Light to All ~
Doc
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And the oldest Arabic translation here:
The Mt. Sinai Arabic Codex 151 is indeed a most exciting discovery.
It appears to be the oldest Arabic translation of the Bible in existence which was done in 867 AD. Certainly it is the oldest Arabic translation with commentary supplied by the translator. It includes the Biblical text, marginal comments, lectionary notes, and glosses, as found in the manuscript. It was discovered at St. Catherine monastery in Mt. Sinai in the 1800's.
This ancient and important Arabic manuscript is published in one volume by the Institute For Middle Eastern New Testament Studies, edited by Dr. Harvey Staal. The volume is a presentation of the manuscript, preserving all the marginal notes and its intrinsic value as much as possible. Dr. Harvey Staal, a missionary of the Reformed Church in America, labored for years on the transcription and publication of this Arabic manuscript. This discovery is a thrilling discovery for Middle Eastern Christians, because it demonstrates that more than a 1100 years ago, an Arabic Christian translated God's precious word into our Arabic language, complete with notes and comments!
NOTE:
Dr. Staal passed away February 1999. Only a few copies remain from first printing and these are handled by the Bible Society in Beirut, Lebanon. The email address is: bsl@biblesociety.org.lb.
The more requests they get regarding availability, the more need they will realize for a second printing. Please email them, and kindly petition for the re-print of this valuable volume.
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I just finished reading your posts, Doc. Thank you, for providing all of this excellent information. I especially enjoyed the global digitisation process that is set for completion in 2009, if I read it correctly. Thanks again:
[:)]
VIL
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My pleasure! [:)] Perhaps this piece will be of interest to you as well. [:D] Enjoy! [8D]
Dating the Oldest New Testament Manuscripts
by Peter van Minnen
The New Testament text we read in our English Bibles is based on the original Greek text. We know this text, albeit imperfectly, through a large number of ancient manuscripts. All these manuscripts are mere copies, and the great majority of them are copies of copies, yet ultimately they all derive from the originals. In the process of copying, however, scribal errors are bound to occur. There is not a single copy wholly free from mistakes. A science called textual criticism deals systematically with these mistakes to eliminate as many of them as possible. The most important tools for textual critics are the manuscripts themselves.
In the sixteenth century the Greek New Testament was published for the first time in printed form. The great Dutch philologist Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam had established a text from a handful of manuscripts dating from the later Middle Ages. Unfortunately he used only manuscripts of inferior quality for his edition of 1516. A few verses from the Apocalypse were lacking in the manuscripts at his disposal. He simply re-translated them from the current Latin version! Erasmus' intention with his edition was to provide a basis for a new Latin translation of the New Testament. The Reformers used it to produce vernacular translations of their own.
Until the nineteenth century New Testament scholars and translators availed themselves only sparingly of other manuscripts. Then, within a fairly short period, a number of manuscripts of superior quality became available, mainly thanks to the work of the German scholar Constantin Tischendorf. These manuscripts dated from the fourth and fifth centuries and presented a text that was at least free from the accretions of a later age. We had to wait, however, until the 70's and 80's of the nineteenth century for new critical editions of the New Testament.
Tischendorf himself and the British scholars Westcott and Hort produced two rival editions of the Greek text. They believed that their text reflected the original as well as possible, even if it was based on manuscripts dating from at least three centuries after the New Testament was written. Gradually the new critical texts replaced Erasmus' text, which has not received much attention from serious scholars anymore. Thousands more ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament have become known in the past 100 years. Monastery libraries in countries around the Mediterranean have yielded most of the manuscripts. The textual critics of the Greek New Testament have been able to come to terms with only a few of them. Most of them are not very old manuscripts anyhow, and in textual criticism it is age and quality that counts, not mere quantity.
In the 30's and 60's of the twentieth century a number of other, very important manuscripts have become available. We owe this to the efforts of two wealthy book collectors, Chester Beatty and Martin Bodmer. These manuscripts are of a special class for two reasons. They are written on papyrus and date from well before the fourth century. The earliest papyrus manuscripts come very close to the time when the New Testament was written. Of course, manuscripts on papyrus were known before, but these dated from a much later period and tended to be rather fragmentary. For almost all New Testament books we now have manuscripts earlier than the fourth century.
How do we know these manuscripts are so very early? How do we know their dates for certain? Some of you may think "scientific" tests on the physical structure of the papyrus may yield such dates. In fact they cannot, because such tests are very inaccurate. No, we can date papyrus manuscripts, any manuscript for that matter, simply by looking at the way it is written. Handwriting is a product of human culture and as such it is always developing. Differences in handwriting are bound to appear within one generation. Just compare the handwriting of your parents with your own. Or look at your own scribblings of a few years ago. It is the same handwriting as today but an expert, a paleographer, can distinguish not unimportant differences. He cannot establish the exact date but he can confidently place one handwriting in the 30's and another in the 80's. Even printed texts can easily be dated according to the outward appearance of the type or font used by the printer.
For such an ancient period as that between A.D. 100 and 300 it is of course much more difficult to be confident about the date of a manuscript. There is infinitely less comparative material. Nevertheless we are now in a fairly comfortable position to date papyrus manuscripts according to their handwriting. We do not have to rely on manuscripts of the New Testament only. We have hundreds of papyrus manuscripts of Greek pagan literary texts from this period and again hundreds of carefully written papyrus documents that show the same types of handwriting. These documents are very important for paleographers because they are often exactly dated. As a rule New Testament manuscripts on papyrus are not. A careful comparison of the papyrus documents and manuscripts of the second and third centuries has established beyond doubt that about forty Greek papyrus manuscripts of the New Testament date from this very period. Unfortunately only six of them are extensively preserved.
Even within the period that runs from c. A.D. 100-300 it is possible for paleographers to be more specific on the relative date of the papyrus manuscripts of the New Testament. For about sixty years now a tiny papyrus fragment of the Gospel of John has been the oldest "manuscript" of the New Testament. This manuscript (P52) has generally been dated to ca. A.D. 125. This fact alone proved that the original Gospel of John was written earlier, viz. in the first century A.D., as had always been upheld by conservative scholars.
We now have early and very early evidence for the text of the New Testament. A classified list of the most important manuscripts will make this clear. Numbers preceded by a P refer to papyri, the letters refer to parchment manuscripts.
ca. A.D. 200 250 300 350 450
Matthew P45 B Sin.
Mark P45 B Sin. A
Luke P4,P45,P75 B Sin. A
John P66 P45,P75 B Sin. A
Acts P45 B Sin. A
Romans-Hebrews P46 B Sin. A
James-Jude P72,B Sin. A
Apocalypse P47 Sin. A
As you can see, from the fourth century onwards the material base for establishing the text of the Greek New Testament is very good indeed. The manuscripts Sin. (Sinaiticus), A (Alexandrinus) and B (Vaticanus) are almost complete parchment manuscripts. With the help of the earlier papyrus manuscripts we have been able to establish that the text of these three great manuscripts is to a large extent reliable. The papyrus manuscript P75 was the latest to be published, but it showed a virtually identical text to manuscript B. This settled the vexed question whether we have in the parchment manuscripts of the fourth and fifth centuries a safe guide to the original text of the New Testament. We have.
That is not to say that we can dispense with later manuscripts of the New Testament. With the exception of Sin. the oldest manuscripts are not complete. Moreover they contain scribal errors of all sorts. P46 is a case in point: it is the manuscript with the largest percentage of blunders on record! Most of this kind of errors can, however, be removed by comparing the readings of the oldest manuscripts. The remaining puzzles can only be solved by taking later manuscripts into account. Most of the work in textual criticism in the past forty years has been done by Kurt Aland in Münster and Bruce Metzger in Princeton. The latest translations of the New Testament are based on their work.
It is to be noticed that all the manuscripts listed above come from Egypt. The papyri were found there in the twentieth century. They are now in Dublin, Ann Arbor, Cologny (in Switzerland), the Vatican and Vienna. Sin. was found in a monastery library on the slopes of Mount Sinai in the nineteenth century and brought to St. Petersburg. In 1933 it was sold to the British Museum in London for a mere 100,000 pounds. A was transferred from the patriarchal library at Alexandria in the seventeenth century and is now also in the British Library. B has been in the Vatican since the Middle Ages. We owe the early Egyptian Christians an immense debt. Those who are fortunate enough to be able to work with part of their heritage count their blessings every day.
Light to All !
Doc
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Thanks, Doc:
[:)]
VIL
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Hi VIL:
I thought that this information would be better placed in this thread, even though your inquiry was made in another thread. so here it is. Doc
Hebrew Months and the Zodiac
Hebrew Month * Zodiac Sign * Dates * Hebrew Name
Nisan = Aries = March 21-April 20 = Taleh
Iyar = Taurus = April 21-May 20 = Shor
Sivan = Gemini = May 21-June 20 = Teomim
Tammuz = Cancer = June 21-July 21 = Sartan
Av = Leo = July 22-August 22 = Aryeh
Elul = Virgo = August 23-September 22 = Betulah
Tishre = Libra = September 23-October 22 = Moznayim
Cheshvan = Scorpio = October 23-November 21 = Akrav
Kislev = Sagittarius = November 22-December 20 = Keshet
Tevet = Capricorn = December 21-January 20 = G'di
Shvat = Aquarius = January 21-February 18 = D'li
Adar = Pisces = February 19-March 20 = Dagim
Moses had a special formula. This formula is called the 72 Names of God. The 72 Names are not really names, as human names are. The 72 Names are 72 three-letter sequences composed of Hebrew letters that have the extraordinary power to overcome the laws of both mother and human nature. These 72 sequences are actually encoded into the Bible story that tells of the parting of the Red Sea as described at Exodus 14:19-21. They are like conduits that transmit various blends of energy from the Light into our physical world. By using the power of the 72 Names and overcoming their reactive natures, Moses and the Jews were able to accomplish the miracle of the Red Sea.
The shapes, sounds, sequences, and vibrations of the 72 names radiate a wide range of energy forces. The Light they emit purifies our hearts. Their spiritual influence cleanses destructive impulses from our natures. Their sacred energy removes rash and intolerant emotions, fear, and anxiety from our beings. The Hebrew letters are instruments of power. In fact, the Hebrew word for “letter” actually means pulse or vibration, indicating a flow of energy. The Hebrew alphabet transcends religion, race, geography, and the very concept of language. The three letters signify three spiritual forces—a positive charge, a negative charge, and a ground wire—to create a circuit of energy.
The 72 names are derived from Exodus 14:19-21, which in the original Hebrew have 72 letters each:
http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/magick/72.jpg
Here are the English translation equivalents:
Vehuiah Jeliel Sitael Elemiah Mahasiah Lelahel Achaiah Cahetel Aziel Alaoiah Lauviah Hahaiah Iezalel Mebahel Hariel Hakamiah Lauviah Caliel Leuviah Pahaliah Nelehael Ieiaiel Melahel Hahuiah Nith Haaiah Jerathel Seeiah Reiiel Omael Lecabel Vasariah Iehuiah Lehahiah Chevakiah Menadel Aniel Haamiah Rehael Ieiazel Hahahel Mikael Veuahiah Ielahiah Sealiah Ariel Asaliah Michael Vehuel Daniel Hahasiah Imamiah Nanael Nitael Mebaiah Poiel Nemmamiah Ieialel Harakel Mizrael Umabel Iah Anianuel Mehiel Damabiah Manakel Etaiel Xabuiah Rochel Jabamiah Haiel Mumiah
Baruch atah Adonai Elohaynu melech ha-olam. Amin.
Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe, both now and ever. Amen.
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Great post, Doc, thanks, I appreciate it.
[:)]
VIL
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Excerpts from: Notes on the Orthodox Easter
by M.J. Montes
History
Between AD326 and AD1582, Christianity determined Easter using an algorithm approved by a Church Council in AD325, with the equinox defined as March 21. From AD1054, when the Orthodox and Catholic Churches split in the Great Schism, through AD1582, both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches celebrated Easter on the same date, still using the algorithm from AD325.
The Julian Calendar was used by the European Christan communities until the Gregorian reform of 1582. Since AD1582 October, when the Gregorian Calendar was adopted by much of Catholic Europe, the Orthodox Easter usually falls on dates different than the Western Christian Easter, although apparently the Churches are discussing using the same formula to determine Easter - probably a formula different than that currently used by either Church.
Calendar Reform in the Orthodox Church
In the 1923 May there was a well documented meeting that provided for Calendar Reform in of the Orthodox Church. Among other measures, the Orthodox Calendar would have been adjusted to match the Gregorian calendar date; the proposed leap year rule was different than the rule in the Gregorian Calendar, however the calendars would not disagree until AD2800; more often than not, Easter would be celebrated on the same date in both the Eastern and the Western Churches.
Except for sporadic use in the 1920's, the calendar reform was not adopted. A wonderful resource examining the calendar reform and its lack of acceptance may be found in the excellent article Counter-reformation in Russian Orthodoxy: Popular Response to Religious Innovation, 1922-1925 by Gregory L. Freeze that appeared in the Summer 1995 issue of Slavic Review. Freeze mentions that soon after the adoption by the second (renovationist) council in 1923 May, the renovationists had a full-scale parish revolt on their hands - the common Orthodox parishioners, especially in Russia, did not accept the changes of this council, and indeed, had many other arguments with the renovationists. Other articles concerning Orthodox Calendar Reform that may be found online are: 1) On the Question of the "Revised Julian Calendar" by Father George Lardas; 2) The "Revised" Julian Calendar which offers some explanation of the "New Calendarist views"; and 3) On the Calendar by Father Alexander Lebedeff, which argues for the "Old Calendarist" views.
Notes on Feasts with Fixed Dates in the Orthodox Calendar
The date of Fixed celebrations in the Orthodox calendar is made more difficult by the fact that there are currently differing schools of thought on whether to use the Gregorian or the Julian calendar to determine the date of the Feasts that occur on fixed dates. The two schools of thought are the "Old Calendarists" and the "New Calendarists".
The Old Calendarists use the Julian Calendar to determine the date of ALL religious feasts. This means that Christmas and Epiphany (for example) are 25 Dec. and 6 Jan. JULIAN, repectively. This (currently!) translates to 7 Jan. and 19 Jan. Gregorian, respectively.
The New Calendarists use the Julian Calendar to determine the date of Easter (and celebrations related to Easter) while using the Gregorian calendar to determine the date of fixed celebrations. Thus New Calendarists celebrate Christmas and Epiphany on the same date as the Western Christians, Dec. 25 and 6 Jan. GREGORIAN (respectively). Currently, the New Calendarists are celebrating the fixed feasts 13 days prior to the celebrations of the Old Calendarists.
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Excerpts from: Byzantines.net/feasts/easter
Since the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ took place during the celebration of the Jewish Passover, which foreshadowed our redemption, it was only natural that some Jewish paschal themes and customs have been introduced into the Christian liturgical services. Even the ancient name, "Pascha," was accepted from the Hebrew word "pesach" meaning "to pass over"; hence the English name for the holy-day is the Pasch or Passover.
Our traditional term, "Pascha," in its liturgical application, has three various meanings:
Firstly, it means the historical passover, the liberation of the Jews from Egyptian slavery and their crossing over the Red Sea into the Promised Land. In the New Testament, the term is applied in a typical sense to our liberation from the slavery of sin and our mystical passing "from death to life," and from earth to heaven (comp. Jn. 5:24; 13:1). Thus at the Resurrection Matins we sing: "The Passover is the Lord’s Passover, since Christ our God has brought us from death to life and from earth to heaven" (Irmos of the First Ode).
Secondly, the term is applied to the yearly commemoration of this event, the Feast of Passover. For us Christians it is a yearly commemoration of Christ’s glorious resurrection, which has been celebrated since Apostolic times according to the testimony of St. Paul: "Christ, our Passover, has been sacrificed, let us celebrate the feast" (I Cor. 5:7). In our liturgy, the Pasch is described as "feast of feasts and solemnity of solemnities" (Irmos of the Eighth Ode).
Thirdly, the Pasch is applied to the paschal meal at which the Jews feasted on the sacrificial lamb, which prefigured the "Lamb of God," Jesus Christ (Jn. 1:29). Jesus Himself referred this term to the paschal banquet, telling His disciples: "Go and make preparation for us to eat the Pasch" (Lk. 22:8). Thus, the Easter Canon extols Jesus Christ as our Pasch, since He "willingly sacrificed Himself like a yearling lamb for all of us" (Troparion of the Fourth Ode).
Blessings to All ~
Doc
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Great post, Doc: [:)]
"Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs? Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God's dominion over the earth? Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water? Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, 'Here we are'? Who endowed the heart with wisdom or gave understanding to the mind? Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens." Job 38:31-37
Another perspective is that it can also mean the "passing over" from one era to the next, as Christ was born in the time of Pisces (the Fish) and was the final sacrificial, ransomed, Lamb for the previous ignorant generation ruled by Aries (the Lamb/Ram) and was resurrected as an Augury of the next Sun (of Man) being reborn once again in Aquarius (the Water Bearer), which some say that we are in or soon to be in as the sun Processes or "passes over" the Equinox.
Sidereal Astrology is Wisdom derived from the ancients of the astronomical aspects of the stars (Vedic Astrology) and has nothing to do with many astrology systems frequently used today:
"Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?" So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there." The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them." Matt 14:12-16
A good admonition from the multidimensional Teachings of Christ, to the generation of Pisces, to follow the next Manifestation - and is incidentally the "last supper" for the previous era of Pisces as the Sun precesses the ecliptic into Aquarius - said to be approximately 2,150 years from the time of Christ - as noted that by the astronomical phenomenon of the earth wobbling on its axis (Precession of the Equinox) - where it moves backward one degree approximately every 72 years, which represent the "72 Names of God", in my opinion, wherein there is a new resurrection of both the Sun of Man and the Son of Man once the age is complete:
[:)]
VIL
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Hi VIL!
Nice post! Very interesting and thought provoking to be sure. [8D]
Doc
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Hi everyone!
With the imminent arrival of Pascha/Easter, I thought that this article entitled The Resurrection of Christ: Myth or Reality? might be appropriate and interestinag here at this time. Enjoy! [:)]
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/res.html
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sistine/H-m.jpg
Adonai Yeshua ha-Mashiach Racham. Amin.
Doc
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Here's another interesting article on the same topic:
Excerpts from The Resurrection: Fact or Fiction? by Pat Zukeran
The most significant event in history is the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is the strongest evidence that Jesus is the Son of God. Throughout the centuries, however, there have been scholars who have attempted to deny the account of the Resurrection.
There are several highly accurate historical documents that attest to Jesus.
First, let's look at the four Gospels themselves. The textual evidence decisively shows that the Gospels were written and circulated during the lifetime of those who witnessed the events. Since there are so many specific names and places mentioned, eyewitnesses could have easily discredited the writings. The New Testament would have never survived had the facts been inaccurate. These facts indicate that the Gospels are historically reliable and show Jesus to be a historical figure.
Another document that supports the historicity of Jesus is the work of Josephus, a potentially hostile Jewish historian. He recorded Antiquities, a history of the Jews, for the Romans during the lifetime of Jesus. He wrote, "Now there was about that time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man." Josephus goes on to relate other specific details about Jesus' life and death that correspond with the New Testament. Roman historians such as Suetonius, Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger also refer to Jesus as a historically real individual.
In proving a historical event like the Resurrection, we must look at the historical evidence.
Examining the Evidence
Three facts must be reckoned with when investigating the Resurrection: the empty tomb, the transformation of the Apostles, and the preaching of the Resurrection originating in Jerusalem.
Let us first examine the case of the empty tomb. Jesus was a well known figure in Israel. His burial sight was known by many people.
Jewish and Roman sources both testify to an empty tomb. If the tomb had not been empty, the preaching of the Apostles would not have lasted one day. All the Jewish (or Roman) authorities needed to do to put an end to Christianity was to produce the body of Jesus.
Along with the empty tomb is the fact that the corpse of Jesus was never found. Not one historical record from the first or second century is written attacking the factuality of the empty tomb or claiming discovery of the corpse.
Tom Anderson, former President of the California Trial Lawyers Association states: "Let's assume that the written accounts of His appearances to hundreds of people are false. With an event so well publicized, don't you think that it's reasonable that one historian, one eyewitness, one antagonist would record for all time that he had seen Christ's body? The silence of history is deafening when it comes to the testimony against the resurrection."
Second, we have the changed lives of the Apostles. It is recorded in the Gospels that while Jesus was on trial, the Apostles deserted Him in fear. Yet 10 out of the 11 Apostles died as martyrs believing Christ rose from the dead. What accounts for their transformation into men willing to die for their message? It must have been a very compelling event to account for this.
Third, the Apostles began preaching the Resurrection in Jerusalem. This is significant since this is the very city in which Jesus was crucified...immediately after it occurred. Every possible fact could have been investigated thoroughly.
Five Common Explanations
The Wrong Tomb Theory
Proponents of this first argument state that according to the Gospel accounts, the women visited the grave early in the morning while it was dark. Due to their emotional condition and the darkness, they visited the wrong tomb. Overjoyed to see that it was empty, they rushed back to tell the disciples Jesus had risen. The disciples in turn ran into Jerusalem to proclaim the Resurrection.
There are several major flaws with this explanation. First...the tomb site was known not only by the followers of Christ but also by their opponents. The Gospels make it clear the body was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, a member of the Jewish council. If the body still remained in the tomb while the Apostles began preaching, the authorities simply would have to go to the right tomb, produce the body, and march it down the streets. Remember, the preaching of the Resurrection began in Jerusalem, fifteen minutes away from the crucifixion site and the tomb. These factors make this theory extremely weak.
The Hallucination Theory
This second theory holds that the Resurrection of Christ just occurred in the minds' of the disciples. Hallucinations occur only at particular times and places and are associated with the events. The Resurrection appearances occur in many different environments and at different times. Finally, hallucinations of this nature occur to those who intensely want to believe. However, several such as Thomas and James, the half brother of Jesus were hostile to the news of the Resurrection.
The Swoon Theory
A third theory espouses that Jesus never died on the cross but merely passed out and was mistakenly considered dead. After three days He revived, exited the tomb, and appeared to His disciples who believed He had risen from the dead. This theory was developed in the early nineteenth century, but today it has been completely given up for several reasons.
First, it is a physical impossibility that Jesus could have survived the tortures of the crucifixion. Second, the soldiers who crucified Jesus were experts in executing this type of death penalty. Furthermore, they took several precautions to make sure He was actually dead. They thrust a spear in His side. When blood and water come out separately, this indicates the blood cells had begun to separate from the plasma which will only happen when the blood stops circulating. Upon deciding to break the legs of the criminals in order to speed up the process of dying, they carefully examined the body of Jesus and found that He was already dead.
After being taken down from the cross, Jesus was covered with eighty pounds of spices and embalmed. It is unreasonable to believe that after three days with no food or water, Jesus would revive. Even harder to believe is that Jesus could roll a two-ton stone up an incline, overpower the guards, and then walk several miles to Emmaeus. Even if Jesus had done this, His appearing to the disciples half-dead and desperately in need of medical attention would not have prompted their worship of Him as God.
The Stolen Body Theory
This fourth argument holds that Jewish and Roman authorities stole the body or moved it for safekeeping. It is inconceivable to think this a possibility. If they had the body, why did they need to accuse the disciples of stealing it? (Matt. 28:11-15). Why would the disciples deceive their own people into believing in a false Messiah when they knew that this deception would mean the deaths of hundreds of their believing friends? If they really knew where the body was, they could have exposed it and ended the faith that caused them so much trouble and embarrassment. Throughout the preaching of the Apostles, the authorities never attempted to refute the Resurrection by producing a body. This theory has little merit.
The Soldiers Fell Asleep Theory
The fifth and most popular theory has existed since the day of the Resurrection and is still believed by many opponents of Christianity. This explanation remains an impossibility for several reasons.
First, if the soldiers were sleeping, how did they know it was the disciples who stole the body?
Second, it seems physically impossible for the disciples to sneak past the soldiers and then move a two-ton stone up an incline in absolute silence. Certainly the guards would have heard something.
Third, the tomb was secured with a Roman seal. Anyone who moved the stone would break the seal, an offense punishable by death. The depression and cowardice of the disciples makes it difficult to believe that they would suddenly become so brave as to face a detachment of soldiers, steal the body, and then lie about the Resurrection when they would ultimately face a life of suffering and death for their contrived message.
Fourth, Roman guards were not likely to fall asleep with such an important duty. There were (death) penalties for doing so....and the disciples would have needed to overpower them. A very unlikely scenario.
Finally, in the Gospel of John the grave clothes were found "lying there as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself separate from the linen" (20:6-7). There was not enough time for the disciples to sneak past the guards, roll away the stone, unwrap the body, rewrap it in their wrappings, and fold the head piece neatly next to the linen. In a robbery, the men would have flung the garments down in disorder and fled in fear of detection.
Conclusion: Monumental Implications
These five theories inadequately account for the empty tomb, the transformation of the Apostles, and the birth of Christianity in the city of the crucifixion. The conclusion we must seriously consider is that Jesus rose from the grave. The implications of this are monumental.
First, if Jesus rose from the dead, then what He said about Himself is true. He stated, "I AM the Resurrection and the Life; he who believes in me shall live even if he dies" (John 11:25). He also stated, "I AM the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no man comes to the Father, but through me" (John 14:6). Eternal Life is found through Jesus Christ alone...because Jesus has Conquered Death..."Death has been swallowed up in Victory" 1 Cor. 15:54
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MESSIANIC PROPHECIES FULFILLED IN JESUS
Will the Real Messiah Please Stand Up?
Jesus had various credentials to support His claims to being Messiah, God's son. One credential often overlooked, one of the most profound, is the fulfillment of prophecy in His life.
Over and over again Jesus appealed to the prophecies of the Old Testament to substantiate His claims as the Messiah. Galatians 4:4 says, "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law." Here we have reference to the prophecies being fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
And beginning with Moses and with all the prophets He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures (Luke 24:27).
Jesus said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44). He said, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me" (John 5:46). He also said, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" (John 8:56).
The apostles, the New Testament writers, etc., constantly appealed to fulfilled prophecy to substantiate the claims of Jesus as the Son of God, the Savior, the Messiah..."But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He has thus fulfilled." (Acts 3:18).
"And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures [meaning the Old Testaments], explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, 'This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.'" (Acts 17:2,3).
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures [in other words, Christ's death was prophesied in the Old Testament], and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." (1 Corinthians 15:3,4).
In the Old Testament there are sixty major messianic prophecies and approximately 270 ramifications that were fulfilled in one person, Jesus Christ. It is helpful to look at all these predictions fulfilled in Christ as His "address." You've probably never realized how important the details of your name and address are, and yet these details set you apart from the five billion other people who also inhabit this planet.
An Address in History
With even greater detail, God wrote an address in history to single out His Son, the Messiah, the Savior of mankind, from anyone who has ever lived in history -past, present, or future. The specifics of this address can be found in the Old Testament, a document written over a period of a thousand years, which contains more than three hundred references to His coming. Using the science of probability, we find the chances of just forty-eight of these prophecies being fulfilled in one person to be right at one in 10157 (a one followed by 157 zeros!).
The task of matching up God's address with one man is further complicated by the fact that all the prophecies of the Messiah were made at least 400 years before He was to appear. Some might disagree and say that these prophecies were written down after the time of Christ and fabricated to coincide with His life. This might sound feasible until you realize that the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, was translated around 150-200 B.C. This Greek translation shows that there was at least a two-hundred-year gap between the prophecies being recorded and their fulfillment in Christ.
Certainly God was writing an address in history that only the Messiah could fulfill. Approximately forty major claims to be the Jewish Messiah have been made by men. Only one-Jesus Christ-appealed to fulfilled prophecy to substantiate His claims, and only His credentials back up those claims.
What were some of those details? And what events had to precede and coincide with the appearance of God's Son?
To begin, we need to go way back to Genesis 3:15. Here we have the first messianic prophecy. In all of Scripture, only one man was "born of the seed of a woman" -all others are born of the seed of a man. Here is the one who will come into the world and undo the works of Satan ("bruise His head"). In Genesis 9 and 10 God narrowed the address down further. Noah had three sons, Shem, Japheth, and Ham. Today all of the nations of the world can be traced back to these three men. But in this passage, God effectively eliminated two-thirds of them from the line of Messiahship. The Messiah will come through the lineage of Shem.
Continuing on to the year 2000 B.C., we find God calling a man named Abraham out of Ur of the Chaldees. With Abraham, God became still more specific, stating that the Messiah will be one of his descendants (Genesis 12; 17; 22). All the families of the earth will be blessed through Abraham. Abraham had two sons, Isaac and Ishmael, but many of his descendants were eliminated when God selected his second son, Isaac (Genesis 17;21).
Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau, and God chose the line of Jacob (Genesis 28; 35:10-12; Numbers 24:17). Jacob had twelve sons, out of whom developed the twelve tribes of Israel. God singled out the tribe of Judah for Messiahship and eliminated 11/12ths of the Israelite tribes. And of all the family lines within Judah's tribe, the line of Jesse was the divine choice (Isaiah 11:1-5). One can see the probability of Jesus being the Messiah building.
Jesse had eight children and in 2 Samuel 7:12-16 and Jeremiah 23:5 God eliminated 7/8ths of Jesse's family line: We read that God's man will not only be of the seed of a woman, the lineage of Shem, the race of the Jews, the line of Isaac, the line of Jacob, the tribe of Judah, but that He will also be of the house of David.
A prophecy dating 1012 B.C. (Psalm 22:6-18; cf. Zechariah 12:10 and Galatians 3:13) also predicts that this man's hands and feet will be pierced (i.e., He will be crucified). This description was written eight hundred years before crucifixion began to be practiced by the Romans.
Isaiah 7:14 adds that this man will be born of a virgin -a natural birth of unnatural conception, a criterion beyond human planning and control. Several prophecies recorded in Isaiah and the psalms describe the social climate and response that God's man will encounter: His own people, the Jews, will reject Him and the Gentiles will believe in Him (Isaiah 8:14; 28:16; 49:6; 50:6; 52:53; 60:3; Psalms 22:7,8; 118:22). There will be a forerunner for Him (Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 3:1), a voice in the wilderness, one preparing the way before the Lord, a John the Baptist.
Thirty Pieces of Silver
Notice, too, the seven ramifications of a prophecy (Zechariah 11:11-13; cf. Psalm 41, Jeremiah 32:6-15, and Matthew 27:3-10) that narrows the drama down even further. Here God indicates the Messiah will be (1) betrayed, (2) by a friend, (3) for thirty pieces, (4) of silver, that will be (5) cast onto the floor, (6) of the Temple, and (7) used to buy a potter's field.
In Micah 5:2 God eliminated all the cities of the world and selected Bethlehem, with a population of less than a thousand, as the Messiah's birthplace.
Then through a series of prophecies He even defined the time sequence that would set His man apart. For example, Malachi 3:1 and four other Old Testament verses (Psalm 118:26; Daniel 9:26; Zechariah 11:13; Haggai 2:7-9) require the Messiah to come while the Temple of Jerusalem is still standing. This is of great significance when we realize that the Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 and has not since been rebuilt.
The precise lineage; the place, time, and manner of birth; people's reactions; the betrayal; the manner of death. These are just a fraction of the hundreds of details that made up the address to identify God's Son, the Messiah, the Savior of the world.
Objection: Such Fulfilled Prophecy Was Coincidental
"Why, you could find some of these prophecies fulfilled in Kennedy'. King, Nassar, etc." replies a critic. Yes, one could possibly find one or two prophecies fulfilled in other men, but not all 60 major prophecies and 270 ramifications. H. Harold Artzler, of the American Scientific Affiliation, in the foreword of a book by Peter W. Stoner writes:
"The manuscript for Science Speaks has been carefully reviewed by a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation members and by the Executive Council of the same group and has been found, in general, to be dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented. The mathematical analysis included is based upon principles of probability which are thoroughly sound, and Professor Stoner has applied these principles in a proper and convincing way."
The following probabilities are taken from that book to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to just eight prophecies, "we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that:
"Now these prophecies were either given by inspiration of God or the prophets just wrote them as they thought they should be. In such a case the prophets had just one chance in 10 17 of having them come true in any man, but they all came true in Christ."
This means that the fulfillment of these eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of those prophecies to a definiteness which lacks only one chance in 1017 of being absolute.
Objection: Jesus Tried to Fulfill Prophecies
Another objection is that Jesus deliberately attempted to fulfill the Jewish prophecies. This objection seems plausible until we realize that many of the details of the Messiah's coming were totally beyond human control. For example, the place of birth. I can just hear Jesus in Mary's womb as she rode on the donkey: "Mom, we won't make it!"
When Herod asked the chief priests and scribes, "Where is the Christ to be born?" they said, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it has been written by the prophet" (Matthew 2:5). The time of His coming. The manner of His birth. Betrayal by Judas and the betrayal price. The manner of His death. The people's reaction. The mocking and spitting, the staring. The casting of dice for His clothes. The non-tearing of His garment, etc. Half the prophecies are beyond His fulfillment. He couldn't work it out to be born of the seed of the woman, the lineage of Shem, the descendants of Abraham, etc. No wonder Jesus and the apostles appealed to fulfilled prophecy to substantiate His claim.
Why did God go to all this trouble? I believe He wanted Jesus Christ to have all the credentials He needed when He came into the world. Yet the most exciting thing about Jesus Christ is that He came to change lives. He alone proved the hundreds of Old Testament prophecies that described His coming to be correct. He alone can fulfill the greatest prophecy of all for those who will accept it -the promise of new life: "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you" (Ezekiel 36:25-27). "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come" (2 Corinthians 5:17).
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On this Great Friday of Holy Week, I offer the following article which details the torture and crucifixion of Jesus on this day long ago. I hope the forensic medical analysis of His Passion and Death gives you a better understanding and appreciation of the horrors of these events, and of the fact that only an Act of God could restore life to a body so profoundly dead!
http://www.e-forensicmedicine.net/Turin2000.htm
http://www.historian.net/shroud.htm
http://www.shroudofturin4journalists.com/pathol13.jpg
http://www.catholictradition.org/Christ/holy-face4.jpg
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Hi to all ~
Here's an intriguing article entitled Resurrection View by N.T. Wright, which presents the scientific findings regarding the apparent dematerialization of the body laid to rest in the Shroud of Turin. Quite interesting and thought provoking indeed!
http://www.shroudstory.com/faq-ntwright.htm
Blessed Be All!
Doc
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Hey, Doc, good posts: [:)]
What about the Scripture that states that Christ's body was wrapped in strips of linen? Wasn't the shroud considered unauthentic?:
[:)]
VIL