AYP Public Forum
AYP Public Forum => Support for AYP Pranayama, Mudras and Bandhas => Topic started by: Victor on July 25, 2005, 06:10:53 PM
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I am curious here about who is doing Kechari Mudra and how the practice has changed their pranayama/meditation.
Kechari Mudra was what actually led me to AYP as I had heard of it, even played around with it a bit but had never been actually taught the practice as such and details of how to develop the ability and how to utilize it in Yoga. I now practice Kechari every time that I do pranayama and meditation and must say that this combined with the rest of AYP has really transformed my practice! There is much to share here but I am interested to see who is practicing this and if it is just a small percentage of AYP people or if more are considering it fundemental to the practice as I do.
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I always touch the roof of my mouth just behind the teeth. I don't get any noticable improvement if I go back to the joining of hard and soft palates, and my jaw gets tired after 5 mins like that. Can't get tongue behind uvula yet.
I'm wondering if it might not be a bad idea to have a dental surgeon do a frenectomy...take a lot of the jitters out of the process....
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Hello Victor,
I'm doing Kechari Mudra too and getting great benefit out of it. I was taught it years ago by a Kriya Yoga school, but they teach nothing about frenum-snipping. It was only just over a year ago that I found out that frenum-snipping was a practice ( I did it once or maybe twice myself without being taught) and it was on a google search for frenum-snipping information that I found AYP. So Kechari Mudra was also what led *me* to AYP.
-David
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Hello Victor -
I am just doing the beginning stages of kechari as explained in the yoni mudra kumbhaka lesson. I could just go to the very edge of the elastic tendon along the back of the soft palate (with finger help) but I really need to start snipping I think. I have just been reluctant to start (I am a huge WIMP, although I did purchase a pair of cuticle nippers). I can't say I have really noticed a whole lot but I have only been at it a couple of weeks now.
I do have a dental appointment next week and a pretty progressive-thinking dentist . . . . AND he uses lots of anesthetic too because he knows what a wimp I am. Hmmmm . . . . .
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Hmmm...
I think that a cooperative dentist or oral surgeon might be a good idea. Only problem I can think of is that it could be a bit expensive as it may not be covered by insurance.
I tried the snipping one time and may have snipped a little much the first time because I got a bit of a dull ache for several days and it took about a week and a half to fully heal. I was fortunate due to genetics or karma or whatever to not have much of a frenum to start with and I could get my tongue behind the uvula for as long as I can remember. What yogani gave me was the clear instructions on how to work on this practice and I am deeply grateful for that. Using kechari really changes the way the breath functions during pranayama and that is a main reason for this post. To compare notes on this with other practitioners as well as give those who are working on it an idea of what to expect.
Currently I rest my tongue in stage 3 (tip touching the septum of the nostrils from the inside)during practice. One observation is that this changes the energetics of kumbhaka. Previously while holding the breath there was a clear closing of the throat and while that is still certainly possible there does seem to be a phenomena that happens when I retain teh breath in kechari with the throat open or very slightly modulated. Kechari seems to direct energy clearly upwards at this point to the head and when doing kumbhaka with the throat slightly open it really becomes apparent as streaming energy courses upwards through the body. Sometimes this streaming energy encourages my chest to lift more and then the throat lightly closes but it is a very light modulation of the throat ratrher than a sealing under pressure. I hope I described this well.
Does anyone have similar experiences? Perhaps David? So much has been spoken in the yahoo group about how to snip the tongue in order to get this practice started but not much has been said about how kechari changes energetics of the actual practice.
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Originally posted by Victor
I am curious here about who is doing Kechari Mudra and how the practice has changed their pranayama/meditation.
Hi Victor, my tongue seems to rest in stage one Kechari naturally during pranayama and meditation. I have tried taking it further but I cant seem to get beyond the gag reflex [xx(] So I have assumed I am not quite ready for it yet.
R.C.
RICHARD
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
Hmmm...
I think that a cooperative dentist or oral surgeon might be a good idea. Only problem I can think of is that it could be a bit expensive as it may not be covered by insurance.
I'd be very surprised if anyone can convince an oral surgeon to do this in the U.S. anyway. Even if they wanted to, they might not want to because of the threat of lawsuits. The frenum can be quite big -- in my case, at its base it was probably a lot thicker than my thumb. A removal all-at-once might be quite traumatic, maybe like having a tooth extracted.
But if anyone does find an oral surgeon who would be willing to do that, I'd be very curious to hear about it.
BTW, I do have more to say about my experiences in Kechari, and will get back with more soon.
-David
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thicker than your thumb??? Are you sure that you are talking about your frenum and not the whole base of your tongue? my understanding is that the frenum is the thin tendom that runds through the center and as such could not be compared to a thumb but more like a pisece of string!
Anyway, my dentist in San Francisco says that he is willing to do it as it is a common procedure that is done to relive "tongue tiedness" or a condition where the frenum is so tight tht it makes it difficult to speak and have normal movements of the tongue. this would just be an elective version of the same procedure in a healthy patient who wanted additional mobility. It is certainly much simpler and less invasive than the many plastic surgery operations that are frequently done for peoples vanity!
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
thicker than your thumb??? Are you sure that you are talking about your frenum and not the whole base of your tongue? my understanding is that the frenum is the thin tendom that runds through the center and as such could not be compared to a thumb but more like a pisece of string!
Anyway, my dentist in San Francisco says that he is willing to do it as it is a common procedure that is done to relive "tongue tiedness" or a condition where the frenum is so tight tht it makes it difficult to speak and have normal movements of the tongue. this would just be an elective version of the same procedure in a healthy patient who wanted additional mobility. It is certainly much simpler and less invasive than the many plastic surgery operations that are frequently done for peoples vanity!
Hello Victor,
Oh yes, I'm serious about it being as thick as my thumb at the base. It looks like there is a lot of bio-individuality in this. A lot of it is 'half inside' the tongue in its natural state. It's only with snipping that more of it comes to the surface.
That thumb-sized thing is down to less than a pinkie-finger in size now. When I say thumb-sized though, don't let the description mislead you --- it is not circular in shape, and as I said, most of it is 'inside' the tongue at any time. At this point in fact, pretty much none of it protrudes. And at the base it is squishy and flexible, containing lots of tendon-fibers but not as densely as it used to be in the more stringy area closer to the tip.
My impression is that some of the tendon-fibers in the squishy area at the base (further back inside the tongue) go up somewhere close to the tip which is not exposed at the surface. Anyway, they are certainly 'limiting' fibers for tongue extension, which I know because they become taut and hard when I pull out my tongue. Actually, I take advantage of this in the frenum-snipping technique I am using.
Your frenum may be sufficiently non-limiting that you won't need the whole thing removed. I was aware of that procedure for dealing with tongue-tiedness, but it wouldn't be enough in a case like mine --- I am at the other extreme of this biology --- after the earliest snipping, (when I got a lot of bang-for-my-snip) I have had to do a LOT of snipping to get far. Actually, I am doubly disadvantaged, because apart from having an elaborate and very limiting frenum, I think I also have a very long soft palate -- my tongue can now come out I'd say five or six centimeters from my front teeth and I still can't get it over the soft palate.
Another thing -- I've pretty much snipped away all frenum that is visible on the upper half of my tongue (when I put it 'up') and I've reached a limit there. I have to work on the bottom half to get anywhere now. I do know that Yogani did not have to do this---he was able to work on the top alone in order to get his tongue to any level of freedom that he needed. [It is possible that this condition is the result of the speed at which I have been snipping --- and that if I wait long enough, more fibers will be exposed at the tip. I don't know about this, and I don't need to, since there are still fibers well-exposed at the bottom that I can work on].
And no, I'm not cutting my tongue itself!! [:)] That would hurt and bleed like hell and what I am doing does not.
I don't think I'll get significant mobility from here until nearly all of my frenum is gone. (There is a lot remaining and it is all much the same length.) I'm using a different frenum-snipping technique now, one I developed from experimentation, which does not use the cuticle-snipper, and I might be able to be convinced to explain it individually to people if they are interested in it (I call it 'tooled talavya'.) But I'm not going to post it up for general use, (at least not now -- I may convince myself to later) because I think it requires more skill than the cuticle-snipper-based method in order to do it well. This alternative technique though allows for much more significant, and therefore much faster frenum-snipping, and is particularly helpful when the frenum no longer protrudes from the surface of the underside of the tongue, as in my case.
>> It is certainly much simpler and less invasive than the many plastic surgery operations that are frequently done for peoples vanity!
Absolutely. But the law isn't necessarily smart, juries even less smart, and a surgeon who does a common procedure, even if done only for vanity, is on safer legal territory than a surgeon who does a very unusual one, even if it is for a much more profound reason. So I think if an oral surgeon is asked to remove a really big chunk of frenum ( a qualitatively different operation to the less invasive tongue-tiedness one) he or she may balk. But maybe not...
-D
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Hi everyone,
I'm new to this forum and I have a question about frenum snipping. I took my 1st snip today, not as bad as I thought: It didn't hurt and there was just a tiny drop of blood.
I would like to do this again, maybe next week. The question is where? Do I snip some other part of the frenum, or do I snip on the same spot but deeper?
Just wanted to add that I've been browsing through your forum and I really enjoy the posts and the people [:)]
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same spot. you want to continue on the same spot so that each time you get a little deeper
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Hello,
I'm going to give you a second opinion on that one. My answer is different to Victors.
See Yogani's lesson on snipping:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html
>> Tiny snips, each as small as a hair or
a very thin string. A sterilized, sharp cuticle snipper (like a small
wire cutter) can be used to do the job, bit by bit. When we lift our
tongue up, we can see right away where the point of greatest stress
on the frenum is.
The lesson is written to be applicable each time you snip, when the frenum is fully healed -- look for the point of greatest tautness and snip there. The point of greatest tautness could be the same as the last point you snipped, (and then you would be snipping as Victor said) but over time it could become different. (If you can't find it, choose what you think is among the tautest.)
When the frenum is fully healed after the week or two it takes, there will be no gap or hole left in the frenum, by the way. The frenum appears to just melt away as the snipping removes it over time!
You can find more information about more significant snipping from this other lesson. If you read this lesson you may also get a good picture of what is happening fiber-wise when you snip.
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/223.html
quote:
Originally posted by veritasophia
Hi everyone,
I'm new to this forum and I have a question about frenum snipping. I took my 1st snip today, not as bad as I thought: It didn't hurt and there was just a tiny drop of blood.
I would like to do this again, maybe next week. The question is where? Do I snip some other part of the frenum, or do I snip on the same spot but deeper?
Just wanted to add that I've been browsing through your forum and I really enjoy the posts and the people [:)]
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David and Victor,
Thank you for your answers.
I hadn't seen the http://www.aypsite.com/plus/223.html post, it clarifies a lot of things.
I've been trying to perform kechari for a while now, doing talavya kriya and milking. Progress has been extremely slow. I think this snipping is the answer.
Again thank you for your clarifications.
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There's quite an interesting brief video of someone who has been ablt to 'swallow' their tongue from the fourth grade and on. Take a look at:
http://gprime.net/video.php/tongueswallowing
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Hello Rabar:
Thank you for that.
However, it is not swallowing the tongue. It is going up to stage 2 (and possibly 3). You can tell because the soft palate on top is being pushed forward from behind. If the tongue were going down the gullet, the soft palate would not be pushed forward because there would be nothing behind it. Of course, one can call kechari stages 2-4 "swallowing the tongue" and most would not know the difference. "Swallowing," most people can understand. But up into the center of the head via the nasal pharynx? Few can imagine that, even though it is much easier to do than swallowing of the tongue.
Perhaps this young man has a future in yoga. He has a gift. The question is, will he have the bhakti to go with it?
It is an excellent video of entering stage 2. Thank you!
The guru is in you.
PS -- See these cross sectional sketches for perspective http://www.aypsite.com/plus/kechari_image1.html
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Thanks so much, Rabar! A picture really is worth a thousand words - the video answered a lot of questions for me about where the tongue goes in stage 2.
meg
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Interesting. that kid is definitely demonstrating Kechari. It somehow makes the whole thing seem a little more silly to watch this way..........but why be too serious?
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Hi all,
It is said in the scriptures that Kechari Mudra gives one complete control over the prana within a persons body.
Has anyone experienced this control?
Do what u do, DO WELL
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Hello everybody!
This is my first post on this forum, so, please, excuse me, if have not posted in the right thread, not read the manual, or whatever.
I went to a lecture series on the Hatha Yoga Pradipika and during the part concerning the kechari mudra I tried if I could get my tongue inte my nasal cavity, which I could. I asked the teacher about it and he just smiled.
I have been experimenting every once in a while to see what I can find with my tongue. I can do alternate breathing with my tongue blocking each nostril. I thought that the tongue should rest on the roof of the nasal cavity in kechari mudra, but when looking at pictures it seems that the tongue should stick right up at the opening of the cavity. What is right? And what about the secret spot? Where is it? I found some kind of spot on the floor of the nasal cavity, close to the nostrils, which I can touch with the bottom of the front of my tongue. Please, do not use anatomical terminology but explain in room terms.
I have only been practising yoga for a bit more than a year, maybe it is to early to practice kechari, but it feels tempting doing something people find difficult but that I could do spontaneously. I could do full lotus the first time I tried it as well. Some fellow practioners are convinced that I must have been practicing in an earlier life, but then I must been quite sloppy concerning many of the other asanas, pranayamas and bandhas, which I do not get at all.
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quote:
Originally posted by Lavazza
Some fellow practitioners are convinced that I must have been practicing in an earlier life, but then I must been quite sloppy concerning many of the other asanas, pranayamas and bandhas, which I do not get at all.
Hi Lavazza, and welcome!
Yes, I would agree. Our tendencies in this life are coming from somewhere, and reincarnation is as good an explanation as any. But that is neither here nor there. The real question is, where do we go from here?
Success with mudras like kechari is a chicken and egg thing. They foster what we call in AYP, "ecstatic conductivity" in the nervous system. That is, a mudra like kechari is both cause and effect. When we are moving into effect mode (and further cause) we will know beyond any doubt that the "secret spot" in about half way up the edge of the back edge of the septum inside our nasal pharynx -- that is the divider between left and right nasal passages. We need go no further than that (stage 2 kechari) to achieve a good connection, and it is very easy to be there once we have gone above the soft palate. The rest after that (stages 3 & 4...) is icing on the cake. Check AYP Lesson #108 (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html) for details (diagrams included there).
But how to get that chicken and egg ecstatic conductivity going? It begins with deep meditation, and that is where I recommend you start, just as the AYP lessons suggest if you take them in order. Then there can be a logical buildup from there into spinal breathing pranayama, mudras, bandhas, samyama, tantra, etc. In this approach, it goes from inner silence to ecstatic conductivity and onward to the unity of outpouring divine love, which is working from the inside out instead of the other way around (beginning with physical techniques), which can be problematic.
As it says in the New Testament, "Seek first the kingdom of God and all will be added..." That is the underlying approach in AYP -- inner silence first by very easy means (deep meditation), and all the rest follows naturally.
As for doing kechari now, if you are a natural, it will not hurt. It will have more effect when you have some inner silence coming up and are cultivating ecstatic conductivity with spinal breathing and the additional means suggested in the lessons. It all works together like that.
The most important thing by far is to establish and stick with a stable daily practice. It does not take a lot of time -- just regularity of 20-30 minutes twice each day like clockwork, with a commitment to do it for as long as it takes. With that, we find steady progress over time, and will be in a position to take on more according to our inclinations. Along the way, we also find ourselves developing essential skills in "self-pacing" of practices as the energies begin to move within us, which is navigating the process of purification underway in our nervous system. And so it goes, ever-onward in expressing the infinite divine within us. You can read a lot about it in the AYP lessons, books and here in the forums.
Wishing you the best on your chosen path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Thanks very much for the quick answer. I have been practicing zen meditation earlier and now I am practicing Ashtanga vinyasa, but only once or twice a week. After a pranayama retreat I got a "prescription" (after pulse reading etc. establishing me as a Vata-Pita) for Bhastrika and Sitali, but I am sad to say that I have not kept up my practice.
I still do not understand what the secret spot is. I guess I have to get a good dictionary to check up the anatomy. Should it be touched with the top or the bottom of the tip of the tongue? Is it on the the floor, roof, entry or exit of the nasal cavity?
I will not try a regular practice of kechari until I have a more regular practice in asanas, pranayama and meditation.
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quote:
Originally posted by Lavazza
I still do not understand what the secret spot is. I guess I have to get a good dictionary to check up the anatomy. Should it be touched with the top or the bottom of the tip of the tongue? Is it on the the floor, roof, entry or exit of the nasal cavity?
Hi again Lavazza:
See kechari stage 2 in this diagram: http://www.aypsite.com/plus/kechari_image1.html
The secret spot is right where the tip of tongue is there, on the edge of the nasal septum. Or maybe just a tad higher. There can be slight anatomical differences between people.
The secret spot can also be reached indirectly by placing the tip of the tongue up on the roof of the mouth where the hard and soft palates meet. That's right under the edge of the nasal septum, and is kechari stage 1 (also shown on the diagram).
As for what the secret spot is, it is an ecstatic connection point that promotes the rise of ecstatic conductivity in the entire nervous system. At a certain point on our spiritual journey, the spot becomes as ecstatically sensitive as the genitals, but with a different purpose -- the cultivation of divine ecstasy throughout the nervous system. (Indeed, our sexual function can be directly coaxed in this direction also, but that is a different subject - tantra!) The same is true of all the mudras and bandhas. They become ecstatically sensitive. Sambhavi is a very famous one. We often see the saints depicted with eyes raised. Why? Because it feels extremely good all over!
It's the same with kechari and the secret spot, and all the mudras and bandhas. When they become ecstatic, they combine and work together as one in many subtle ways. In AYP, that automatic coordination of ecstasy body-wide is called the "whole body mudra."
But again, it all rides on deep meditation and the cultivation inner silence, so we are wise to be starting at the beginning.
The guru is in you.
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Hi Lavazza,
Welcome to the Kechari club! Sounds like you are doing great, just follow Yoganis advice and practice every day twice a day without fail and you will be doing great! You can explore your nasal anatomy with your tongue any time you like in order to become familiar but when you meditate just let the tongue rest on the nasal septum and practice.
Kechari is actually part of an integrated connection of shambhavi and mula bandha in siddhasana all done in a coordinated fashion to draw energy up the spine and direct it to the third eye point. By gazing at the thrid eye in shambhavi while doing kechari you create a powerful point of focus for the energies drawn up from the pelvis. This coordinates with mula bandha and siddhasana which creates a lift first from the pelvis and then going up into the spine. This is the energetic essence of the pranayama that we do. It all fits together like parts of a puzzle and each piece reinforces all the other pieces. The only way to really feel it is to practice daily and to remember the details until they become second nature.
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It seems like we are thinking of the same spot, after all, Yogani. There is a spot on the floor of the nasal cavity where the soft and the hard palate meet that feels special when I touch it with the bottom of the tip of my tongue.
Victor, I cannot keep my tongue in the nasal cavity for long, just a few breaths. The air coming in makes the tongue tickly and I have yet to find a really relaxing place to rest it. Roof of the cavity seems best. Then the air goes to the bottom of the tongue which is less sensitive.
Thanks for the welcome.
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just keep exploring, it will come
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Now I have found something. A small passage that is over the holes of the nose. First I close the hole of the nose with the tongue, then I go higher and squeeze the tongue into a cavity that I did not know of before.
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yes thats it! now just explore the cavity and get used to your tongue staying up there for a longer time
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Thanks, Victor. If we are talking about the same place there is one cavity for each nostril. First there is the nostril, some millimetres further up there is a smaller hole, and and further up there is a small cavity.
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just explore the whole region until it becomes familiar. no right or wrong there
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Hi
I thought people might be interested in the info I found out about Kechari. I am a complete beginner with regards to kechari and have spent a long time doing my research, gathering material from lots of places, although since reading Yogani's writings I have sppeeded up somewhat!
This is to do with stretching the soft palate. Hope people find it interesting.
"One thing that helps speed up getting the tongue back past the uvula is to use a spoon in addition to the two methods of stretching the tongue. The spoon is used to stretch the soft material from which the uvulahangs down. (I suggest a spoon simply because even the sides of the handle are generally rounded and won't cut into the soft material.)
Take a spoon and bend the last half inch or so, of the end of the
handle, at a ninety degree angle. Stick the spoon handle back into your mouth (you will be holding the rounded part that is normally used to for eating) until it is just past the uvula and then raise it up and use it to pull on the soft area of the palate and stretch it towards the front of your mouth. It should stretch fairly easily. This will help you to get your tongue behind the uvula and pointing upwards (you will be able to feel the back entrances of the nostrils), but you will no doubt still have to work on stretching the tongue with the other two methods in order to get the tongue high enough in the buccal cavity to touch the top."
I should point out that I secured a cocktail spoon, a long one, and have bent the end of the handle back to try to achieve the desired effect. So far I am unable to get there without wanting to vomit.
And after many years of not wanting to even contemplate snipping the frenum I am now considering asking my friendly dentist to get her laser out. (!)
I am still taking my time but now realise how important the technique is. I am sure it is one of Life's great Secrets.
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Hi SparkyfoxMD:
Thanks for posting that. Below is my reply that was sent when we discussed this in email some weeks ago.
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There can be some short term benefit in the spoon technique you mention for stretching the soft palate to achieve initial entry into stage 2 kechari. But I don't see much value in it beyond that, as it is the degree of freedom of the tongue from the frenum tying it down underneath that determines both short term and long term progress in the practice. The soft palate has a certain "home position" that it always returns to (thankfully), so there is no progression of more release or stretching of the soft palate over time. Once the hymen-like band across the back edge of the soft palate has been stretched (by tongue entry which can be with finger help and/or the spoon method you mention), then the deed is done, and it will be the degree of tongue freedom that will determine progress from then on. This can be seen in the kechari diagrams here: http://www.aypsite.com/plus/kechari_image1.html
Posting the spoon technique would be of interest to kechari connoisseurs in the AYP forum, so please consider doing so. Aside from sharing, I expect you would get some useful feedback, as there are others who are in kechari stage 2 and beyond there. You can pull up numerous topics on kechari by doing a forum search. Some of the methods discussed are quite creative. Where there is a will, there is a way when the bhakti and inner energies are right for it.
The soft palate is much less of an obstacle than it appears. It is a trap door that folds down once the tongue gets behind (left or right side will be the shortest path). I suggest you follow your heart on kechari, taking your time, going step by step. I do not subscribe much to radical means like surgery (see lesson #108 (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html) for the "tiny snips" approach), though some are driven to that by their own bhakti. It is a personal choice. You may wish to interact with some in the forum to gain more perspectives.
Keep in mind that AYP is a comprehensive integrated open source on practices, of which kechari is only one aspect. In AYP there are suggested prerequisites to kechari including deep meditation, spinal breathing, other mudras and bandhas and more, all of which work together to cultivate unshakable inner silence, ecstatic bliss and outpouring divine love.
The guru is in you.
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I have been able to use two fingers and push my toungue back into the nasel cavity. Why is this not good enough? I have done this about 10 times and each time it is a little easier and will stay longer held by the membrane. Is it necessary that the toungue be able to go back by itself? Is it not just as effective if I need to use my fingers to get it there? It seems that ths saves a lot of cutting.
Dave (rat)
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Hi Dave-rat - This is not an answer to your question, but I've been trying for some time to push my tongue back with my fingers, and I've been a frenum-snipping fool as well, but still no kechari. I'm thinking, therefore, that your frenum may not need any cutting, or possibly only a small amount in order to get your tongue to stay in the nasal cavity by itself. Lucky you. And then once you're up there, you'll probably eventually want to go further up with your tongue, as there are more surprises further on up the passage, so I would imagine that at some point you're going to want to lengthen your tongue a bit. If you're averse to cutting, you might try milking, or stretching the tongue. There are many posts on this, if you're interested.
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sparkyfoxMD, thanks for the great posting. Please post more. It's so GREAT to see different perspectives on all this stuff!!
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Hi all,
Some beginner questions here:
1.
I am not an English speaker, and I can't find "cuticle snipper" in my dictionary. What actually is cuticle snipper for ? I mean the original use of it.
2.
When I stretch my tongue up, the greatest stress on the frenum is along the whole edge of the frenal membrane. Should I snip closer to the higher (ie.,closer to the tongue) or lower end? Or it's not that important?
Alvin
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the cuticle snipper is a small scissor for fingernail care, I think to cut small pieces of skin at the bottom of the nail (cuticle).
This is something you don't usually do, but if a little piece sticks out it's painful. Google "cuticle scissor"
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actually, teh term scissor could be confusing as a cuticle snipper is not a scissor but more similat to a wire clipper where the blades do not cross
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oops, google cuticle snipper
Alvin's probably still waiting for an answer to the second question but I can't help.
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Alvin - I snip in the middle, where it's the thinnest. The key is to keep snipping in the same spot; don't move up or down the frenum for more coverage, as it doesn't work that way. Snip, let it heal, snip again in the same spot, etc. And milking, or stretching, the tongue in between snips is highly recommended. Just yank on your tongue.
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Thanks very much for the reply. I will start snipping soon.
Actually, I asked because I googled "cuticle snipper" but it gave only a few not very helpful results. (in fact I got a few yoga sites including AYP, and a yoga forum where Victor is a frequent visitor!) The supposedly wrong name "cuticle scissor" give me much more pictures to see what it is!
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Cuticle snippers are common in drugstores here in the US. All of the chains certainly have them. I don't know what it is like in Hong Kong.
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I got much better results on Google doinga search for cuticle NIPPER click here (http://shop.avon.com/avonshop/Assets/images/prod/prod_1002537_lg.gif)
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Oh, thanks victor. Seems that I misunderstood what it is before. Fortunately I have not yet bought one. I guess the reason for using it (rather than e.g. a knife or a scissor) is the precision it gives?
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Yes Alvin, it gives a more precise cut and you need precision for this delicate job
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I snipped yesterday. There was some blood. The frenum membrane now almost disappeared, and i could feel the improvement in tongue flexibility. (though I am still in stage 1, and I have not started doing Kechari) But i think my next snip would be more painful and would bring out less flexibility gained since I have to start working with something "thicker".
From my very limited experience of stretching my tongue, the frenum (frenum membrane, as I still had it before) seems to be going downward (towards the base of the tongue) and the whole edge get closer to the tongue surface. This makes the frenum less visible (and harder to snip) while not much improvement in tongue is gained! That's why I decided to snip without further stretching. It seems to me that "milking" may also bring the frenum edge less visible. What's the experience of the others?
I am thinking of a way to make the frenum thinner and coming outward, but so far it's purely "thought-experiment" without actual trying. So I'll tell you guys only after I tested it. If it doesn't work, then I'll have to use David's "tooled talavya kriya" very soon. That's rather violent for me.....
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Alvin, I am pleased to see that a skeptic such as yourself has the faith to try something as committed as tongue snipping. It is very imressive!
I would work on stretching your tongue at this point, I think that the word stretching is better than milking really. Just when you have a chance in privacy just dry your tongue out a bit so you can hold it with your fingers or a cloth and gently stretch it in different directions. Don't snip again until this one heals (generally a week or two). then when you feel that it has healed repeat the process. It may take some time before you get to kechari but yoga has never been for those who lack patience.
I salute you!
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I wonder if Bob Cooley's discovery would make any difference here? He discovered that the only way to get a lasting stretch of a muscle is the muscle must be contracting as you are stretching it, and there must be full range of movement also. So to apply that here, the tongue would have to be resisting the whole time, then your fingers slowly pulling it from shortest to longest position, several reps. The harder the resistance the better. Haven't tried this on my tongue, but with other muscles it works.
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Hi Etherfish,
It will not work in stretching the tongue, but will probably work in the milking stage.
What Bob Cooley wrote is (mainly) the contraction/relaxation (CR)method, though he may used different names. An effective way of stretching, of course. (But, btw, I don't think he is the first one to come up with that. I found a couple of books talking about this. But Bob Cooley seems to be a better advertiser.)
In the usual muscles, what we think we're stretching are the tendons which connect the muscles and bones (the "lever") together. But the length of the muscles is actually more crucial for flexibility. As our muscles get leaner or more relaxed, it becomes longer, and we become more flexible. That's why even in a single day, you may find your flexibility changes. That's because you tends to have tighter muscles sometimes, e.g. in the morning. So, what we're working on, is more the muscles than the tendon. If we are able to relax more the muscles we're stretching, we will find our flexibility improved much both immediately and in the long run. The CR method works well because it makes use of the information from stretching (usually consists of slight pain or discomfort in the muscles you're stretching), helps you build up awareness or that muscles (by feeling and then tightening them); and the "relax" part will then be more effective. Probably (this part is my guess) it also works by engaging the muscles actively, so that the rearrangement/repairing of muscles tissues is faster after the practice.
The difference here, for the tongue, is that the fiber (in the frenum) we want to "stretch" is NOT attached to the muscles of the tongue. So contracting the tongue against the stretch will not have the same effects here.
However, I think it's a nice idea to do it in milking, where we literally want the tongue muscles (rather than the fibers in the frenum) to be longer.
Alvin
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I was really scared to snip the frenum membrane. So I took the easy way out. I applied Anbesol to my frenum. Then when I snipped it, I felt nothing. I washed my mouth with mouthwash. Since it was numb, I did not feel the burn. Maybe because the mouthwash was an antiseptic, the snip healed in a day. Actually, the next day itself, I had no pain. Is this OK to do?
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Shanti - I tried the Anbesol too. I didn't like it b'c of the taste and texture, and wasn't sure about the safety of it when cutting deep. (It may be fine, but I didn't want to take any chances). Someone here on the forum suggested clove powder, which I like very much. Nice numbing and okay taste. My snips heal very quickly too - by the next day they're almost completely healed over, but I've been waiting to cut again, rather than cutting every day, as ultimately I don't think it provided much progress. Once a week or so is probably better. That's what everyone has said all along, but I have to figure these things out on my own. :)
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hi meg and Shanti,
Healing in one day is relly quick. How much do you snip? Is the quick healing related to the use of Anbesol/Clove powerder?
Meg, in those days where you snip everyday, did you snip along the same edge?
It makes sense that snipping too much on one day do not help much. In the long run, we'll have to wait for the new fibers to come outward anyway. But I am thinking about snipping in different positions of greatest tension, by stretching the tongue sideway in stead of up and backward. The tautest position will be different then. Did anyone try this? And does it help?
Alvin
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Alvin wrote:
"What Bob Cooley wrote is (mainly) the contraction/relaxation (CR)method, though he may used different names. An effective way of stretching, of course. (But, btw, I don't think he is the first one to come up with that. I found a couple of books talking about this. But Bob Cooley seems to be a better advertiser.) "
That doesn't sound the same as what's in my "Genius of Flexibility" book. Do you have an earlier book maybe? The book I have doesn't say contract and relax. It says contract and resist, then move through the range of motion with the resistance. Is this what the other books say?
The clove powder doesn't help healing; what it is for is numbing. Oil of clove also does that and may be easier to apply.
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I have only glimpsed through Bob Cooley's book in a bookstore. The CR method is more well-known and that's what I found in other books. One of my yoga teachers (trained primarily as a ballet dancer before she turned into yoga) teaches BOTH of the methods here, depending on what postures are being done. But for stretching poses (as opposed to, e.g., the warriors) she always tell us to use the CR method.
Bob Cooley's method is a slight variation of the CR method. The "philosophy" behind is the similar. I am not sure if his method(removing the relaxing part and moving around with the tension?) is really better, but it's unlikely. I could see that his method may be better on "strengthening and increasing range of motions" achieved together, but for "increasing range of motions", CR is probably better.
So Bob Cooley's method is not bad. It's an efficient way of stretching and strengthening. But what he claimed about the other "physiological, spiritual, emotional and psychological concerns" is highly overstated. I think he simply copied much of it from Chinese medical knowledge, which may be rare in USA but is very common here in my country.
BTW, there are many such kind of things in recent years. They contained either something which does not work at all or which is a very rough copy from a higher source. Remember the "The Photoreading Whole Mind System"? When it first appeared, many people praised highly about this system. But only the truth will last for long. This system simply doesn't work. (well, at least it isn't better than what you've known already.) So it can't arouse our interests for very long.
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Unfortunately I am highly sensitive to clove, so I can't use it for numbing. What actually is "Anbesol"? Can't google it out.
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quote:
Originally posted by Alvin Chan
hi meg and Shanti,
Healing in one day is relly quick. How much do you snip? Is the quick healing related to the use of Anbesol/Clove powerder?
Meg, in those days where you snip everyday, did you snip along the same edge?
It makes sense that snipping too much on one day do not help much. In the long run, we'll have to wait for the new fibers to come outward anyway. But I am thinking about snipping in different positions of greatest tension, by stretching the tongue sideway in stead of up and backward. The tautest position will be different then. Did anyone try this? And does it help?
Alvin
Hi Alvin - Anbesol is an oral pain reliever containing Benzocaine. When I snipped every day, it was when I was in the stage that you're in now, where there was excess frenum that cut away very quickly. I mistakenly thought that it was always going to be that easy. When I got to the meatier portion (closer to the base of the tongue) I had to back off, and then experimented with the approach that David calls "tooled talavya kriya" . (Do a search and read up on it - it's good). Definitely always snip along the same edge. There's no point in snipping at more than one spot, as is explained in the post on tooled talavya. Once I started doing that, I could no longer snip every day, and there wasn't any point in it anyway. But this is a bit presumptuous of me - I'm like a virgin giving advice on tantric sex. [:I] Best to listen to the pros who are actually practicing kechari.
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Hi meg, So you're reaching that terrible stage already, in just a few months...I hope I can stay away from David's method for as long as I could (and yet going quick. Am I asking for too much?). So which stage you're in now? And how much did you improved by snipping that quick?
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Hey Alvin - Word has it that in fact it IS okay to snip in several spots on the frenum. Sorry for the misinformation, although it makes the most sense to me to stick to one cut. Will someone plz correct me on this? B'c I thought one cut was the way to go.
Yes, you may well be asking for too much. Your tongue will go into kechari when ready, and all you can do is help it along a little. My tongue is to the back of my throat, but I can't seem to get it 'around the bend'. How much did I gain by snipping so quickly? Hard to say. It got me to this stage faster, but now it's going very slowly, so perhaps there was no gain at all. Slow and steady is probably the best method.
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Clipping in lots of different places is a valid approach. I have done it. A lot depends on what stage in the clipping you are at. While the frenal membrane is still there ( that sharp edge) it might not be as useful -- while the frenal membrane is still there, it might be better to clip again at the same spot in the one session.
But over time when the edge flattens out from clipping, clipping in several spots is an approach. If you do this, there may be a certain amount of redundancy (wastage) in your clipping. For example, you may clip the same fiber twice in two places, along the length of the frenum. At the same time, this wastage is not harmful.
One approach is to speckle the frenum surface with lots of small clips. Another is to clip a series of points across the frenum; this will ensure that there is no redundancy, but it takes more skill and effort.
I hope that helps.
-D
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quote:
Originally posted by meg
Hi Dave-rat - This is not an answer to your question, but I've been trying for some time to push my tongue back with my fingers, and I've been a frenum-snipping fool as well, but still no kechari. I'm thinking, therefore, that your frenum may not need any cutting, or possibly only a small amount in order to get your tongue to stay in the nasal cavity by itself. Lucky you. And then once you're up there, you'll probably eventually want to go further up with your tongue, as there are more surprises further on up the passage, so I would imagine that at some point you're going to want to lengthen your tongue a bit. If you're averse to cutting, you might try milking, or stretching the tongue. There are many posts on this, if you're interested.
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Thanks meg
It did take several months for me to get my tongue in the nasal passage even with my fingers. I do think that all things take time. From what I have heard from other schools of yoga is that it can take years. I do know that a lot of importance is put on kechari. The first time it went up there it felt really intense. I actually felt voilated! It took a couple of times to get used to it. It was just the tip and it did not stay in. Now it is held in by he membrane for a while. It is just there but when I try to do some pranayams with it up there it pops out. I will keep it up and keep trying. When I try without using my fingers it is not even close. I will see what happens. Thanks for your response. How lucky we are for this online satsang.
Dave
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I think you may be judging Bob Cooley too quickly.
His claims were originally just flexibility, then he noticed the other effects as a by-product.
It's not one of those flash-in-the-pan systems that die out quickly. I've noticed a big difference between the stretching I do three times a week with instructors from ballet and martial arts backgrounds, and his method.
Those don't have a lasting effect, but his does.
His system has been growing rapidly for 15 years, and he works with olympic athletes, sports teams and universities. Yes it does mix traditional Chinese medicine with Yoga, but that's another subject for over here:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=692
True, Chinese Medicine is not generally accepted as legitimate in the USA, but it's catching on.
Not that a longer muscle would do you any good for kechari though!
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I tried snipping once at one side of the frenum, the tautest spot when I stretched sideway. I notice that there are considerably more blood, around 10 drops. There would be more, but I pressed on it for a while and it stopped. Is this normal when we snip somewhere other than the frenum membrane?
Also, there are two purple lines running from (the bottom side of) the tongue to the frenum, which I think are blood vessels.[?] At the frenum, they lie in some crucial area. How do you avoid snipping them after the frenum membrane is gone?
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Hi Alvin:
Those purple lines are blood vessels and you should never snip near those.
The side snipping you are doing is not recommended -- it is not the right place, and is very risky...
If you stay on the protruding edge of the center tendon, at the point of greatest tension, and follow a slow course as per Lesson 108 (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html), the blood vessels on either side will not be an issue. If there is no protruding frenum edge in the center, then wait for one -- it will come up eventually as the tongue goes back and upward. If your bhakti and the corresponding energy flow are not yet taking the tongue naturally in that direction, then you are most likely premature with the snipping. My advice is, slow down.
The guru is in you.
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Hi Victor,
This is my first post but I have been finding the forum very informative and supportive, as I can often feel quite isolated in my practise. I practise kriya yoga as taught by my teacher in India, and have recently got to stage 2 in Khechari after 17 months of natural practise. I have felt a big difference after achieving this. I am eager for the tongue to go further up and wonder if that process is as great a leap as from stage 1 to 2? I am also very interested in your experiences of how it has changed your practise.
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Hi Vicki,
Nice to see a female name sake on the board [:D]
The tongue getting past the palate seems like the big hurdle to me. The next real step is developing comfort in the practice so that it becomes second nature. Rather than feeling like a big leap for me the practice of kechari felt more like a piece of the puzzle that fit perfectly into place once it was learned. It took my pranayama practice to the next level and allowed me to feel like i could meditate for the first time. Didn't get lights and sounds or anything dramatic, just a deepening of practices that I had already been doing. It feels part of me now like my smile or the way that I sit or how I breathe. After experimenting I also have found that it doesn't go well for me in general asana practice but helps alot in focus during pranayama and meditation going along with shambhavi mudra and the bandhas to bring the gaze and energy focus to the third eye point.
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Thanks Victor,
At present I can hold the tongue in Khechari for a while but saliva build up causes me to break it. Does it take a while to increase the amount of time the tongue can be left up without having to come down again to swallow?
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Yup it takes a while. Not too long though, more like days or weeks than months.
-Not Victor.
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hello; i want to pick up on the advanced kechari thread [:p]
i was fortunate to succeed in kechari quite quickly and easily. a week or two and i was at the top of the pharynx striving to go beyond the strain, and also exploring into the nasal cavities. that was last june and i am now well familiar with kechari in my daily yoga. the benefits of depth and silence are great. i can stay erect at the base of the skull,or laying the tongue-tip into the left nostril, just in over the round thing and up against the clefts in the membranes while doing my breath-work, but during meditation usually relax along the septum as it is easier to forget the tongue in that relaxed position and let go into deep. there are differences in conductivity in each position, though sometimes that isn't the case and conductivity is as strong in either position. also, conductivity is sometimes noticed only after, while up and about. when i really want to get things moving (besides focusing more intently on my pranic breathing) i find that pushing up into the nasal clefts really jazzes it up.
i'm curious about advanced kechari. i find no literature on this.
i feel that the tongue could go up further. which way would this be? forward, or upward? will a way open up naturally when i'm ready? is there really any benefit to going further, or will Soma fall when the time comes anyway?
Light and Love, alan
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Alan,
I haven't gone into the nostrils yet myself (though my tongue is long enough) -- it sounds like you are starting to, though it isn't totally clear to me.
Yogani does have instructions on getting through the nostrils into stage 4. Did you see them yet?
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hi David; i was into the nostrils within the first week or two. very sensitive at first, not so much now. like Victor, kechari is what brought me to AYP. i've been using kechari since last june. there is a vertical cleft in the membranes, up inside the left nostril that leads forward and upward, that my tongue pushes into. due to the tightness of the cleft i can push only so far. my intuition tells me that maybe this will open up naturally when i am ready. i try to turn my tongue top to the center while pushing into the cleft as i read in an AYP lesson. is this the stage 4 lesson to which you refer? or are there further instructions i haven't read? [xx(][:0][:p] these faces are fun!
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Hello Alan,
for instructions on entering stage 4 I mean Yogani's lesson here:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html
If you decide to do it, make sure you have followed all the cautions on self-pacing.
Regards,
-D
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I can go into my nostrils, but I feel that I only get conductivity with the base of the tip of my tongue resting on the soft palate in stage 2.
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thanks David. that's the lesson i'm familiar with. if going into the left nasal cavity a ways and pushing against the inner membranes is stage 4, then i guess i'm there. something tells me though that the narrow passage deep inside the nostril will relax and open up someday, if need be. i find depth and conductivity just resting against the septum, though. my most dear teacher says this is really quite enough for following his instruction. i guess i can't help myself since my tongue so easily explores this inner environment. lots of Love, alan
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Hi Alan:
Not to disappoint, but the nasal openings from inside are limited by bone all the way around, including the septum in the center. If you look at a skull you will see the thin bone in the center of the nasal opening. The opening will not change much. The way further in is by whatever can be done with the tongue -- twisting, pushing, stretching, etc.
But it is not that big a deal really. After 20 years of playing with kechari, I stay mostly around the septum -- the "secret spot," and use stage 4 (into the nostrils) sometimes for alternate nostril breathing from the inside when doing chin pump. It can be used that way with any form of pranayama, including spinal breathing. But be careful not to overdo it. Once ecstatic conductivity is coming up, less can be more.
You have the angles and everything right for stage 4. It will go as far as it can go. Up is where there is the most running room in my case. Some don't do stage 4 at all due to anatomy. I don't think it makes a big difference. Many reach higher levels of ecstatic conductivity with stage 1 alone. There are few absolutes in this world, and the level of kechari we achieve is not one of them. (Though getting above the soft palate is obviously a pretty big step.)
The guru is in you.
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Cool! Thanks Yogani.
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Hi everyone
Just thought I'd let you know how Im getting on a la kechari. Have been stretching the tongue a lot and am now quite far back.
I went to see my local friendly dentist and talked about having the frenum removed safely...he explained it was very simple and very safe and would do it for about £200 ($350 ish). So I am booked in and going to do it. Might be sore for a little while but shouldnt be any problems. If there are I will let you all know!!!
I decided to go this route because I simply couldnt face mucking about with a pair of cuticle snippers, and am rather accident prone, so possibly might have removed some of my arteries at the same time! Seriously, I think its the best route FOR ME. Will let y'all know how I get on.
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Thanks, Sparky. Let us know how it goes. I am curious about whether he really removes the whole frenum....
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Thanks, Sparky. Let us know how it goes. I am curious about whether he really removes the whole frenum....
So am I David! But I'll certainly let you know!!
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
helps alot in focus during pranayama and meditation going along with shambhavi mudra and the bandhas to bring the gaze and energy focus to the third eye point.
coming in late here....I just want to note that AYP does not suggest bringing energy focus to the third eye point in meditation. I agree; I strongly believe it's best not to direct ANYTHING in meditation. Let the mantra focus the energy wherever it needs to; one's only duty is to return to mantra when it side-tracks but otherwise to let yourself be worked on rather than "do" anything.
Of course, there are different approaches and schools, and if Victor (or anyone else) prefers doing it this way, that's absolutely his right.
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Actually, I would agree with you at this point as far as technique goes Jim. Experientially the practice of kechari during mantra meditation seems to bring energy to the ajna without deliberate effort.
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I don't think I would be able to snip. I get queazy and feel light headed just imagining it. I have recently found a way that gives it a nice stretch. It's just like stretching any other tissue I find - It's like an asana for the tongue.
I push the tip of my tongue upward where the soft and hard palate meet. Straight up, up, as far as my tongue will go. There's a bit more to it, but I eventually find a way to position my tongue to provide maximum stretching of the frenum. Like any other asana, by experimentation, you find the best way for the tongue to provide the best stretch.
After I stop the stretching, I always "taste" a subtle "sweetness". for a second or two. I suppose if I can be disciplined enough to stretch this way every day, eventually I will be able to move my tong to the nasal cavity. Currently the tip can touch the entrance to the nasal cav - I can taste the difference. Patience and determination should eventually get me all the way up....I hope!
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Hi Y - Patience and determination should eventually get you all the way up, but if your tongue/frenum ratio is similar to mine, it'll take a really, really long time. I've been nudging my tongue with my finger the same way you're doing, along with clipping, and finally a month or so ago I got my tongue past the uvula into stage 2. I still can't do it without the help of the finger, but once my tongue is back there, I can remove my finger and the tongue stays for longer periods of time, just checking things out. I need a lot more length before I can probe properly, but getting into stage 2 was a big deal for me. It was like living in a house for 40 odd yrs. and then finding a secret passageway and room. At some point you might consider snipping; you can't be a bigger wimp than I, and the benefits are pretty amazing.
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
Actually, I would agree with you at this point as far as technique goes Jim. Experientially the practice of kechari during mantra meditation seems to bring energy to the ajna without deliberate effort.
victor, if I can niggle and pick at you just a little, even the indirect intent is a mistake. Silence magnifies intent (as we learn with samyama). So even the smallest predispositions can blow up large as we go deeper into silence.
We don't need to bring energy to ajna. We don't need to bring awareness to ajna. That's just not it, I promise. There's NOTHING we need to do and there's NOTHING we need to have done for us. Just let the barber cut your hair and stay out of it.
I get caught up in a thousand more of these sorts of things than you ever will, I promise (I'm too damned analytical for my own good...Iyengar training....). My solution: strip it down. Don't meditate, just sit and say "I am" a lot. I have to keep relearning this. Otherwise I become the meditation version of Ed Norton, with the 90 gazillion things he has to do before he actually hits the cue ball!
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Thanks, Sparky. Let us know how it goes. I am curious about whether he really removes the whole frenum....
Its all done. He removed it completely. Took about 20 minutes. No pain. Mouth sore...getting used to it. Will take a while to heal and I will post updates on how it is going.
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Thanks. Great.
Let me know when it heals fully (might be a few weeks for such a big cut).
In a few days now you can start 'milking the tongue' (might be too sore until then). This will now start to stretch your tongue muscles if necessary. Freed from the frenum limitation, stretching is very rapid in the tongue itself. It's possible that your tongue muscles are already long enough to not need stretching.
Let me know when it is healed.... I have an experiment for you to try if you are interested....
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I am interested too. please keep us updated
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Would a dentist in the US do this?
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Dear Sparky Fox - I'm curious if you had to persuade the dentist, or if she did it without asking any questions? My dentist is a good ol' boy and the idea of explaining myself to him doesn't appeal to me. Is this a routine operation for a dentist? What did you tell them you wanted it for?
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Meg, I have a dentist in san francisco who said he is willing to do it
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Thanks. Great.
Let me know when it heals fully (might be a few weeks for such a big cut).
In a few days now you can start 'milking the tongue' (might be too sore until then). This will now start to stretch your tongue muscles if necessary. Freed from the frenum limitation, stretching is very rapid in the tongue itself. It's possible that your tongue muscles are already long enough to not need stretching.
Let me know when it is healed.... I have an experiment for you to try if you are interested....
Im all up for experiments! Its still quite sore and Im not going to rush anything.
By the way, he was very open to it. He does it in youngsters who are tongue-tied. He asked my why I wanted it done, I told him, and he said, "how interesting". I also said it would help me in my acting career as the voice is very important and the tongue a vital part of that.
His main point was he was happy to do it because he could do it safely...I told him some people try to do it by themselves and he said he was glad I didnt try because everything is quite crowded in my mouth and a little misplaced enthusiasm could have been difficult for me.
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Just thought Id send you an update. Frenum is now removed and although there was soreness for a few days, its now healed well. Went for a checkup and he said I could now begin stretching the tongue if I wanted to. There is still an attachment from the floor of the mouth to the tongue, but he explained it is muscle and not (wiry) frenum. This means it will stretch.
I began stretching and am making some progress; already the tongue goes further back. At this point I have to check my normal "bull in a china shop" approach and try to do things slowly...I keep forgetting its not a race although I am very excitred about the prospects.
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Thanks. This is good to hear.
I think I'm near the home stretch in removing my own frenum -- maybe a few more months. I envy you your dentist!
Since what is left is muscle now, any stretching (should you need it) should progress very rapidly. You notice that pulling your tongue now can only produce a dull ache, from pulling on muscle, and none of the sharp pain that can come from pulling frenum?
In order to most easily stretch your tongue from here, you might want to do a variant on 'milking the tongue': I'd propose just pulling it, (using a cotton handkerchief) and holding it for some time in a pull of constant strength. That's the way muscles stretch best and most comfortably. Just as we do for asanas. No need to jerk the tongue any more for you.
I believe one of the purposes of the jerking action in 'milking the tongue' is to bring frenum fibers to the surface, to help in clipping/cutting. Since you have no frenum now, this isn't necessary any more.
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David - Every time I clip my frenum I gain some good length for about a day, but once it heals the length is gone. :( My tongue is behind the soft palate and up into the nasal passage, and has touched the whatchacallit (boney wall where the tongue so desperately wants to rest), but once the healing starts, it doesn't touch anymore, and furthermore, I can do none of the above without using my finger as a prop. So close and yet so far. I stretch the tongue, but maybe not enough? Is this something I'm supposed to do every day?
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Doesn't anyone believe me around here? Where should I go to get some respeck? [8D]
When you clip, you can gain length from reducing the frenum limitation. It'll be longer for a day or so, then it starts to swell to heal, and you temporarily lose the length you gained, and maybe even a little more length, due to the swelling associated with the healing. So it can even be a little shorter as a result of the swelling. When the healing is done, and the swelling all gone, you should restore the length you gained with the clipping. The healing takes around 1-three weeks.
So in short, when you clip/cut, you gain length immeditately, then lose it for a while due to healing, and it comes back permanently as the healing completes. Longer, shorter, then longer again. Does this make sense? Is this what is happening?
Meg said:
I stretch the tongue, but maybe not enough? Is this something I'm supposed to do every day?
You can be at a frenum limit and a tongue-muscle limit at the same time. However, muscle stretches so quickly and tendon essentiallyu not at all, so, while the frenum is being slowly removed, only a little tongue-pulling is necessary to keep your tongue-muscle stretched so that it goes right up to the frenum limit. No, I don't think you need to pull your tongue every day. I'd say once a week at 100 pulls a time is enough, if you are clipping slowly or moderately.
Tip: when you pull your tongue, the dull ache is stretching muscle; the sharp-quaility mild pain is from frenum being pulled. If you pull regularly, your muscles will be sufficiently stretched that there will be little dull ache, and more sharp-quality mild pain.
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quote:
Originally posted by david_obsidian
Doesn't anyone believe me around here? Where should I go to get some respeck? [8D]
Ah heck, I respeck you as good as anyone, an' when it come to frenum bustin', you da man.
quote:
So in short, when you clip/cut, you gain length immeditately, then lose it for a while due to healing, and it comes back permanently as the healing completes. Longer, shorter, then longer again. Does this make sense?
Yes.
quote:
Is this what is happening?
No.
I cut, gain length, heal, lose length, and am perpetually back wherest I started. [:(]
quote:
I'd say once a week is enough, if you do 100 pulls which is what I do.
I'll try pulling instead of milking. Thanks.
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try just genrally pulling and stretching. i did it on long drives when i had nothing better to do, could be boring to just sit and pull on your tongue for a half hour. it worked well for me, now inever even bother to stretch it, just do my practice
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Meg said:
I cut, gain length, heal, lose length, and am perpetually back wherest I started.
I'm not sure exactly what is happening for you but I am quite sure the cutting will produce extensibility in the long run. My guess is that after a clipping has healed, you aren't quite back where you started, but a little ahead of it, and you can't yet notice it. My cuts were almost always aggressive, so I would always notice the extension after the healing.
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Hi all
Happy kecharin'!
I was reflecting on possible sources of why kechari was easy for me.
I've always goofed off with gestures stretching my face around making any number of grotesque images to the delight of family and friends (sometimes). One thing I've always done is stretch my tongue to the limit. Though it's already long I have always extended it out and down to the fullest extent, closing it off with lips and teeth and pushing out more, always keeping the muscles strained. I actually pinch off the tongue so that it gets engorged with blood and grows fat. I know, I'm weird! I'm thinking this kind of stunt over the years helped stretch my tongue. Try it. Just always keep that thing working. Make it a super-worm!
alan
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Hi
Its me again. I found that using a piece of cotton gauze helps get a grip on the tongue in order to exercise it. And thanks David, pulling is doing its job very quickly. Im already further back than ive ever been.
And, curling the tongue back, then using fingers to push, I felt the opening for the first time today! Very excited! And then I gagged!
Onwards and upwards, slowly slowly
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alan.
I think my ability to do khecari might be due to my habit of removing debris in my eu-tubes with my tongue.
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Victor, I think you have had a very non-limiting frenum, and were just tongue-muscle limited for some time. All you needed to do was pull your tongue a little and your tongue muscles got long enough rapidly.
A person who is more frenum-limited needs to clip that to get anywhere. Even a little regular pulling for them keeps their tongue muscles long enough so that the tongue muscles are never more limiting than the frenum.
quote:
Originally posted by Victor
try just genrally pulling and stretching. i did it on long drives when i had nothing better to do, could be boring to just sit and pull on your tongue for a half hour. it worked well for me, now inever even bother to stretch it, just do my practice
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that may be true david. I did however do quite a bit of stretching of the tongue as my job often gives me manny hours on the road with nothing to do to entertain myself so i do recall one such day of stretching my tongue in this fashion for hours at a time.this was after i did my one snip and it did seem to help alot. i may just be lucky though, it is not something that you see many people comparing
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report: stretching going well, getting further back. Gagging reflex getting less. Still haven't touched the opening at the back yet. Able now to meditate with the tomgue back (kechari stage 1?) and leave it there, which I wasn't able to do before. Im taking it slowly and steadily.
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Hi SparkyfoxMD:
A hint that can be helpful: The journey from stage 1 to stage 2 kechari (going behind the soft palate) is actually a thrust forward with the tongue as soon as it clears the back edge. Not up, but forward. The easiest place to do that from (shortest distance to get behind) is on the left or right side of the edge of the soft palate. The tongue can roll right in from either side, while going up the middle takes more length.
Also, keep in mind that the soft palate is not a rigid boundary. As soon as we are behind it, it folds down and forward like a natural trap door. It returns to normal position just as naturally when the tongue is removed from the pharynx. So the idea of the entrance being an opening "way back there" is somewhat of an illusion. As soon as the pharynx is penetrated, the opening expands all the way forward to the edge of the hard palate. See cross-sectional images of kechari here: http://www.aypsite.com/plus/kechari_image1.html
Carry on!
The guru is in you.
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Thank you Yogani!
Im just trying to figure out what that actually feels like...I can roll the tongue to the left or right at the back but havent yet figured out the next direction. But I am persevering and I know I will get there soon! Finding your way around the architecture of the mouth is starnge cos Im trying to work things out that are back to front, upside down and the wrong way round...a sense of confusion is prevailing until the big breakthrough....then Im sure it will be...."oh thats it!"
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Just to clarify: The tongue doesn't actually "roll" into stage 2 from the side. It goes in on the side and slides to the center behind the soft palate. A push forward can help once the tip of the tongue has made it behind the edge of the soft palate -- that opens the soft palate trap door (it is usually automatic, but pushing forward with the tongue helps it along). No unusual contortions involved beyond just getting there, which you almost have! [8D]
Don't forget, finger help is perfectly legal, especially in the beginning.
The guru is in you.
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Yogani said: Also, keep in mind that the soft palate is not a rigid boundary. As soon as we are behind it, it folds down and forward like a natural trap door.
Another tip with this: breathing in helps open up the tunnel so that it's easier to get your tongue further in there, when going into stage 2. Hope this helps...
-Scott
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Thanks Scott. Im not there yet but agonisingly close. Its just practise every day that will get me there I think.
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Hi SparkyfoxMD,
Im not there yet but agonisingly close
I know the feeling..
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I wonder if anyone can help. I am in the process of stretching the tongue by pulling it and it is working gradually, but I am taking my time. I think it will take a while before I get to stage 2.
When I curl the tongue back, and back from a side entry, and then push with the fingers, I seem to have a real problem with gagging. Does anyone know, or can anyone suggest a way of overcoming this? Would appreciate your help, esteemed learned AYP'ers!
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Dear SparkyfoxMD,
That is just part of the process, and for me I went through a stage of using my fingers and gagging (which wasn't very nice) before it happened that one day it just slipped into the cavity..... At times I had doubts I would ever reach stage 2, and then I tried to let go of the grasping for a result, and thought to myself I will keep going no matter whether I do or not. I let go and prayed for guidance. Just keep perservering and it will happen when the time is right.
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Dear Vicki
Thanks, thats very reassuring and very good advice. I will persevere...not that I ever thought of giving up, the prize is too great for that.
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Meg,
Make a separate topic of this.
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I moved my topic to 'kechari problems', as it's urgent and likely to be missed here. Thanks, Shanti.
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Thanks to this wonderful thread I have finally achieved stage 2 kechari. Thanks Victor, David, Meg and others for your encouraging posts (and obviously Yogani[^]). I was going too far back for the longest time.
Yogani said "The journey from stage 1 to stage 2 kechari (going behind the soft palate) is actually a thrust forward with the tongue as soon as it clears the back edge. Not up, but forward. The easiest place to do that from (shortest distance to get behind) is on the left or right side of the edge of the soft palate. The tongue can roll right in from either side, while going up the middle takes more length.
Also, keep in mind that the soft palate is not a rigid boundary. As soon as we are behind it, it folds down and forward like a natural trap door."
This comment made me change my approach which allowed me to enter into stage 2. Now it makes perfect sense.(Thanks Yogani!)
I would also like to mention to others that the stretching really did help alot.
With Peace,
Paul
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That's really great news, Paul. :) Happy exploring!
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Thanks Paul,
quote:
I was going too far back for the longest time.
Yogani said "The journey from stage 1 to stage 2 kechari (going behind the soft palate) is actually a thrust forward with the tongue as soon as it clears the back edge. Not up, but forward. The easiest place to do that from (shortest distance to get behind) is on the left or right side of the edge of the soft palate. The tongue can roll right in from either side, while going up the middle takes more length.
Also, keep in mind that the soft palate is not a rigid boundary. As soon as we are behind it, it folds down and forward like a natural trap door."
After you pointed out that you were going far too back.. I changed my approach.. re-read Yogani's suggestion above.. that really did help.. I have found the nasal passage too..
Cannnot enter it yet.. my tongue does not fit into my nasal passage [:(].. but now I know where it is..
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Shanti,
If you have found the nasal passage then you should enter pretty quickly. Last Monday I found it and could barely enter using my finger. By Tuesday, I could hold my tongue in for a couple of seconds. By Friday, I was in completly. Saturday I was able to hold it in stage 2 for about 5 minutes. What a sense of accomplishment!
Keep us posted on your progress.
With Peace,
Paul
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Wow you lot! Im gonna try and catch up!
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I know most of you in this thread are light years ahead of me with kechari, but anyhow...I have finally worked up the courage to snip - and though I was a bit queasy, I survived it!
It's amazing how even just a little snip can let you go so much farther.
Also, here are some interesting X-Rayys of the tongue placement before and after kechari
http://www.siddhasiddhanta.com/khechari.html
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seen this one?
http://gprime.net/video.php/tongueswallowing
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Ya, that video is pretty amazing - he does it so effortlessly.
Well, I have lost my second virginity 2 days ago! Last night I went into stage 2 for the second time and was amazed a how much furhter up my tongue went. I also gargled and rinsed my mouth with some sesame oil - maybe the extra lubrification helped it ease its way further up more easily. I honestly never though I would reach stage 2 in this lifetime and am surprised how little time it actually took. All it takes is a little perseverence.
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Hi All:
Congratulations ycloutier, and to all who have entered kechari stage 2 lately!
The "tongue swallowing" video was actually first posted by Rabar in this very topic way back on August 10, 2005. Here are a few comments on it that I offered then:
--------------------
Hello Rabar:
Thank you for that.
However, it is not swallowing the tongue. It is going up to kechari stage 2 (and possibly 3). You can tell because the soft palate on top is being pushed forward from behind. If the tongue were going down the gullet, the soft palate would not be pushed forward because there would be nothing behind it. Of course, one can call kechari stages 2-4 "swallowing the tongue" and most would not know the difference. "Swallowing," most people can understand. But up into the center of the head via the nasal pharynx? Few can imagine that, even though it is much easier to do than swallowing of the tongue.
Perhaps this young man has a future in yoga. He has a gift. The question is, will he have the bhakti to go with it? (and take on the additional practices that are necessary -- deep meditation, spinal breathing, etc.)
It is an excellent video of entering stage 2. Thank you!
The guru is in you.
PS -- See these cross-sectional sketches for perspective http://www.aypsite.com/plus/kechari_image1.html
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Yogani, I may have gotten ahead of myself (though what I am achieveing is still relatively groundbreaking for me). I am going in seemingly only through one side(the left side) - the tongue doesn't go completely back behind the dangly thing - perhaps because my tongue still needs some length to get to that point. So then behind the "hymen", it isn't two orifices that can be either entered from left or right, but one single orifice? So presumably if I were to try to swing my tongue over to the other side, it should just slide over?
-
quote:
Originally posted by ycloutier2000
...but one single orifice? So presumably if I were to try to swing my tongue over to the other side, it should just slide over?
Hi Y:
Yes, that's right. However, once behind the soft palate on the side, or anywhere, pushing forward with the tongue will open the soft palate and automatically bring the tongue to the center. So it is not mainly a sideways movement of the tongue, but a forward one that does the deed. Then keep going forward and you will reach the septum (secret spot) and nasal passages which sit right on top of the back edge of the hard palate.
The guru is in you.
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Thanks Yogani..That clears things up. I can't wait to try it!
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Thanks...the oil trick sounds like a good one. Im off to try it!
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Sparky,
Yesterday I went one step further and dropped some sesame oil in my nostrils and let it trickle down through the nasal passage and down to where the tongue comes up from. This provided nice lubrication throughout. It also takes care of the "fickle pharynx" yogani had mentionned.
CAUTION: Slippery when wet:)
Yogani, thanks again for your clarification - I did thrust a bit more forward and the tongue went in straight up behind the dangly thing.
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How do we know for sure once we have teached the upper limit of the septum? I am able to run my tongue up along the edge of the septum(?) until is seems like it has reached what seems like a corner, where the septum connects with a 'ceiling'. Is this possibly stage 3? I just can't believe how far the tongue has travelled in just a few days since first getting into stage 2.
I stayed in there for a while yesterday, and afterwards....woa. Talk about blissed out. I have never tried heroin, but it felt like how it looks it feels when someone does it in the movies.
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I know the feeling! For your sake, I suggest you don't overdose.
-Scott
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What do you mean Scott - have you had a negative experience?
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Well, I don't like being all "up in the clouds". I was on a family vacation and was in kechari stage 2 for a whole evening, feeling all blissed out. Of course being blissed out changes your personality, at least temporarily, so my family didn't understand what my problem was. I was with people who hadn't seen me for years, and they didn't get why I wouldn't talk and why my eyes were all small (like someone laughing with their eyes) and why I kept smiling about nothing. They wonder what you're thinking about...and become worried.
It was like being stoned without having the joy of being stoned...just kind of freaky. I wanted to seem more down to earth, but was unable to.
Of course this seems like not so negative an experience, but I think this is precisely the thing which should cause someone to self pace. It's something that messes with your life, instead of enriching it. Sure, I was all peaceful, but it wasn't good to be THAT peaceful. It actually made things worse for the time being.
I also spent most of the next day on the toilet, purifying because of the evening before. My stomach became bloated with air, and I had to change my diet for a few days to something lighter so I wouldn't be so Buddha-bellied.
Anyway, being down to earth is good. That's a good way to be enlightened. Divine intoxication is still intoxication, and it's not sanity. Getting caught up in inner ecstacy and experiences of silence...those things are intriguing for a while, but you still have to do things in the world. Chop wood and carry water. Go to school in my case. Talk to friends and family. For some people, go to work. Some people are managers of businesses, and they have to deal with that. Being so blissed out that it's like you're on a drug isn't good for living in the world.
But being blissed out and down to earth is great.
-Scott
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great post, Scott. Thanks.
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You are welcome!
-Scott
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Oh I see what you mean...and I completely agree with you on that point. Like anything else that alters your personality, there's a time and a place. Like you said, I guess this is where self pacing comes in.
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If other people experienced bliss, they would seek you out scott, so that they may contract your potent joy. If they did feel it, smiles would secure them, instead of worry them.
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I don't know... The only thing I do know is that I became more blissful subjectively, and people that have known me for my whole life reacted weirdly to it.
-Scott
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Its great seeing you guys all getting into kechari 2 so quickly.
I am struggling a little...I am pulling the tongue and pushing it back as much as I can....just the hole seems an awful long way back! Am I just being impatient?
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Hi SparkyfoxMD,
I was having the same trouble.. till I read Paul's post..
Paul said: "I was going too far back for the longest time.
Yogani said "The journey from stage 1 to stage 2 kechari (going behind the soft palate) is actually a thrust forward with the tongue as soon as it clears the back edge. Not up, but forward. The easiest place to do that from (shortest distance to get behind) is on the left or right side of the edge of the soft palate. The tongue can roll right in from either side, while going up the middle takes more length.
Also, keep in mind that the soft palate is not a rigid boundary. As soon as we are behind it, it folds down and forward like a natural trap door."
This helped me.. maybe it will help you too.. Remember.. it is NOT WAY BACK THERE... you may be going too far...
-
Thank you Shanti
Wish I could see what was going on in there, would make life easier! God should have designed us with see thru cheek panels!
Thanks
sparky
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Hi Sparky,
Move the tip of your tongue along the roof of your mouth.. Right after you cross the hard palate.. start pushing your tongue around.. there is a very small opening (at least it was for me, and that is why I missed it).. In my case the opening was not like a hole.. it was skin overlapping and had to be pushed open with my tongue.. But remember.. not too far in.. it is just after the hard palalte.. the roof of the mouth sort of dips in.. right about in that area push your tongue around like you are trying to find a slit, not a hole... "The journey from stage 1 to stage 2 kechari (going behind the soft palate) is actually a thrust forward with the tongue as soon as it clears the back edge."
-
Hey Sparky
When you feel the edge of the hard palette on the roof of your mouth that's where your tongue will actually be when in kechari 2, but above the soft palette, becuse the soft palette folds back. You can feel the hard edge where tongue goes vertical is really not that far back
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i wasnt following this thread thinking kechari to be an advanced practice. But shantis explanation in the above post was very clear. The stage1 to stage2 was simple. Thanks shanti for that.
-Near
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Just thought of one more thing that willl help.. while exploring use your fingers to guide your tongue. In my case, my tongue was not strong enough to push through the slit... but with the fingers help it could be pushed in...[:)]
-
quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
my tongue was not strong enough to push through the slit... but with the fingers help it could be pushed in...[:)]
Mine still isn't. I'm not even close to getting it up there without the finger nudge. One previous problem has disappeared almost entirely, tho - I noticed today that hardly any saliva collects under my tongue when I remove it from kechari. It used to be so full that I'd have to swallow every minute or so. Less mucous as well.
Hey - this topic is almost a year old!
-
The saliva has diminished for me as well Meg. It's a good thing!
With Peace,
Paul
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Thanks Shanti and Alan. Im doing what you say. I can get the tongue baqck and feel the dangly thing, and even get slightly behind it, but I cant find that bloody hole! I think I just have to be patient...big problem of mine! I feel I am close, and as Yogani says, self pacing...
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SparkyfoxMD,
Keep pushing your tongue back and up until you hit a hard area, which is behind the dangly thing and above it. You might want to use your fingers. When you hit the hard area, which is like a roof, then you can find the hole because the hard area is the top of the hole. From there you go forward, towards the nose. Then just breathe in and out so that the hole loosens up and push forward with your tongue. When you breathe, this opens up the nasal canal going into your lungs slightly.
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Sparkyfox MD,
I find it useful to push my tongue in with my index finger right where the frenum meets the underside of the tongue. Once you push past the uvula, hold your finger in place and then thrust the tip of the tongue forward towards your nose. Once you are in, you can remove your finger. At least that is how it works for me. The opening may be a little tight at first but it loosens up rather quickly.
Best of luck!
Paul
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Thanks for all the helpful suggestions. I am trying everything and feel I am nearly there, just cant find the bloody opening. Im sure I will get there when my body is ready. Using fingers still makes me gag, but its getting better. I am very excited about the final push and success...
Appreciate everyones help...its nice not being on my own!
sparky
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Hi Friends,
I am going to buy a cuticle snipper from
http://www.folica.com/Mehaz_777___4___d958.html
I am not sure about the best jaw size for our purpose, Should I get the 1/8 jaw, 1/4 jaw or the 1/2 jaw ?
Also found several more at http://www.venusworldwide.com/cuticle_nippers.htm
and
http://www.dealtime.com/xDN-cosmetics--cuticle_nipper~V-rows
just need one !
Thanks,
Mufad.
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Hi Sparky,
"Using fingers still makes me gag,".. sorry to say this, but I think you are going too far back...
-
Ah well,
Guess I will just go with the 1/8" jaw at http://www.folica.com/Mehaz_777___4___d958.html , that should be enough no ?
Mufad.
-
Update,
The folica.com site did not ship to my country, so I purchased this one
http://www.venusworldwide.com/cuticle_nipper_18.htm
Now I am waiting for it to arrive !
God Bless,
Mufad.
-
quote:
Originally posted by mufad
Update,
The folica.com site did not ship to my country, so I purchased this one
http://www.venusworldwide.com/cuticle_nipper_18.htm
Now I am waiting for it to arrive !
God Bless,
Mufad.
Hi Mufad - You have verily purchased the Rolls Royce of cuticle cutters. [:)] It ought bring your tongue into kechari with speed, accuracy, and style. Please post on your progress once you start clipping, and good luck!!
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So far I was practicing kechari outside of practice.. I found it very distracting to do it along with my practice. OK! first, I have to agree with you guys.. staying in kechari over an extended period can play with your head.. never done drugs.. so I will take your words for it that that is how drugs make you feel.. I agree with Scott about "feeling all blissed out".
For the past 3 days, I have been in kechari during spinal breathing, and it does make spinal breathing feel so much stronger and for the lack of a better word... so much closer. Last night and this morning, I stayed in kechari through my entire practice.. last night I was lost during meditation.. this morning I could feel an expansion in my head.. it was lovely. Meditation and shamyama were awesome.. actually very different.. its like I was not there and yet I was there. Chin pump felt different too.. but I badly gagged during Yoni mudra and had to give up kechari.
I love the way the tongue finds its place and settles down.. so comfortably. It's almost like it knows where it has to go.. the tip settles down at one of the nasal passage openings, and the rest of the tongue has a place to rest along a groove... feels like it has it's own bed.. Also, without realizing it.. my tongue seemed to move and block the alternate nostril during spinal breathing.. like I was actually doing alternate nostril breathing along with spinal breathing.. The saliva is decreased a lot. It still hurts and burns like hell the first time I enter.. but then it is fine.
Thank You Yogani for making this available to us... [:)]
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"It's almost like it knows where it has to go"
I definitely experienced the same phenomenon.
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Does anyone know anyone who has achieved stage four?
I suppose being able to get your tongue that far up, and the the body forging the appropriate level of connection/conductivity are one in the same, so has there been anyone who had anything to say about it?
Maybe in a previous thread?
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Dear Friends on this baord
Thanks for all your help. I am progressing slowly but surely.
I have discovered something which is quite interesting.
In my slow progress from stage 1 to stage 2 (not there yet) I have found that as soon asI wake up, first thing in the morning, it is much easier to stretch the tongue and make an attempt at stage 2. I nearly succeeded this morning.
Any idea why this should be? Any thoughts anyone?
sparky
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I suppose there is less tension in your tongue when you wake up or something... but at the same time, I'm surprised and a little at loss to explain, since muscles are usually a little shorter and stretch less when you wake up, aren't they?... so go figure ??
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Hello everyone I'm in the club too now.
Just short of the dangly thing at the moment and struggling to get past gag I seem to get it even without touching the back of the throat. Never mind I'm on a mission now, got to get into stage two something is driving me on [:)]
Richard
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It has been said many times in this thread, if your tongue can reach the uvula with some finger help, you should be able to enter stage too.
Had I known how close the entry way was before, I could've entered stage two a year ago.
Use your finger to push your tongue back so the tip reaches just beyond the uvula. Then let the tip play around behind the uvula. If you can help the tip to feel just behind the uvula, you will easily enter it.
The uvula is like the front of the slip. It is the flap of tissue that keeps the entry way to the cavity closed. Once you enter you will be blown away at how close it was the whole time.
Be well.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyman
Had I known how close the entry way was before, I could've entered stage two a year ago.
I had the same thought, but perhaps I really wasn't ready yet. When you find out how close that you've been for some time you just think "You're kidding me?!"
This site is going to be famous for "Kechari Khurners"[:0]
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim and His Karma
I always touch the roof of my mouth just behind the teeth. I don't get any noticable improvement if I go back to the joining of hard and soft palates, and my jaw gets tired after 5 mins like that. Can't get tongue behind uvula yet.
I'm wondering if it might not be a bad idea to have a dental surgeon do a frenectomy...take a lot of the jitters out of the process....
Try pushing your tongue down and way back
to your throat with a couple fingers [:0], then point your tongue back and up, push up hard. The first time I did it, it felt funky. I've only made it to phase 2.
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FYI, I moved Jim's (flying_fakir's) post here for a better fit:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1534
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyman
Does anyone know anyone who has achieved stage four?
I suppose being able to get your tongue that far up, and the the body forging the appropriate level of connection/conductivity are one in the same, so has there been anyone who had anything to say about it?
Maybe in a previous thread?
Hello,
i am new on this forum ans i warn you all that i don't speak very well english. I'll do what i can and hope you will understand.
I have look the different levels of kechari mudra and i would like to say that there is more levels than just four. I can say that i am on level five (that i call the "cobra tongue"). I did cut twice my "tongue-ligam" with a rasorblade, just the size of a hair. I look your techniques to cut without pain and i thank you to share all these secrets, it's very interesting. Even if i can go very far in the nasopharynx, i am still attracted by cutting more (to actually reverse totally my tongue in the throat and to press on the low rachidian bulb, center of control of breathing).
To go further in the nasopharynx, it is very important to smile inside (to be happy to do it) and to relax well the throat, at the level of the chakra. I don't think that milking can be usefull and cutting is not necessary. My tongue is not longer than anybody else. I like my tongue very much and it helps...
One more little funny technique is to rub your "tongue-lingam" with butter before to slide it in. But the most important is to abandon/surrender yourselve. You can also try to swallow your saliva when your tongue is up and the vacuum that it triggers will pull your tongue further.
Good luck to every body. Hope you can read me easely.
Le Biotechnomoine (the Biotechnomonk)
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Hi Le Biotechnomoine, and welcome!
Stage 5 kechari is discussed in the AYP Easy Lessons book as an addition to lesson 108 (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html). That is "down the gullet," as per the Hatha Yoga Pradipika. It is one of the more challenging techniques. Its effects can also be achieved by other means -- earlier stages of kechari (with base of tongue pressing down), chin pump, sat karmani (swallowing and withdrawing a long thin cloth), and the use of other prosthetics. In the end, kechari stages 2 & 3 and chin pump will be likely enough to cover all sins in the deep throat. Of course, we will be inclined to go where our bhakti calls us, tempering with common sense for safety.
Thanks much for sharing, and all the best on your path. Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
"down the gullet,"
Hi Yogani
Do you mean the tongue goes backward in the mouth and not in the nose?
If yes, do you think it is possible without cutting the frenum?
(i'm sorry to not be able to buy your book, the biotechnomonk is very poor, for now only i hope)
Read you soon
Thanks for your wishes and good words
The Biotechnomonk
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Hi Biotechnomonk:
Yes, stage 5 kechari is tongue folded back and down. Stages 2-4 are up behind the soft palate. Stage 1 is tongue on roof of mouth with tip at the point where hard and soft palates meet. To do stage 5, the frenum must be all but gone -- either born without it, or removed. It is discussed and illustrated in the AYP Easy Lessons book -- the ebook version is pretty inexpensive.
But not to worry about it too much. Kechari stage 5 is not a primary prerequisite for spiritual progress. In fact, neither are kechari stages 2-4. Far more important are daily deep meditation, spinal breathing pranayama and a balance of other practices that anyone can take on step-by-step, with prudent self-pacing.
The journey cannot be made with kechari alone, or, for that matter, with any one practice, except deep meditation. Cultivating inner silence daily over the long term is the key to all spiritual progress -- that is done primarily through deep meditation.
The guru is in you.
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi Biotechnomonk:
Yes, stage 5 kechari is tongue folded back and down, and stages 1-4 are up behind the soft palate. To do stage 5, the frenum must be all but gone -- either born without it, or removed. It is discussed and illustrated in the AYP Easy Lessons book -- the ebook version is pretty inexpensive.
But not to worry about it. Kechari stage 5 is not a primary prerequisite for spiritual progress. In fact, neither are kechari stages 2-4. Far more important are daily deep meditation, spinal breathing pranayama and a balance of other practices that anyone can take on step-by-step, with prudent self-pacing.
The journey cannot be made with kechari alone, or, for that matter, with any one practice, except deep meditation. Cultivating inner silence daily over the long term is the key to all spiritual progress -- that is done primarily through deep meditation.
The guru is in you.
Good,
I completely agree. I practice daily meditation (zazen) since I'm 16 (i'm 31) and i'm buddhist monk since 10 years, i met my master when i was very young. No problem with that, really.
Did you know that frogs practice khechari mudra during wintersleep?
I discovered khechari mudra five years ago. Nobody teached it to me (it came like this during meditation) so i'm surprised to see that so many people are interested to it (it is not the use in zen to practice that). I crossed really a lot of phenomenons with this, which gave a real new dimension to my zazen and to my entire life. I am amazingly happy of it. I deeply give thanks for that...
If i have well understood, "bhakti" (?) is calling me to level 5 and my intuition was right about the position of the tongue (yepee). I have to say that i am looking further for it. Thanks you very much Yogani.
Gassho
The Biotechnomonk
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I wondered that about those frogs, and other animals as well.
Go life.
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hi, everyone
on Oprah Winfrey show today she had Dr.Oz on, he said to help relieve a brain-freeze (like when you eat ice cream to fast) you could put your tounge on the roof of your mouth, then he said it was a meditation technique.
the world is changing is it not!
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Nice, I'm loooovin it.
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People should research how the pineal gland forms in babies. The epithelial tissue of the roof of the mouth goes up and creates the anterior portion of the gland.
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Hi Scott,
I think you meant pituitary gland, just for the sake of accuracy. Here is a description of its development from healthline.com:
"The pituitary gland is formed during early fetal development. An understanding of its formation explains its position in the endocrine system as well as its neurological importance. Early in the development of the fetus, a small sac of cells forms at the top of the oral cavity and moves upward. These cells are known as Rathke's pouch. At the same time, a small fold of neural tissue extends downward from the hypothalamus. During fetal development, the two structures continue to move toward each other; they meet and fuse to form the anterior (originally Rathke's pouch) and posterior (from the hypothalamus) lobes of the pituitary."
http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/pituitary-gland
The pituitary sits in the sphenoid bone directly above the little indentation that is just back of the septum on the roof of the secret chamber. In Kriya Yoga performance of kechari, this is where you place the tip of the tongue according to their website. In ayp, this is stage 3 kechari. http://www.aypsite.com/plus/205.html Probably review for anyone reading this.
It is interesting in that respect because the Taoists talk about completing the microcosmic orbit by performing stage one and the Kriya yogis say they are completing a circuit when they touch the tongue to the indentation, altho it is not clear which, to me(the front channel?), and Yogani talks about closing a switch with stage 2, if I understand correctly. Do you know if all 3 of the circuits are the same one? Your post is interesting because there seems to be a physical body anatomical correlate for a subtle energy circuit.
Best, yb.
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I didn't read the whole discussion, but... Yesterday I talked to a yogi and asked him if he had clipped his frenum and he looked at me like I was crazy :) I looked at his tongue and he didn't have the frenum. He said he used to have it, though. So I'd say it's possible to learn kechari mudra without clipping, with the frenum gradually stretching so that it eventually almost disappears.
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Tadeas,
it may or may not be possible. In my case i needed no clipping and now do kechari effortlessly. I was one of the lucky ones. There are a number of others here who are clipping and clipping and making fairly slow progress and certainly most yogis don't even try kechari at all so that is no way of knowing. It is a matter of genetics or luck or karma or whatever you believe but its simply different for everyone. I would certainly recomend trying without clipping and if the going is slow then clipping is an option depending on how important your desire for it is.
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Victor, are you able to touch the top of the inner passages without clipping your tongue?
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yes, I can but I can't enter the passages very far with my tongue but that has more to do with tongue thickness than length
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Hello,
does somebody have a hint to achieve stage 5?
Biotechnomonk
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Hi Le Bio:
Stage 5 kechari (tongue down the gullet) is achieved by eliminating nearly all of the frenum, and with a lot of finger help folding the tongue back and down. This is going far beyond what is necessary even for kechari stage 4 (up the inner nostrils to the brow area).
Stage 5 was included in the AYP Easy Lessons book (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/books.html#ayp1) to provide parity more or less with the Hatha Yoga Pradipika. But, as with some other extreme practices described in the HYP (such as mechanical vajroli), its practicality is questionable. This is why stage 5 is absent from the Asanas, Mudras and Bandhas book (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/books.html#amb), which presents a more targeted and efficient approach to the practices.
We should ask ourselves what kechari stage 5 is doing, and see what easier alternatives may exist for producing the same effects. Perhaps we are doing them already. [:)]
Kechari stage 5 is for stimulating the neurobiology in the throat, particularly the higher functioning of the gag reflex, which happily does not involve gagging all the time. This higher function opens the throat, heart and navel areas, and has a significant impact on higher "radiant" digestion occurring in the GI tract, but only if ecstatic conductivity has arisen.
So, there are a few clues. The essential one being that ecstatic conductivity is fundamental to the process, which is cultivated through deep meditation and spinal breathing pranayama. To charge ahead with physical practices (especially extreme ones) before there is a neurobiological basis could be called "premature."
Meanwhile, there are other ways to stimulate the same effects as kechari stage 5. One of the easiest is chin pump (dynamic jalandhara) done concurrently with whatever kechari stage we may be doing. This has a significant impact in the throat area and below, as anyone experienced with chin pump knows.
On the shatkarma side, the more severe forms of dhauti (GI tract cleansing) also have an impact in the throat area. These include ingesting water and deliberately vomiting it out, and swallowing a long narrow cloth and pulling it out. Both of these go after the gag reflex directly. And neither of these are recommended as AYP practices. The form of dhauti in the Diet, Shatkarmas and Amaroli book (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/books.html#dsa) is less extreme, and more global in its effects.
There is also an interesting recent post by Avatar that has some bearing on this subject (thanks Avatar!):
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=2960
So, there are several ways to skin the cat. The question is, what will be the easiest and yield the best results over time? ... in other words, optimizing cause and effect in our daily practices as much as possible, which is the primary aim around here.
There will be very few who will go for kechari stage 5, and that is okay. Those who do pursue kechari stage 5, or any other extreme practice, should make sure it is not at the expense of maintaining a balanced integrated approach to yoga practices over the long term, which is where the best results will be found.
It is always good to balance our bhakti (spiritual desire) with good common sense. [8D]
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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All of this discussion about frenulum snipping and tongue lengthening doesn't make any sense to me. When a person places the tongue on the roof of the mouth they create tension in the back of their neck. If I can create tension in that region by simply keeping my tongue on the soft palate why go to the ridiculous lengths of placing my tongue in the nasal septum or down my gullet? Its tension and concentration that draws awareness inward towards the spine and away from the senses. Anyone who practices kechari can test this idea. First meditate without lifting the tongue but focus the attention on the back of the neck using slight tension (the same amount provided by kechari mudra). Later on lift the tongue into kechari and compare. If the results are the same why swallow the tongue or pull it up to your forehead?
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well, I would not say that the tension is the goal here. It is just more scenery along the way that should pass in time.That is like saying that the goal of a yoga stretch is to create discomfort in the muscles being stretched. Also I would not say that kechari is going to ridiculous lengths. No one is teaching to bring the tongue up to the forehead here and if you actually experience kechari you will find that the tongue is actually lengthened very little but just freed from the restriction that keeps it from passing the uvula. After that the actual stretching is really quite small if you would measure it. It does however have a unique effect on the breath and energy in the spinal channel that is hard to describe but definitely present. The tension that you speak of is really a preliminary stage and more of a distraction or a restriction to get through than a goal.
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The slightest perceptible tension will do the trick, no need for discomfort. It is a pleasurable sensation when done properly. No need for kechari mudra for that matter, if it causes discomfort. Kechari creates tension in the back of the neck, its the whole point of performing any mudra. Mudras lock energy in the spine through tension. The unique effects of kechari mudra are readily explainable if one understands the overall function of a mudra. If I create tension in my toes by curling them slightly my awareness goes to my toes. Any body part I create tension in will draw my awareness towards that part. Mudras localize awareness in the spine through tension. The more awareness is localized in the spine and brain the greater one's capacity to draw awareness away from the body, inward and upward. Kechari has really nothing to do with the tongue unless anyone here believes that it was developed as a tongue exercise rather than a brain and spine exercise. The tongue by itself does nothing to localize awareness in the spine or brain. Lifting the tongue creates tension and positioning the tongue behind the uvula is convienient place for the tongue to rest, but if the tongue is too short for that I wouldn't worry about it. There are other ways to localize tension near the medulla.
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Perhaps this link might help [:)]
What is Kechari Mudra? (http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=2170)
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To say the nasal septum has something to do with advanced pranayama practice is strange to me, since the septum isn't a part of spine-brain axis. Pressing the chin to the chest is another mudra, can I therefore say that the chin and chest are spiritually erogenous? Is the perineum itself important during asvini mudra or is it the tension created in the lower regions of the spine by applying tension in that area? Regardless of where a person places their tongue, if there is no tension in the back of the head or spine a mudra isn't being performed. Its apparent that kechari mudra does create tension in the back of the head. No one will dispute that. Kechari facilitates that tension but if a person's tongue is too short to reach up into the septum why waste energy stretching it or having the frenulum snipped? In fact one would be advised against snipping and stretching the tongue since it attracts undue attention towards bodyparts that have very little, if anything at all, to do with pranayama. What do the tongue and septum have to do with awareness? Not much. Kechari is an advanced mudra not so much because it is difficult, but because it has the ability to localize awareness in a part of the brain/spine that is responsible for breath and heart rate regulation.
If a person wanted they could keep the tongue lowered but imitate the same slight tension created by kechari by lowering the jaw a bit and compare the effects, just to test this idea.
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Joshua,
Interesting insight. However, I do think that the effects differ between actually doing kechari, and mimicking the tension. You could try it out for yourself...test your method for some time, and then get on to practicing actual kechari.
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I have tested the difference and there is no difference. A mudra is tension and has nothing to do with the tongue or septum. The more one thinks about how awareness manifests in the body the less sense it makes to think there is a special circuit between the tongue and septum. After coming across this site I started cutting the frenulum (my tongue easily enters the septum, but I wanted a little bit more of a reach). Once I understood the function of a mudra I became much less interested in tongue position and much more interested in locking awareness in the spine. I like this site, it brings up really cool stuff like spontaneous body movements and self inquiry and mudras, I hope I can keep people thinking about their practice.
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I've experimented with both, also. And I rely mainly on stage 2 in my daily practices. I spent many hours in deep meditation establishing kechari, so stage 4 is easily accessible. Even though 2 works most of the time, occasionally I will have an extremely intense kechari experience. The tongue burrows upwards with tremendous force and locks into a cozy little spot. When I try to do chin pump and kechari stage 2 it feels awkward, but during these more overwhelming experiences, I am pulled into stage 4 and the chin pump flows naturally. The tongue and the brain feel merged together as one and all I experience are powerful waves, powerful enough to move every part of my anatomy if I allow it. It is a distinct experience, compared to my conscious application of the seal. A genuine movement, instead of a mere scaffolding through which to coax the energy upward.
People have experienced stage 4 kechari (I don't know about 5, but that would be pretty wild) without ever studying it, so it seems to be a naturally occurring energy movement. We should probably ask our biology, in the context of self inquiry, as to why this kechari movement even occurs and whether or not we should pursue it. A while after practicing stage 4 I lost all urge to pursue, and never gave it much though after. Since then I have a very dynamic and effective stage 2, and occasionally rise to stage 4 if I either get an intuition to go up or the energy takes me up.
As for how necessary it is, that will be up to the individual's own measurements. Having experimented at least one year or more with both stages (more of stage 2 if you count how long it took to establish stage 4), I am glad that I have established myself in the higher stages. And I am open to allowing my body to do whatever it does, withing the parameters of my self-pace.
I have never tried snipping. My frenum has worn thin, and the stage 2 practice now causes tares here and there. Occasionally I'll find a bit of blood in my mouth or I'll feel soreness later on and discover a decent size tare.
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Joshua,
Store bought orange juice is a pale comparison to freshly squeezed. I personally found that a lot of the mudra took place in the nasopharynx. You're right about the tension in the neck, but I do think there's more to it than that.
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I've also noticed that during spontaneous kechari the jaw opens a bit and the neck tenses. The tongue tends to naturally roll back and point up towards the nasopharynx. I don't think this is the body's attempt to complete a hypothetical circuit between the nasopharynx and the tongue, instead I submit that creating a mudra (tension) in the neck causes the tongue to roll back because of its position in the throat. Its similar to how the ring finger lowers when one attempts to lower one's middle finger into the palm. Pull back on the neck to create tension and the tongue follows.
I think its importatant to remember that when adepts wrote about the flow of energy in the human body they restricted themselves to the nervous system and didn't create a separate energy system for the human body to explain the effects of meditation. To say there is a path for nerve impulses between the tongue and nasopharynx is pure imagination.
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I agree, how we characterize an event can effect our understanding of the overall process.
What happens to the fingers when they press together automatically? Is there a natural flow or path for the energy from finger to finger, or is this similar to what you are saying about kechari?
When I began to experience kechari it was not through tension my neck or the back of my head (which would happen naturally in meditation prior to attempting kechari). It began for me by observing the tip of my tongue exactly where it made contact to the roof of my mouth. It didn't take long before the tip of the tongue stuck the roof of the mouth and began to trace a nerve upwards. When this pull became stronger it invaded the base of my tongue and began lifting it up from the frenum.
Are you saying that a natural path doesn't exist, but we can improvise with our physiology, and it would be a mistake to think of it as other than improvisation?
Joshua, thanks much for your insights and for humoring my questions.
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Hi Joshua:
In the AYP lessons, the presumption is not that neural energy passes between the tongue and tissues of the palate and/or nasal pharynx and septum, though that is put forth by other teachings elsewhere, and some here may believe that, and are free to.
What the AYP writings do describe in both the main and tantra lessons is an ero-ecstatic sensitivity in the septum at a certain point on the vertical back edge especially, which we call the "secret spot," and throughout the tissues of the soft palate, pharynx and the inner nasal passages to varying degrees. The secret spot is accessible for stimulation by the tongue indirectly in kechari mudra stage 1 through the roof of the mouth where the hard and soft palates meet (right under the septum edge), and directly in stages 2, 3 or 4 inside the nasal pharynx. The secret spot in particular has a direct tie-in with sambhavi mudra (third eye stimulation) and the spinal nerve, connecting directly and immediately with the root in the area of the perineum via ecstatic sensations.
Yes, part of this originates near the base of the tongue also (an aspect of kechari), but not all of it. And, yes, a faint impulse of any mudra or bandha can stimulate energy also, particularly in later stages of development. In AYP, we call this the refinement of mudras and bandhas to the "micro-movement" stage. When they all work together in self-coordinated micro mode, we call it the "whole body mudra."
With the root-to-head connection, every nerve in the body becomes activated ecstatically. So while this phenomenon is centered in the spinal nerve and brain, it illuminates every cell in the body, and beyond. This process is progressive and becomes more expansive over time of daily practices. In time, the ecstatic illumination, which is the unfoldment of "inner space," blends with inner silence cultivated in deep meditation, and the whole process moves on to become an endless outpouring of divine love, which will be quite visible in one's daily relations and actions.
The degree to which one experiences these sensitivities, including the direct ecstatic connection and energetic expansion through the spinal nerve, is a function of the degree to which ecstatic conductivity (also called kundalini) has been awakened. It takes some time to reach the stage of directly perceiving it body-wide, and this is dependent on one's daily practices, especially deep meditation and spinal breathing pranayama, which form the foundation for effective practice of mudras, bandhas and additional methods. Once ecstatic conductivity has begun, there is no mistaking it, and it progresses according to the regularity of our practices and ongoing inner purification.
Our perception of sensations and energies at any point in time is going to be a limited snapshot compared to what it will be in the future as we continue with our practices. Therefore, we can't really form any binding conclusions based on our experiences today -- only tentative conclusions are possible, for tomorrow is another day bringing new openings. If we are doing higher stages of kechari and not experiencing an ecstatic connection, that doesn't mean kechari does not work in those higher stages. It just means we may be a bit premature in our level of practice. It is okay. Not a big deal. The nervous system will catch up in time. We just have to keep going with a balanced routine of effective practices and find out for ourselves.
Everyone is looking at something different on their journey, depending on where they are in their process of purification and opening. There are signature experiences that are repeatable and have been discussed in the lessons, and extensively here in the forums, but not everyone will be having these at the same time, or in exactly the same way. No one is asked to believe anything except through their own experience. By the same token, no one's view of what is happening or not happening necessarily decides what will happen or not happen for others.
The yoga scriptures provide some guidelines on what to expect, and this is helpful for motivation and possible confirmation. However, we are engaged real-time in powerful practices here, and experience is the final arbiter of the effectiveness of the practices and their predicted results. We make adjustments accordingly. In AYP this is called "self-pacing" in practices, which is how we build and sustain a stable and effective daily practice routine for the long term. So far in using this approach, we have made quite a few remarkable discoveries about ourselves, and have much more to learn as we continue forward.
The feeling is that daily practice and open sharing on the results over time is a good way to find out what human spiritual transformation is really all about. For that, the lessons and these open discussions can be pretty useful, particularly for independent practitioners. Many thanks for sharing your perspectives. Please continue to do so as you move along.
All the best on your path. Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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"What happens to the fingers when they press together automatically? Is there a natural flow or path for the energy from finger to finger, or is this similar to what you are saying about kechari?"
Nervous energy, a yogi's primary concern, follows the circuits of the human nervous system. A moving electrical charge creates a magnetic field. A person can increase the magnetization of the fingers and hands through tension or directed awareness, but to say one finger needs to touch another finger to complete a circuit is absurd. We can create a magnet of awareness anywhere in the body but it isn't by completing circuits that don't exist its by directing nerve impulses through the conduits we were born with.
When the fingers press together automatically they tend to flex quite strongly for a while and relax. They assume a variety of positions depending on the types of muscles tensed. A person feels like a puppet as the energies of the body do as they will. Maybe circuits feel like they are being completed when in fact more nerve impulses are simply coursing through circuits that are already present.
"Are you saying that a natural path doesn't exist, but we can improvise with our physiology, and it would be a mistake to think of it as other than improvisation?"
What natural path? There are no nerve fibers connecting the tip of the tongue to the mouth, septum, or any other part. Placing the tongue on the roof of the mouth does nothing more than direct more attention to the area above the tongue and septum called the brain. A person can have no tongue and direct energy there. If you can, press your tongue very strongly against the hard palate or beyond (if you can) and focus your energy at that point. Now lower the tongue but maintain your focus at the point where tongue was pressing. In my own experience the pull of awareness towards that point remains regardless of tongue position. Later on you can experiment with tensing the back of the neck slightly to explore the effects. There are a variety of ways of directing attention to the brain, kechari mudra is just one.
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"but to say one finger needs to touch another finger to complete a circuit is absurd"
Well, I didn't state that there was. Just asking you what your thoughts are, and for clarification. I've spent hundreds of hours practicing kechari along the septum, behind the uvula, and on the roof of my mouth, and have experienced all kinds of behavior. Still, I don't think I have a proper grasp on it. In the beginning I locked into certain characterizations which I have since let go of, and will likely have to let go of more.
Our nervous system communicates impulses, that is what I meant about pathway. I'm not trying to use semantics to explain anything, just hopefully learn something new about this intriguing subject.
I agree with you about the effect of tension alone, or without a certain position of the tongue. It's the same reason why I haven't used the higher positions of the tongue for a while. But the tongue is occasionally drawn up there, and most likely I will make that area my permanent residence. Just waiting for the right time.
It would make sense to conclude that we are only using the circuits that are already present, but because I haven't studied the science behind it enough I cannot be certain for myself. Doesn't make much of a difference anyway as long as you are open to new ideas and further transformation, however they may come.
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Kyman,
I think your approach to this topic is the best. You are combining practice and experimentation with a willingness to explore alternative explanations.
Through long hours of attention (Attention is from the main root tingere, touch or pull, which is from the same origin as tension and tangent) the yogi creates a true magnet in the medulla. This magnet pulls the tongue back and eventually facilitates effortless concentration.
The increased magnetic pull of the spine and brain through directed awareness seems reasonable and doesn't require alternatives to the human nervous system. The almost irresistable pull on the eyes upward during sambhavi mudra is another example of intentional magnetism.
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Why waste your attention when you can simply put the tongue in kechari, and put your attention on something else? Like the mantra we're supposed to be meditating on? Or if we're not in meditation, then the things we need to be accomplishing in our lives?
It unbalances the nervous system to place your attention on one area of the body. Already, this wouldn't have the same effect as actual kechari.
But then we must take into account the highly sensitive nasal cavity, which the tongue is touching. Tension or attention doesn't accomplish what this accomplishes. Now the practice is even more different!
As a side note, don't simplify the profound effects of yoga to the science of the nervous system. Some thing we experience we may not be able to explain, and if we try with inadequate information, we will fail miserably at understanding what's going on. Perhaps there's more to the nervous system than we currently think we know? As Kyman said, it's good to be open to new ideas.
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"Why waste your attention when you can simply put the tongue in kechari, and put your attention on something else? Like the mantra we're supposed to be meditating on? Or if we're not in meditation, then the things we need to be accomplishing in our lives?"
This depends on how you define wasteful attention. For the individual whose goal is self-knowledge, fixing the attention externally is a waste since it draws energy away from the spine/brain axis, the seat of self-knowledge. Focus, whether it be on an accomplishment or the inner sounds of the spine, is pranayama. Many varieties of pranayama operate under the heading of meditation, but all are concerned, often unknowingly, with directing energy. Meditation is pranayama. A yogi examines her pranayama practice according to its ability to direct energy inward. A mantra, like prayer, is a weak form of pranayama. Certain forms of "spinal breathing" are better. Self-inquiry is pranayama too. Samadhi is the best.
Thinking about future accomplishments has its place, but during one's practice it is self-defeating. It draws attention away from cerebro-spinal axis and confirms the individuated self rather than the infinite one that is already replete with accomplishments.
"It unbalances the nervous system to place your attention on one area of the body. Already, this wouldn't have the same effect as actual kechari."
Samadhi has been described as "one-pointedness of mind". One pointed attention on the ajna chakra for hours is just a way to create the magnetism in the brain responsible for the attraction between tongue and uvula or nasal septum. I think instances of "unbalance" are actually issues with the enormous amounts of energy liberated by pranayama practice.
"But then we must take into account the highly sensitive nasal cavity, which the tongue is touching. Tension or attention doesn't accomplish what this accomplishes. Now the practice is even more different!"
What does the sensitivy of the nasal cavity have do with pranayama or meditation? Sensitivity to tactile stimulation doesn't mean what you think it does.
"As a side note, don't simplify the profound effects of yoga to the science of the nervous system. Some thing we experience we may not be able to explain, and if we try with inadequate information, we will fail miserably at understanding what's going on. Perhaps there's more to the nervous system than we currently think we know?"
I'm not reaching for an oversimplification. What I am saying is our explanations ought not to contradict what we already know about the human body. Yoga science is mind-boggling. The tendency to mythologize its processes isn't suprising since our understanding of electromagnetism and other related concepts aren't exhaustive. In any case the question might be asked, are we simplifying yoga to a physical science or are we limiting our study of the human nervous system?
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Joshua,
quote:
This depends on how you define wasteful attention. For the individual whose goal is self-knowledge, fixing the attention externally is a waste since it draws energy away from the spine/brain axis, the seat of self-knowledge.
For an individual whose goal is self knowledge, fixing the attention on the spine/brain axis is a waste because the attention is not being focused on the Self.
AYP uses the "I am" mantra...so to suggest placing your attention on something else doesn't make much sense here, in the AYP forums.
quote:
Focus, whether it be on an accomplishment or the inner sounds of the spine, is pranayama. Many varieties of pranayama operate under the heading of meditation, but all are concerned, often unknowingly, with directing energy. Meditation is pranayama. A yogi examines her pranayama practice according to its ability to direct energy inward. A mantra, like prayer, is a weak form of pranayama. Certain forms of "spinal breathing" are better. Self-inquiry is pranayama too. Samadhi is the best.
I agree with you 100%!
quote:
Samadhi has been described as "one-pointedness of mind". One pointed attention on the ajna chakra for hours is just a way to create the magnetism in the brain responsible for the attraction between tongue and uvula or nasal septum. I think instances of "unbalance" are actually issues with the enormous amounts of energy liberated by pranayama practice.
There are different types of samadhi. I'm no expert in the classifications, but I do know one thing: I would never call focused attention on any part of the body samadhi. Maybe technically, it is considered a form of samadhi...it's just that I consider samadhi to be when the body and mind drop away. I would call focusing your attention on a part of the body or mind, meditation. That's kind of another topic, though.
There's a difference between overdoing and unbalancing, in my opinion. There are subtle effects to meditating on everything. When your whole mind becomes absorbed in the object of meditation, it changes the way your energy is working. There's a difference between focusing on the third eye, or focusing on the perineum. Vastly different effects come about over time.
In my opinion, it's unbalancing to focus on any body part, or mental object. The only balancing thing for energy is to focus on the Self, and stop focusing on everything else. Then, true samadhi occurs, and as a result, true pranayama happens.
quote:
What does the sensitivy of the nasal cavity have do with pranayama or meditation? Sensitivity to tactile stimulation doesn't mean what you think it does.
We're talking about the nervous system, right? There are nerves in the nasal cavity. When you touch inside of there, it can make the eyes water, bring tons of attention to the area, etc. The effects of the tongue touching the nasal cavity add to the overall effects of the actual kechari mudra.
It's like baking an apple pie - you need to add the apples, otherwise it's just not an apple pie! So with kechari, you need to put the tongue into the nasal cavity and upwards. If you don't, you simply won't get the same effects.
quote:
In any case the question might be asked, are we simplifying yoga to a physical science or are we limiting our study of the human nervous system?
Lets hope we're neither simplifying or limiting ourselves!
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ok, so i know reallly have the desier to do kecheri, i made myself wait a year, haha not really on purpose, but stopped till the desier grew.
I am using a razer blade, single sided to make the cuts. its a very thin blade, will this work?
IM making hairline cuts once per day, as the cut is healed every day, it seems like it maaaay be working, just askin for ah little advice, i dont like cuticle snippers cuase it seems to thick. but! ill let ya know how the razer blade works in ah week, any advice is very much appreciated
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Avatar,
Focus more on reaching with the tongue, rather than simply cutting. I got to stage 3 after a couple months without any cutting whatsoever.
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quote:
Scott wrote:
There are different types of samadhi. I'm no expert in the classifications, but I do know one thing: I would never call focused attention on any part of the body samadhi. Maybe technically, it is considered a form of samadhi...it's just that I consider samadhi to be when the body and mind drop away. I would call focusing your attention on a part of the body or mind, meditation. That's kind of another topic, though.
My understanding of Samadhi at the present time is that when the aspirant achieves the state by one pointedness upon an object, the practitioner actually becomes the object concentrated on. IE, if the object is "God", the person becomes God. The object is experienced as if one were it. So by concentrating on a body part, the heart for example, one achieves a state of merging with the object (yoga) in such a way that it is experienced from the inside out so to speak, as if one were it. This is a type of Samadhi. It is colored by the object of concentration. It could be a mantra. The state of Samadhi is the combination of the final three steps of yoga.
Please correct me if I am wrong about this.
Thanks, yb.
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quote:
Scott wrote:
There are different types of samadhi. I'm no expert in the classifications, but I do know one thing: I would never call focused attention on any part of the body samadhi. Maybe technically, it is considered a form of samadhi...it's just that I consider samadhi to be when the body and mind drop away. I would call focusing your attention on a part of the body or mind, meditation. That's kind of another topic, though.
My understanding of Samadhi at the present time is that when the aspirant achieves the state by one pointedness upon an object, the practitioner actually becomes the object concentrated on. IE, if the object is "God", the person becomes God. The object is experienced as if one were it. So by concentrating on a body part, the heart for example, one achieves a state of merging with the object (yoga) in such a way that it is experienced from the inside out so to speak, as if one were it. This is a type of Samadhi. It is colored by the object of concentration. It could be a mantra. The state of Samadhi is the combination of the final three steps of yoga.
Please correct me if I am wrong about this.
Thanks, yb.
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Yogibear,
I wish I had my favorite translation of the Yoga Sutras with me right now! It's by Alistair Shearer. There's a sanskrit word in the book for one-pointed focus on an object. Basically the difference is that this is a meditative absorption, and samadhi is a liberation from the mind. When the body and mind drop away completely from your attention, it seems huge, and to be honest it's kind of scary at first. It seems like your attention is shoved into the present moment. It's a strange experience, and it changes over time.
You know when you're meditating on something deeply, like the "I am" mantra, and you forget about it for some time then you catch yourself? Well samadhi occurs right before you catch yourself. But this meditative absorption is occurring before you forget about the mantra.
At least this is my experience.
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well i havnt cut much of any of the toung teather yet, and im not able to reach behind the uvula at all.
with cutting, the tendon just ebbs away? as it seems it just heals were i cut, but this may change in time im not sure yet.
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The tongue becomes very strong and muscular over time. It becomes second nature to hold it upwards, like our other practices. The present conductivity will start to open up and flow through the throat region. Natural polarities in the body help to hold the tongue in place and pull it up. You can probably get an inch of growth by practicing this daily. One good thing about this is you get an idea of what your situation is, in regards to your frenum. You'll know with more certainty whether or not snipping well help or not.
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Hi Scott,
Thanks for your reply. I know the term you are referring to as my teacher was always in this state: ekagrata.
I only know about samadhi from the book point of view and have never considered it as a fleeting thing myself but a progression from concentration thru meditation and into this merged state. It is a state of supreme alertness.
This is only from what I have read up to this point. I have only had this concept of it.
quote:
Scott wrote:
Basically the difference is that this is a meditative absorption, and samadhi is a liberation from the mind.
Maybe these lesser states of absorption would be considered lower types of samadhi with liberation being the ultimate one.
I don't know.
I come from the hard style school (to use a martial arts metaphor) of meditation which involves more determination, will and mental effort which builds to a state that becomes effortless in maintaining one-pointedness over time.
I consider schools like TM and AYP and Swami Rama to be more of a soft style, kind of taoist approach, not involving much effort or will but with more emphasis on gentle persuasion, returning to the mantra over and over again, which I like.
It seems like two different approaches.
Thanks again, yb.
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Yogibear,
quote:
Thanks for your reply. I know the term you are referring to as my teacher was always in this state: ekagrata.
You're welcome. If I remember correctly the term was "sampatti"...but I may be way off.
quote:
I only know about samadhi from the book point of view and have never considered it as a fleeting thing myself but a progression from concentration thru meditation and into this merged state. It is a state of supreme alertness.
This is only from what I have read up to this point. I have only had this concept of it.
So you are saying your definition of samadhi is enlightenment?
quote:
Maybe these lesser states of absorption would be considered lower types of samadhi with liberation being the ultimate one.
I don't know.
Maybe. I don't know either.
quote:
I come from the hard style school (to use a martial arts metaphor) of meditation which involves more determination, will and mental effort which builds to a state that becomes effortless in maintaining one-pointedness over time.
I consider schools like TM and AYP and Swami Rama to be more of a soft style, kind of taoist approach, not involving much effort or will but with more emphasis on gentle persuasion, returning to the mantra over and over again, which I like.
It seems like two different approaches.
What type of meditation do or did you use, which is considered hard style? I get what you're saying there, by the way.
Yes they are two very different approaches. I like the gentle persuasion, because the gentle aspect of it is what takes us deeper and further.
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Hi Avatar
quote:
with cutting, the tendon just ebbs away? as it seems it just heals were i cut, but this may change in time im not sure yet.
I think you have to be practicing kechari daily, whilst cutting the frenum. That way it will stretch as it heals. Otherwise it will just heal the same length as before you cut it.
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Hi Scott,
shamAdi ShaTka sampatti (a collective group of six behavior traits)
6. samAdhAna
samAdhAna means single pointed concentration.
I got these definitions from here:
http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/definitions/shamAdi_ShaTka_sampatti.htm
Samadhana is what I was referring to with ekagrata.
I don't really know about sampatti. From this site I am assuming that it is defined as behavior traits.
At present, samadhi without seed is my definition of enlightenment. This is my teacher's definition:
"The peak of all quests, the realm where nothing is desired as all is fulfilled, where no want is known-this is the state of Samadhi. Samadhi is a condition of eternal happiness. To the world, a yogi in Samadhi is like a person who is in a state of deep sleep. But for the yogi, he has gone beyond the state of notrmal consciousness into a state of superconsciousness where he is in eternal union with the Lord. The experience of Samadhi cannot be described in words. It is not this, and it is not that. It is a state of total consciousness expressed by profound silence."
quote:
Scott wrote:
What type of meditation do or did you use, which is considered hard style?
I practice simple concentration on myself in my heart in the morning and ayp in the evening. The effect on me is something like a cup of coffee in the am and a glass of wine in the pm.
I know that you ideally should stick with one but I like them both so much. The heart meditation is according to Haich and Yesudian and I consider it hard style as deliberate fixing and holding the mind on the object of concentration is emphasized.
Best, yb.
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they are the same approch seperate, will and determination is active, the gently coming back is passive. be activly passive, and passivly active.
as for samadhia, theirs a plant i once experimented with alot, it has a reverse tolerance effect, ie the more ya use it the less it takes. heard it was used to train shamans, whitch could be here say, and its legal for they dunno what it does in the body, ie dosnt use any normal drug receptorns. salvia divinourm. puts you very much so in the present moment. very much so, some people merg with in higher states experiance absorbtion in what their looking at, or thought for a short period. but! such plants are only an aid, they say not to have sex for 3 days at least after useing the plant.
ps. im liking the effect and way a razor blade works, very thin, fast healing, yet im gettin space very quickly without the nasty use of cuticle clippers.
once had a website with ahhh, more or less, the sutra steps for dummys, or made easy. concentrate on somthing, a ball, internal or external, mabey go from one to the others, out then in. once you have steady concentration on it, and you can do so for an hour no problem, then make it two object, and so on n so foreth.
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oh yes one more thing, and ive pretty much givin up the use of plants. but pot and salvia together. ie since salvia has a quicker effect, and diminishes qucker when smoked. pot then salvia, smoked in that order, produces a very interesting effect. that was euphoric for a while, but then changed to a super concentrated, but super relaxed state of mind. at the time i though of it like, mm active and passive together. but such things can only but an aid or crutch till better ways are found. whitch they should be
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quote:
Once our bhakti is hurling our tongue back into kechari, breaking the
hymen of the frenum does not have to be stressful and painful. It can
be very easy and gentle. Above all, it can and should be gradual.
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html
Does that apply to having the frenum removed surgically? If so, why?
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quote:
Originally posted by Chiron
quote:
Once our bhakti is hurling our tongue back into kechari, breaking the
hymen of the frenum does not have to be stressful and painful. It can
be very easy and gentle. Above all, it can and should be gradual.
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html
Does that apply to having the frenum removed surgically? If so, why?
Hi Chiron:
Yes, for those who may be inclined that way.
Why? Because how the frenum is attended to is a personal matter driven by bhakti (spiritual desire), and no reasonable safe option should be excluded.
The emphasis on the word "gradual" applies to self-snipping the frenum, taking small safe steps toward release. A surgical approach would obviously be a large step via appropriate medical procedure.
The "hymen" analogy also may point to the rare cases where opening a woman's hymen might need surgical assistance. In either the case of frenum or hymen, the need for surgical assistance may be rare, but the possibility of it exists nevertheless. It is a matter of the individual's anatomy, need (bhakti), and choice.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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quote:
Originally posted by Chiron
quote:
Once our bhakti is hurling our tongue back into kechari, breaking the
hymen of the frenum does not have to be stressful and painful. It can
be very easy and gentle. Above all, it can and should be gradual.
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html
Does that apply to having the frenum removed surgically? If so, why?
Just as a matter of interest, I asked the guy that did my vasectomy if he could cut the frenum. He seemed fine about it and said it would be a 5min job and cost £150. I was wondering at the time if I could get 3 snips for the price of two![:)]
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Hi i have three questions:
1.
In the Hathatatvakaumudi there is a sloka:
There is a trikuta (crown of the head) at the center of the eyebrows above the uvula, resembling the sprout of a gram. One should insert the tongue there with a concentrated mind and drink the flowing ambrosia. Thus one gets a divine body. 14:19
Where this point accurately is and on which step of ketchari this
sprout can be feeled ?
Some useful pictures to mark this point:
http://www.siddhasiddhanta.com/khechari.html
2.
Robert Svoboda mentions about 3
hidden chakras localized in the region of soft palate :
Lalana (talu, uvula chakra, talana, taluka, soma chakra, kala chakra)
Lalata (Fourth eye)
Golata (Guru chakra)
Anyone find any reliable informations in this topic,
with correct localizations of this points ?
I made some research in this theme, but find only some **** ;)
Sivananda wrote about lalana chakra but he described its palates with using
of letters from guru chakra, which is also 12-petaled.
Besides first and third chakra are descibed in the book: Susan G. Shumsky
Awaken Your Untapped Energy, contained also info about others ajna subcenters.
J.S. Harrigan in her book kundalini vidya mention about golhat, the cheek center that gives clairvoyance and the ability to red between the lines. Is golhat = golata ?
Another good source information can be found in the book Sundar Goswami
Layayoga: The Definitive Guide to the Chakras and Kundalini
Others sources ?
3.
What about using khechari mantra from yoga kundalin upanishad
Any success with this ?
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I havn't reached stage 2 of kechari, but with a help of fingers my tongue goes some distance behind soft palate. However if I close my mouth, the tongue immediately drops out of soft palate. How do I avoid this?
-
quote:
Originally posted by Szu
Where this point accurately is and on which step of ketchari this sprout can be feeled ?
Others sources ?
Hi Szu:
The "point" you are referring to is called the "secret spot" in AYP. It is located on the back edge of the nasal septum just above where the hard and soft palates meet. It is accessed by the tongue by going behind the soft palate and pushing forward. The soft palate then opens downward like a trap door. The secret spot is first accessed in stage 2 kechari (tongue reaching the back edge of the septum). The secret spot may or may not be active (spiritually erogenous), depending on previous progress with a range of yoga practices leading to the rise of "ecstatic conductivity" in the neurobiology.
You did not mention the AYP lessons on kechari which are derived from several of the scriptures you metioned, and a lot of practical experience. The lessons can be found listed in the main website topic index. Lesson 108 is the main one, and there are quite a few others.
It has gone much further in these support forums, with many angles on practice and experience having been explored. Try searching the forums for words like "kechari," khechari," "snip," etc. You will find a lot.
Together, the AYP lessons and forums may comprise the most comprehensive open resource on kechari mudra in the world. If your research has turned up new angles, we'd love to have them posted here in the forums. The learning never ends. [:)]
The focus in AYP overall is less on theory and more on methods that produce the best results with steady application over time. So we discuss chakras and other internal machinery less than other approaches. We don't deny the inner mechanics. We just focus more on the main controls of the "car" and leave the inner machinery to do its thing "under the hood." In other words, we don't theorize much about kechari. We just do it as bhakti calls us in relation to the rest of our practices and the rise of ecstatic conductivity.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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quote:
Originally posted by Sagittarius
I havn't reached stage 2 of kechari, but with a help of fingers my tongue goes some distance behind soft palate. However if I close my mouth, the tongue immediately drops out of soft palate. How do I avoid this?
Hi Sagittarius:
Try pushing the tongue forward on top of the soft palate. This will open the soft palate downward. Then you will be in stage 2, and closing the mouth while staying in that mode will be easier. It becomes very easy with some practice.
If it doesn't work, some additional stretching and/or trimming of the frenum under the tongue may be be necessary.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Now with a help of a finger I can make my tongue pass the soft palate and reach some hard tissue (hard palate?). And the tongue doesn't fall out when I close the mouth (had this problem before, and it was solved with more snipping). On which spot should I place the tip of my tongue there? I heard it's possible to reach back tips of nostrils from inside, however I don't yet see where they are.
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Concerning the nostrils from inside - I can cover the right one, but can't do it with the left one. Need more stretched tongue and make some final snips.
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I can touch some holes when I put my tongue into kechari. But I am not sure whether these are nasal passages. Could it be trompas de Eustaquio? I put my tongue to rest between these holes onto some hard tissue (which is a little bit more deep than the holes).
Yogani: Thank you so much for advising cutticle snippers and some guy on the forum who advised to use a magnifying mirror! With a use of these tools I was able to reach current stage within 1 month and 20 days.
What exactly is stage 3?
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Hello kechari crowd,
I've been really fascinated by kechari mudra for several years now. Though my tongue is very long, the frenum prevents me from moving it very far back at all (I am not tongue tied though).
Something made me get out of bed a little while ago and search around here for info about kechari. I just read through this thread, really great info here.
I tried putting my tongue as far back as possible and watched in my body to see what would happen. Right away I noticed a very big effect on my heart chakra which felt really good. My tongue could only reach about as far as the limit of my hard palate.
Well I became inspired to snip my frenum. The other day I came across some cuticle clippers in my bathroom that I didn't even realize I had. Just now I boiled some water and sterilized them then proceeded to size up my frenum and choose the best place to snip. I will tell you, this took more courage than I thought it would. Eventually I got a good snip in and there was only a tiny bit of bleeding which stopped shortly afterwards. It stung for a while but now it feels fine.
I can reach my tongue farther back now, sort of on to the beginning of the soft palate (I think so anyways). The effect is amazing, I feel it mainly in my heart and a bit in my crown. The effect in my heart is really blissful.
I started a thread earlier postulating that kechari mudra could be done mentally with mind yoga exercises. So far my experience with what I think is kechari stage 1 has much different effects than the meditation I described in that thread. It is really wonderful and I really to hope to someday progress to stage 2.
Namaste!
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Hi, [:)]
I just wanted to say that I've joined the frenum snipping society. This is my second snip. The first one was miniscule and I kind of messed it up and ended up with two bite marks. That was four days ago.
Tonight's snip was better, I'd say I snipped about 1/16'th of an inch. Now I have a flap of skin hanging out over the snip. I wonder if I should cut the flap off..?
I've also applied some turmeric to the snip site. It bled for 1/2 a minute but then stopped. It hardly hurts. Actually, this isn't half as bad as digging out ingrown toenails!
[:D]
TI
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Made the first snip last night--I used the Jaws of Life which may have been overkill. :)
Actually, it did take a bit more courage than I had originally anticipated...but the pain did go away fairly quickly.
The interesting thing for me was the instant release in my throat region, like the frenum is part of a blockage. Just thinking about it now brings back a sense of peace mingled with excitement.
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Hi, [:)]
I just wanted to say that I've joined the frenum snipping society. [:D]
TI
God save us all! [:D](giggle)
Welcome!
-
quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Now I have a flap of skin hanging out over the snip. I wonder if I should cut the flap off..?
It will probably dissolve by itself, don’t worry about it. And given your eagerness to push the limits, if by chance you snip into a small vein then keep a clean finger (cleaned with alcohol) ready to press into the cut to stop the drama. Or use something else to apply pressure. It will close in a couple of minutes.
-
quote:
Originally posted by Lookatmynavelnow
God save us all! [:D](giggle)
Welcome!
Just remember, God helps those who help themselves. [:)]
TI
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Hi, [:)]
Tonight I did cut number 4. I guess I cut off a bit bigger than a hair and it bled quite a bit. It didn't hurt, but I must admit that I had kind of a reaction to the bleeding, seeing so much blood or something. (Aren't men wuses?) My crown, down through the arms to my hands and my front channel down to the solar plexus opened up. I could see a whitish texture of light covering or inside those channels and it felt like those parts had become a field of etheric conductivity. The light was larger in the crown and hands and there are channels that look like lines about 1/8 inch from each other running up and down my arms. Interesting experience. After, I went and meditated for 40 minutes. It was very nice as that seems to have really opened up my sinuses. [:D]
TI
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I have an important question for all of you:
Is there tension in your soft palette, when you guys go into kechari or not?
-
There will be some tension at first but it should pass with time
-
A better question, that I should have asked is whether, tension in the soft palette is useful or not when trying to get into kechari?
-
actually think stretching the soft palate is just as important!
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Hi all,
This is Nitika here. I have followed the posts on Khechari Mudra on AYP forum for quite some time and would like to say well done to all of you! on the path of your sadhna :)
There is a question inside me which prompted to send this post and that is regd. the laser surgery for frenulum removal.
I wanted to understand that, does the frenulum removal result in losing some control over the movement of the tongue while performing Khechari?
Would the fingers start playing a major part in pushing the toungue behind the uvula, or does a person have full control over the tongue movement without fingers?
Would really appreciate if you could advice me regarding the same.
Thanking you...
Nitika
-
quote:
Originally posted by Nitika
Hi all,
This is Nitika here. I have followed the posts on Khechari Mudra on AYP forum for quite some time and would like to say well done to all of you! on the path of your sadhna :)
There is a question inside me which prompted to send this post and that is regd. the laser surgery for frenulum removal.
I wanted to understand that, does the frenulum removal result in losing some control over the movement of the tongue while performing Khechari?
Would the fingers start playing a major part in pushing the toungue behind the uvula, or does a person have full control over the tongue movement without fingers?
Would really appreciate if you could advice me regarding the same.
Thanking you...
Nitika
Hi Nitika, and welcome to the forums! [:)]
By whatever means the frenum may be reduced or removed, I am not aware of any cases where this has caused loss of control of the tongue for kechari, or anything else like speech, swallowing, etc. Experience with kechari here goes back back several decades, so this is a long time observation. There are also many in the AYP community who are using kechari mudra who may wish to comment on this.
Finger help may be used to assist with initial entry of the tongue into the nasal pharynx. With practice, finger help may not be necessary later on. See AYP main lesson 108 on this: http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html
...and follow-up lessons linked in the website topic index (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/TopicIndex.html).
There is also a lot of discussion on kechari in these forums, as you know -- many first-hand reports and case histories.
Wishing you all the best on your path. Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Hi all,
I have a question, Does the soft palate have a frenum too? I touch some kind of frenum with my tongue behind the soft palate, but don't know what it is.
Also, at the moment, the tension on the soft palate no longer bothers, but over salivation is really distracting. Will it go away with time?
Do you guys put something on your lap to catch it, or just come out of kechari and swallow it? This last one I find it very annoying since the amounts of saliva are really excessive.
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Don't know what you are referring to with the frenum behind the palate. The dangly thingy does tend to get pushed into the opening behind the palate.
As for the saliva, it does settle down. For me it took a couple of weeks.
Peace,
Paul
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It would be above the soft palate, I mean if you go up pushing your soft palate (downwards/forward)until the tongue can rest on it without coming out by itself I find some kind of frenum up there.
Maybe I am doing it the wrong way. I rest my tongue on the soft palate. I cannot see my tongue but the uvula is visible while in kechari. Should the uvula go up with the tongue? I find that kind of uncomfortable.
-
quote:
Originally posted by RO0o
Hi all,
I have a question, Does the soft palate have a frenum too? I touch some kind of frenum with my tongue behind the soft palate, but don't know what it is.
Also, at the moment, the tension on the soft palate no longer bothers, but over salivation is really distracting. Will it go away with time?
Do you guys put something on your lap to catch it, or just come out of kechari and swallow it? This last one I find it very annoying since the amounts of saliva are really excessive.
Hi RO0o,
I think you are talking about the elastic tendon that Yogani talks about in his lesson Lesson 108 - Kechari mudra – A giant leap for humankind (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html)
Stage 2 is very dramatic. The tongue is pushed back with a finger to the left or right side of the soft palate. These are the shortest pathways leading behind the soft palate. One of these will be shorter than the other. At some point you will experiment and see for yourself. The long way in is up the middle. The soft palate has an elastic tendon running across the back edge. When the tip of the tongue gets behind it for the first time, the elastic tendon can slip quickly around the bottom of the tongue as though grabbing it. Then the tongue is suddenly in the nasal pharynx and touching the edge of the nasal septum for the first time.
Does this sound like what you are experiencing?
Also yes, the excess saliva will go away. In my case, I would keep getting out of kechari and swallow.. but do what seems right to you. This phase wont last too long so don't let it annoy you.
From the same lesson:
When we are up in stage 2 kechari, saliva will accumulate in the mouth down below. Since we can't swallow what is in our mouth with our tongue going up into the nasal pharynx, and we don't want to drool, then we come out of kechari as necessary to swallow the saliva in our mouth. In the early adjustment period to stage 2 kechari there can be a lot of saliva, so we will have to swallow more often. In time, the saliva goes back to normal levels, and coming out of kechari to swallow will become infrequent.
Wish you all the best.[:)]
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quote:
Originally posted by RO0o
It would be above the soft palate, I mean if you go up pushing your soft palate (downwards/forward)until the tongue can rest on it without coming out by itself I find some kind of frenum up there.
Maybe I am doing it the wrong way. I rest my tongue on the soft palate. I cannot see my tongue but the uvula is visible while in kechari. Should the uvula go up with the tongue? I find that kind of uncomfortable.
Orrrr.. it could be you are feeling the nasal septum..
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html
In the beginning of stage 2 kechari we will be curious. We are in a new place and want to find out what is in the pharynx. There is the sensitive septum, the "altar of bliss." We have no problem finding that, and realizing that the best way to do pranayama and meditation is with our tongue resting on the septum. It is like having a powerful siddhasana working simultaneously on the other end of the spinal nerve, awakening our entire nervous system from the top end. When we are not enjoying bliss at the septum, we will no doubt explore, finding the prominent "trumpets" of the eustachian tubes on either side of the nasal passages. We also can't miss the entrances to the nasal passages on either side of the septum, and quickly find the extremely sensitive erectile tissues inside them. Too much. Better stay away from those for a while. So, we go up the septum on our journey to the top of the pharynx, to stage 3. For some this is a short journey. For others, it can take a long time. In going there we expose the full length of the edge of the septum to our tongue, and prepare ourselves to eventually enter the nasal passages and go higher.
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Hi Shanti,
Yup I believe it must be that elastic tendon, I can feel it with the tip of my tongue as I try to go up.
It would be great right now if my car could run on saliva lol.
Well...will be swallowing saliva for the next days. See you later.
Thank you very mucho
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Hello,
I've just discovered Kechari after a few years of pranayama.
Wow.
I'm just able to extend the tip of my tongue into that squishy part right behind the roof of my mouth.
The very first thing I noticed, is that my spine became even straighter, a more perfect posture. This happens every time, even when I think my spine is as straight as can be.
The second thing, as many of you have remarked, is the super-proliferation of saliva. It's pretty funny I think.
This mudra is like shifting into sixth gear. I can't perform it too long, but even a little, I've noticed yields definate results.
Well, I registered to thank you all for sharing the information in this thread, it certainly has inspired me to continue on with this wonderful practice.
Okay, I'll be checking out this forum a bit more. See ya...
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hi moggio and welcome, about the saliva that will become less and you would be able to stay as long as you want during ketchari later on.
good things are happening [:)], carry on.
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Hey Victor, Donny sent me here from E-Sangha cos I made a thread about kechari but there weren't that many people there to talk about it. I have been doing this since I was a little girl and wanted to talk to someone about where to take it once you can reach into the nasal passages and the eyebrow/flower. I do this throughout the day and find that I don't really suffer from illnesses that go around and was wondering if anyone else out there could relate to this and would share their insight?
Thanks a lot
[:p]
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Hi Miranda,
Welcome to the forum. [:)]
I know your post was directed to Victor, so I hope you don't mind me chiming in.
Kechari Mudra is covered in detail by Yogani here:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html
But if you have been practicing since your childhood you will know most of the mechanics of it already. The reason that you don't suffer much from illnesses could be related to this mudra. Kechari as I am sure you know, is a big activator of energy in the body. One of the main reasons we suffer from illnesses is because of poor energy flows and blockages in the subtle nervous system, so when these are cleared out and the energy is flowing well, hey presto... good health.
And that's not the end of the story... we also start to radiate that energy outward to others around us, which helps to improve their health too. Magic isn't it? Here in AYP it is called ecstatic radiance and kechari mudra can play a big part in it.
Christi
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quote:
Originally posted by miranda6540
Hey Victor, Donny sent me here from E-Sangha cos I made a thread about kechari but there weren't that many people there to talk about it. I have been doing this since I was a little girl and wanted to talk to someone about where to take it once you can reach into the nasal passages and the eyebrow/flower. I do this throughout the day and find that I don't really suffer from illnesses that go around and was wondering if anyone else out there could relate to this and would share their insight?
Thanks a lot
[:p]
Hi Miranda,
Welcome to the forum.
From what you have written you seem to be in Stage 4 kechari:
quote:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html
Stage 4 – Entering the nasal passages from inside and moving upward beyond the top of the pharynx toward the point between the eyebrows. It is not as far for the tongue to go as it seems. Put you thumb on the hinge of your jaw and put your index finger at the tip of your tongue extended straight out. Then pivot the fixed length to your index finger up on your thumb to the point between your eyebrows. See? It is not so far for the tongue to go straight up from its root.
Stage 4 is another dramatic step. It could be years away from stage 2&3. Everyone will be different in approaching it. There is a trick to it. The nasal passages are tall and narrow and the tongue is narrow and wide, so the tongue can only go into the nasal passages by turning on its side. But which side? One way works better than the other. The tongue can naturally be turned with the top to the center by following the channel on top of the trumpet of each eustachian tube into its adjacent nasal passage. This naturally turns the top of the tongue to the center and allows it to slide up the side of the septum into the nasal passage. Turning the tongue inward to the center is the way up into the passages. Entering stage 4 is as dramatic as entering stage 2, because the tissues in the nasal passages are extremely sensitive, and connecting with them in the way described takes the nervous system to yet a higher level. Stage 4 provides extensive stimulation of the upper ends of the sushumna, ida, and pingala, and this has huge effects throughout the nervous system, especially when combined with our pranayama and its associated bandhas and mudras.
The next step is stage 5 which is covered in Yogani's book Advanced Yoga Practices - Easy Lessons for Ecstatic Living (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/books.html#ayp1) where in the tongue is moved into the throat toward the heart. This is a very advanced stage and most people may not be inclined to go that far.
Do you practice meditation and/or any other spiritual practices other than kechari? Kechari becomes a very powerful practice when combined with Spinal breathing pranayama (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/41.html) and meditation (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/13.html).
Here are some discussions on Stage 4 kechari.
Kechari Stage 4 + Pranayama (http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1288)
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1288#8974
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=2795#24494
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1766#13877
Hope these help. [:)]
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something i want you guys to try:
go as far up as you can up the nasal septum. as far as you can. try to touch your eyeballs lol
from there move your tongue to the backside of your head.
this is where the pituitary is
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Hi, I'm still trying to get a handle on this after-odor thing that I get after doing Kechari. I know that the lessons and other text talk about a nectar or smell of flowers. If it's flowers, they're dead flowers. It doesn't happen during Kechari - only immediately after it and only for about 30 seconds. Also, it happened in stage 1 and now that I can do stage 2 I get the same after-smell. Could this have something to do with sinus. Anyone else experiencing something like this?
Bob
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Hi Bob,
Yes the smell has to do with sinuses.. I have that happening a lot too. Last summer I went to India and had a real bad sinus infection, and although I don't seem to be congested any more, I get that real bad odor when I do kechari (because it opens up sinus passages) or at times after my sitting practice (purification?). The only thing I know of is doing jala neti (http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=3521). Not sure if anyone else has any other ideas.
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Meat eater's mouth is my guess.
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quote:
Originally posted by Neptune
Meat eater's mouth is my guess.
What's a meat eater's mouth?
It does sound like a sinus inflammation/infection:
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/RespiratoryDisorders/messages/1074.html
I however don't have a post nasal drip. I do get sinus headaches at times and my left ear seems to be blocked at times and the sinus passages behind my head are tender. Like I said, this did start after suffering from a very bad sinus infection last summer.
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I don't think "meat eaters mouth" is the case here. I've been a vegetarian for the last 33 years. Two years of it was raw food and a lot of fasting. Any meat residue should be long gone. And besides, the odor is not really bad. Just different, and not like the nectar of flowers that I read about.
I do agree with Shanti that this may have something to do with the sinuses. Maybe tongue pressure on the roof of the mouth near the soft tissue from either direction up or down (stage 1 or stage 2) stimulates a sinus or something.
Another point of interest. I just hit stage 2 last week after about 1 and 1/2 months of working on it. The big progress came about 2 weeks ago when I was over stretching the tongue by pushing it back with my finger and sticking it out of my mouth as far as it would go every chance I got. I stretched the tendon so much that week that I think I created some micro tears in it. I can feel them when I run my finger down the tendon. This over stretching might be the "natural" equivalent of snipping. Just some food for thought.
I was just curious if anyone else got this. It's kind of interesting.
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Stretching the tongue out of the mouth is partially like talabya kriya, which would obviously pull on the tendum under the tongue.
What is a sinus headache?
There are so many different types of headaches. There are ordinary headaches, migranes, blood pressure headaches, booze headaches (!). I read something earlier today that said that when people fast heart rate drops but blood pressure rises. So that could be another cause of headache.
It sounds to me like the smelling of odors like flower scents is actually a psychic phenomena and has nothing to do with physical physiology. I think that is an important distinction that needs to be made. On the other hand, if scents of flowers are smelt by simply shoving the tongue up the nasal cavity then i would personally conclude that that is a purely physical phenomenon. Forgive me for sounding vulgar here, but i'm sure i read somewhere that putting the tongue in kechari is like giving a woman oral sex. I wouldn't be surprised that there are "smells".
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I occassionally get a metallic taste during Kechari, but I don't think this is the same thing as what you are talking about. I would agree with Shanti that this is likely caused by a previous sinus infection being re-aggravated.
Love,
Carson[^]
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quote:
Originally posted by miranda6540
Hey Victor, Donny sent me here from E-Sangha cos I made a thread about kechari but there weren't that many people there to talk about it. I have been doing this since I was a little girl and wanted to talk to someone about where to take it once you can reach into the nasal passages and the eyebrow/flower. I do this throughout the day and find that I don't really suffer from illnesses that go around and was wondering if anyone else out there could relate to this and would share their insight?
Thanks a lot
[:p]
Hi Miranda,
sorry to take a little while to reply but I am not on all that often these days. I am happy to share any experiences on kechari and it has really been too long since I have spoken with Donny, I should give him a call. Anyway, I am here if you have questions.
Personally I rest the tongue in kechari during pranayama and meditation but not so much other times although I did alot during the early stages of fascination with it. It seems to me to be particularly good in the practice of pranayama as it seems to tie the bandhas together in a coherent direction as well as helping the gaze go internally. I rest the tongue on the septum between the nostrils and don't generally do any funny movements or inner nostril explorations at this time. Just rest it there during practice.
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For all my brothers and sisters who are trying to achieve Kechari Mudra, I have some suggestions based on my personal experience. It just 3 weeks, and I am able to insert my tongue into the naso pharynx cavity, with a slight push using fingers and hold tongue for a long tongue. I have almost overcome irritation in the naso pharynx area.
This is how I was able to achieve.
Before I started to practice, for two weeks, I practiced Talavya Kriya in all my spare time. Even while I was programming on my computer, I keep on practicing Talavya kriya. Over time one hardly notices it as it becomes a natural process.
Daily morning during shower, I practice Dohan(milking) kriya. It is nothing but stretching the tongue. I keep stretching my tongue using fingers of both my hands just like milking a cow. Stretching the tongue against the frontal teeth, gradually, weakens the frenulum and make the tongue stretch longer. Over time, Dohan will naturally break the frenulum.
Before starting Talavya Kriya and Dohan, I was not able to reach even halfway near the base of my nose. Now I am able to touch touch somewhere between the base and tip of my nose comfortably. In a few weeks of practice, I should be able to touch the tip of my nose.
During Talavya Kriya and Dohan, I kept on trying to touch the Uvula. I would even use my right hand forefinger to push my tongue to touch Uvula. Initially, I experienced a lot of irritation and gag reflex and I even threw up a few times. I usually tried this before taking food. But in a couple of days I overcame irritation and gag reflex and I became comfortable in touching the Uvula in a few days. Then with a slight push of the tongue with right forefinger, I was able to make my tongue touch the soft paleate behind the Uvula.
In the third week, when I pushed my tongue with my right forefinger, my tongue went behind the Uvula and went up into the naso pharynx cavity. I try keeping my tongue as much as possible in naso pharynx cavity and try to feel the soft skin inside the naso pharynx cavity. It is very irritating, but with deep breath, I am slowly overcoming the irritation and gag reflex.
Now In my office I keep practicing Ujjayi with Kechari mudra, which is really soothing. I can feel each breath and I can feel the cool air on my tongue with each breath.
So, practice with patience, eventually one will be able to achieve Kechari Mudra.
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Question: In general, how long after first reaching stage 2 kechari with the aid of a finger nudge, does it take to get there without the finger nudge. I'm at 2 weeks now and continuing to stretch it every day.
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Its really different for everyone. Some people need to snip, others don't. Some get it right away and others never do. I was fortunate that it came easily but that really doesn't give me the ability to say how it will be for another
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can people describe once again how kechari stage 2 affected their personal practice?
benefits etc.
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For me its been hard to specifically isolate the impact from Kechari 2 in my practice vs the cumulative effects of all of the other practices that are going on as well. BUT, I do feel like I've been going deeper into DM in the weeks and months since, and I also feel that the flow of energy is able to make its way out of my head more easily. I have had most of my energy experienced in my 3rd eye and crown, with much less in the lower chakras. Lately I've been feeling the energy more in my throat and heart, with much less pressure in the head. Jalandhara and heart breathing has helped with this as well...Lately I've been experiencing what feels like subtle electrical currents between my septum and tongue
Also, I spend some time in Kechari 2 before I get home from work and my mind clears, I feel more calm, patient and centered when I'm greeted at home by 3 screaming kids!!
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
quote:
Originally posted by miranda6540
Hey Victor, Donny sent me here from E-Sangha cos I made a thread about kechari but there weren't that many people there to talk about it. I have been doing this since I was a little girl and wanted to talk to someone about where to take it once you can reach into the nasal passages and the eyebrow/flower. I do this throughout the day and find that I don't really suffer from illnesses that go around and was wondering if anyone else out there could relate to this and would share their insight?
Thanks a lot
[:p]
Hi Miranda,
Welcome to the forum.
From what you have written you seem to be in Stage 4 kechari:
quote:
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html
Stage 4 – Entering the nasal passages from inside and moving upward beyond the top of the pharynx toward the point between the eyebrows. It is not as far for the tongue to go as it seems. Put you thumb on the hinge of your jaw and put your index finger at the tip of your tongue extended straight out. Then pivot the fixed length to your index finger up on your thumb to the point between your eyebrows. See? It is not so far for the tongue to go straight up from its root.
Stage 4 is another dramatic step. It could be years away from stage 2&3. Everyone will be different in approaching it. There is a trick to it. The nasal passages are tall and narrow and the tongue is narrow and wide, so the tongue can only go into the nasal passages by turning on its side. But which side? One way works better than the other. The tongue can naturally be turned with the top to the center by following the channel on top of the trumpet of each eustachian tube into its adjacent nasal passage. This naturally turns the top of the tongue to the center and allows it to slide up the side of the septum into the nasal passage. Turning the tongue inward to the center is the way up into the passages. Entering stage 4 is as dramatic as entering stage 2, because the tissues in the nasal passages are extremely sensitive, and connecting with them in the way described takes the nervous system to yet a higher level. Stage 4 provides extensive stimulation of the upper ends of the sushumna, ida, and pingala, and this has huge effects throughout the nervous system, especially when combined with our pranayama and its associated bandhas and mudras.
The next step is stage 5 which is covered in Yogani's book Advanced Yoga Practices - Easy Lessons for Ecstatic Living (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/books.html#ayp1) where in the tongue is moved into the throat toward the heart. This is a very advanced stage and most people may not be inclined to go that far.
Do you practice meditation and/or any other spiritual practices other than kechari? Kechari becomes a very powerful practice when combined with Spinal breathing pranayama (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/41.html) and meditation (http://www.aypsite.com/plus/13.html).
Here are some discussions on Stage 4 kechari.
Kechari Stage 4 + Pranayama (http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1288)
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1288#8974
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=2795#24494
http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1766#13877
Hope these help. [:)]
Hi everyone, thanks for the warm welcome. Thanks for this advice, I am going to delve deeply into it after writing this.
I have actually reached my tongue back on itself onto the really smooth part (completely behind the soft pallette), but I have only done this to clear my throat completely some mornings as there's nothing to latch onto in that position and it's the only place I am slightly nervous of going too far (I hadn't realised that was a further stage.
I haven't tried the meditation with khechari, and your advice is exactly the reason I have come here... I know that I can go really far, but don't feel that I am using khechari to its full potential.
What percentage of people do you think practise this (silly question probably!)
I'm off now to go and investigate!
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Hi all!
I just got to stage 2 a few days ago and thought I should share my experience and something I discovered that helped me get there. Mainly step one below. I heard others say that they could touch their uvula, but not get to stage 2, so step one (and maybe step two) could help. It helped me.
1) I tilted my head forward (looking down at the floor). That seemed to lower the soft palate, making it easier to get the tongue behind it.
2) I used my finger to stretch the soft palate. I stuck my finger to the back of the throat, pushed it up behind the soft palate, and pulled it down/forward to give it a little stretch. I haven't needed to do this after the first time and I'm not sure how much this helped, so you may consider this step optional.
3) I used my fingers to press the tongue back, and then used my tongue to push into the hollow space I felt slightly off to the side of the uvula. The first few times I tried, when I got a little past half way in the nasal pharynx, I couldn't breathe (throat jamming), but I continued to push forward and tried to remain calm, and then I could breathe again. Now, it's no longer a problem. It happened again after a few days. Part of it is from pushing my tongue back with my fingers. Even after letting go, there may still be a little blockage, almost like doing ujjayi.
4) My tongue didn't want to stay up there at first. As soon as I tried removing my fingers from my tongue, my tongue would slip out. Tilting my head back slightly seemed to help, and it helped me to not drool so much. Leaning forward made it almost impossible to stay put. A little bit of practice has helped me and now I can stay in kechari longer and without finger help or drooling.[:p]
Doing stage 2 for the first time made me feel like I had a sore throat for a day or two. After that, I might only feel a slight burning sensation when doing kechari. Also, during pranayama (my 4th time doing stage 2 during practices), I felt my tongue automatically thrust forward three times. I think it made my tongue go a little deeper. I know I was straining to keep my tongue up there at the time, so I would say the movements were not purely spontaneous, but (at least partially) a result of my efforts to keep my tongue in place.
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Hi Astragalus,
Welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your experience with us.
Wish you the best.[:)]
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Hi Victor,
I never snipped. It took about 6 months, trying gently every day, to get behind the uvula, using the little finger to push the tongue back gently. Another 4 months or so to get there without using my little finger to help.
I did these daily :
- Trying without using the little finger to get the tongue tip back as far as possible, for 15-30 seconds. This was for strength and control of the muscle, which is what the tongue is.
- Reaching gently back with the tip of the tongue, then placing the little finger at the top of the frenum and pushing back gently, to stretch it gently. 15-30 secs.
Patience.
There are some youtube videos of kechari. It helped to see it being done.
During sitting practice, it causes whatever would be happening without kechari, to be more intense. I'd give it about a 20% increase, or so. If I do it outside of sitting practice, it causes a very mild relaxation and intensification of awareness of whatever I'm doing, a very subtle effect.
It definitely was worth the effort.
Namaste.
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Hi yogis and yoginis...
I know that stage four khecari is in the upper sinus, and stage five is down the throat. But what happens when, as alwayson mentioned further up this page, the practitioner places the tongue behind the bony ridge at the back of the nasal cavity, and into the pharynx? In this position, the tip of the tongue is protruding into the pharynx, and pointing at the pituitary gland.
Many of you will have seen the photos (resonant images of the interior of the skull) where the tip of the tongue is aimed straight up towards the pituitary. Some yogis seem to think this is the correct placement for khecari.
Even without inserting above the soft palate into the sinus, the folded tongue can be thrust pretty far back, past the uvula and up into the pharynx. Some teachers ignore the sinus and septum altogether, and just describe pushing up and back into the pharynx, until the tongue presses the floor below the pituitary.
I can insert the tongue tip into this space, either from above or below the soft palate. But I cannot yet touch the top of the pharyngeal cavity, or floor of the pituitary. I have maybe 1/2" to go to do so. What can I expect to experience or accomplish if I persist in this placement?
Also, I have been taught that, if a yogi is not yet prepared by guidance and permission from a satguru, placing the tongue against the bony dome above the top of the nasal septum can actually lead to madness. Have any of you heard of something like this?
Hope someone can add some info here, thanks in advance.
aloha,
paw
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That sounds like stage 2 that you are speaking of. Madness? Good question, maybe all yoga can lead to madness (or fadness which might be worse!) I wouldn't worry too much about the madness although any control of the breath by an act of will can be potentially dangerous. But just try not to create too much tension in the head and neck while practicing and realize that kechari is not some weird psychedelic drug mudra but just a rather unusual tongue position that helps faciliate pranayama and deep meditation practice. It won't throw you into other radical states of conciousness or anything all that dramatic, though it does seem to have a particular effect on breath awareness and the flow of the inner breath which in my case really helps deepen my ability to interiorize conciousness during practice.
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
That sounds like stage 2 that you are speaking of.
Yeah, stage two, but extended all the way up I suppose.
"Madness? Good question, maybe all yoga can lead to madness (or fadness which might be worse!) I wouldn't worry too much about the madness although any control of the breath by an act of will can be potentially dangerous.
True dat...
"But just try not to create too much tension in the head and neck while practicing and realize that kechari is not some weird psychedelic drug mudra but just a rather unusual tongue position that helps faciliate pranayama and deep meditation practice. It won't throw you into other radical states of conciousness or anything all that dramatic, though it does seem to have a particular effect on breath awareness and the flow of the inner breath which in my case really helps deepen my ability to interiorize conciousness during practice.
Elegantly put, Victor. Thanks for an intuitive reply.
The septum has been so conductive that I haven't thought much of other placements. Most kechari materials I have read seem to be describing a septum connection, which I suppose could be termed a pineal connection (not sure). But Sri Shailendra's image shows a pituitary placement. I don't know much about this (to me, at any rate) important and subtle topic, so I was hoping someone here might have practiced this, or heard of others' experiences. Info might help a lot of yogis.
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Well there is bone between pineal and pituitary glands and the tongue. Once one can reach any spot in the nasopharynx area easily it seems less critical to find an exact spot but rather to rest the tonguein the upwards position which generally is with the tip touching the septum. it seems to me that fussing too much with seperate spots would just create unecessary tension
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Yes, the rearward, pituitary-based position creates more physical tension for sure, compared to the septum position. At least for myself, at this stage. It is harder for the tongue to reach more vertical and rearward, so the muscle is under greater tension. But this was also the case when I had just begun to insert the tongue into the sinus and septum position, but in time the tongue relaxed, and now there is no tension in this position. So I suppose in time, the tongue could find the more vertical, rearward position to be relaxed and comfortable too.
Any feedback from yogis who have practiced this position? Or is everyone here doing the forward position exclusively? What do you think on this topic, yogani?
Are you referring to any other type of tension Victor?
So if I read you right, you are saying that it shouldn't really make much difference exactly where the tongue tip is placed, correct?
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I would say that after practicing all positions with comfort that the tongue is most relaxed and feels right in the forward position and requires a muscular effort to keep it in the vertical position. The forward position is the position that Yogani teaches and it is the most extended position of the toungue rather than contracted
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Thank you so much for making your experiences available on this forum. I am so happy to find other people who will talk about kechari, which seems to be almost taboo among yogis in this part of the world.
I'm working on getting my tongue back and slowly making progress, and reading this thread has been both reassuring and helpful.
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http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2009/07/02/some-notes-on-khechari-mudra/
Having performed vyomayAna we translocated to the most beautiful city of ratnapura on the shores of the paschima mahodadhi and occupied a room on the samudrataTa. There, while watching the purple sunset draped by the Russian volcano, we performed our saMdhyopAsana by pouring water from the raging waters of the sAgara as arghya. We then curled up to watch a remarkable documentary by a jaTAdhArI English baron called Jim Mallinson, which was recommended to us by Sharada. In the documentary Mallinson shows a temple of the sapta-bhagini from the ancestral regions of Sharada and R, but the actual icons in there are nine in number. Since we had done some investigation of the sapta-bhaginI cults in the regions around the city of our youth, Sharada asked us about the extra two images. But we got sidetracked by something else. Sir Mallinson seems to be a pretty interesting guy as he stated in the documentary that he was both a paraglider and the student of a text which I understood to mean the khecharI-vidyA. Checking him out on the web showed that he had indeed written a work on the khecharI vidyA that appears to be out of print now. We shall record some notes on the khecharI mudra here rather than talk about Mallinson’s documentary or the sapta-bhaginI cult and its evolution.
The khecharI mudra is a yogic practice of great antiquity emerging in late vedic stratum first represented in the maitrayaNIyopaniShad the only surviving portion of the maitrAyaNIya brAhmaNa in both manuscript and a precarious oral tradition. In this text the khecharI mudra is expounded by shAkAyanya to the magadhan king bR^ihadratha along with proto-“kuNDalini” yoga (MaiU 6.20-21). The khecharI mudra here is described as the great practice by which one has the experience of brahmaivAhamasmi, a key teaching of vedAnta. The practice was incorporated into the early classical yoga of epic period. Subsequently, it was acknowledged by the tathAgata as a means of achieving the state of a muni. It is clear that in one his sutta-s known as the nAlaka sutta (verse 38), in the mahAvagga of the suttanipAta, the tathAgata expounds the khecharI mudra just as in the upaniShad as the means of achieve the state of knowledge i.e. that of the muni. Thus, it becomes clear that khecharI was already well established in the yogic circles by the time of the tathAgata. Hence, it is not surprising that it continued in its popularity with the emergence of the shaiva mantra-mArga. That it was present in the common ancestor of shaiva mantra mArga is clarified by the fact that it is described in the archaic text of the kula system the kaulaj~nAna nirNaya as well as the saiddhAntika tantra-s.
But it was in the kaula streams the khecharI evolved into a distinct practice under that name with miraculous properties. In the kaulaj~nAna nirNaya it is described as a yoga which destroys diseases. Here for the first time the meditation on a multiplicity of gustatory sensations while performing the mudra is alluded to: when the yogin perceives a sweet taste he is able to reverse graying of hair and wrinkles; when he perceives the taste of milk he becomes amartya; when he perceives ghee he becomes svarAT. In the trika kaula system we find that it is described in greater detail incorporated into a meditation on the central trika goddess parA. Here too it is a means of destroying disease and decrepitude. The 21’st chapter of the mAlinIvijayottara states that the tAntrika invokes parA devI in the middle of a 16-spoked chakra, with the disc of he moon as its hub, in the midst of the void of the upper oro-nasal cavity – this is what is precisely meant by the term khaga in MVUT:
ShoDashAre khage chakre chandra-kalpita-karNike |
svarUpeNa parAM tatra sravanIm amR^itaM smaret || MVUT 21.2
Thus we see that the term khecharI comes from the fact the tongue moves to the kha the space of the upper oro-nasal cavity. The tantra goes on indicate that in the initial practice of the mudra the sAdhaka experiences a salty or iron taste (That this is default state can be easily verified by even merely moving the tongue backward in a regular person when having a clean mouth). By repeated practice the mudra he perceives a sweet taste and drinks that. Once he achieves the sweet taste he can perceive the tasting of all kinds of fluids he meditates upon, like blood, liquor, animal fat, ghee and milk.
In the subsequent yogic literature the khecharI mudra is even described as a means of holding of retas. It is said that a yogin who practices it does not have an outflow of shukra even when he is in coitus with a beautiful woman:
tenaiShA khecharI nAma mudrA siddha-namaskR^itA |
khecharyA mudrayA yasya vivaraM lambikordhvataH ||
binduH kSharati no yasya kAminyAli~Ngitasya cha |
yAvad binduH sthito dehe tAvan mR^ityu-bhayaM kutaH || dhyAnabindu 83-84
Further, from the shaiva stream, the khecharI also appears to have been transferred to the yoga of the pA~ncharAtra vaiShNava system (See below).
The classical standalone khecharI system came into its own relatively late, resting on the foundations of the shrIkula and the pashchimAmnAya tantra-s. The khecharIvidyA states that shiva first taught this system in various tantras such as the mahAkAla saMhitA (pashchimAmnAya), the glorious yoginIjAlashambara (shrIkula) and vishuddheshvara tantra-s. Then shiva adds that though these tantra-s cover the matter in different levels of details, it is the khecharIvidyA text which would provide a devoted description of the procedure. The holy nityAShoDashikArNava of the shrIkula again states that amongst the preceding tantra-s before the “arNava-ization” in the shrIkula stream were the YJS and ViSh. Thus, the khecharIvidyA in its classical form is an offshoot of the procedure proclaimed in the foundational kaula texts. It is here that the important mantra of the melaka is taught, which is supposed to be combined with the actual yogic practice of khecharI:
hrIM bhaM saM ShaM [paM] phaM saM kShaM ||
As per the khecharIvidyA the practice of the mantra is a must for attaining khecharI siddhI – this point is repeatedly mentioned and the mantroddhAra is given before the yogic procedures. The mantra itself of the form given above was current amongst my coethnics who practiced it in Thanjavur. However, I have seen a variant form which replaces the ShaM with a paM. This might also correspond to a variant uddhara, which I have seen, but was not able to completely comprehend due to the lack of clarity in the varga being indicated.
Then the khecharIvidyA text goes on to expound the practice of the khecharI mudra itself. Here we encounter the version that involves cutting of the frenulum linguae, something not found in the earlier texts. The text states that after having cleaned the palate for week by rubbing the yogin incises frenulum by a hair diameter using a sharp scalpel shaped like snuhI leaf. He then rubs the area with a mixture of rock salt and the pathyA plant. He repeats the procedure after 7 days and it is said that in 6 months he cuts of the frenulum. After that he wraps his tongue’s tip with a cloth and stretches it. After carrying out this exercise for 6 years he would have stretched his tongue long enough for the mudra. The text warns that he should do it very gradually and if he rushes with it he destroys his organ. Then he practices the entry of tongue behind the soft palate into the oro-nasal cavity of the pharynx. With 3 years of practice he is able to press the wall of the cavity well above the anterior arch of the atlas vertebra and reach the base of sphenoidal sinus. The yogin then may practice manthana. If he has siddhi of the khecharI mantra then he does not need churning, but if he can combine both then it is even better. In this he inserts a metal wire with a capsule at the end into to the nasal cavity with a thread and performing hR^idya prANAyAma he churns the capsule gently while focusing on the center of his eyebrows. He does this once a month. Then keeps pressing with his tongue the base of the sphenoidal sinus and licking the surface with his tongue in the act called the drinking of amR^ita. He focuses on the hypophysis and apparently stimulates it with the action of his tongue. When he tastes the amR^ita he gradually attains the siddhi-s of khecharI over several years of practice. These are described in hyperbolic terms: freedom from decrepitude, life stretched to 1000s of years, mastery of shAstra-s, knowledge of buried treasures and underground caves, dUradR^iShTi and dUrashravaNa, strength of 10000 elephants, success in chemistry and ability to repel abhichAra prayoga-s.
The vaiShNava version of khecharI that I have encountered is from the yoga section of the shANDilya saMhitA. In this text the khaM in the upper pharyngeal cavity is described as the seat of viShNu. The yogin meditates on it and performs the khecharI mudra largely as described in the khecharI vidyA text. In this consideration of shANDilya the khecharI mudra contains a mention of the cutting of the frenulum linguae as in the more mature shaiva texts. It also uses yoga terminology relating to the chakra-s and the meditation of viShNu in the sushumNa typical of the yoga of the shaiva tantra-s. We see an evolution of the khecharI and the associated yoga system within the shaiva tantra-s, but I have not encountered a parallel evolution in the pA~ncharAtra texts. So it seems that khecharI was transferred to the vaiShNava system relatively late from the shaiva system. However, I must stress that more careful examination of earlier vaiShNava saMhitA-s might change this picture.
To the outsider the hyperbole surrounding the khecharI mudra appears to give the impression of the whole thing being bogus. Some others say it has nothing to do with regular anatomy, but some kind of perceived or “yogic” anatomy. Hence they argue that its effect should not be considered in terms of regular anatomy. While I have nothing to say of the great siddhi-s mentioned in connection with the mudra, I am aware of yogin-s both vaiShNava and smArta (practicing shrIkulA tantra-s) who have practiced it, albeit without cutting their frenulum linguae. It is of central importance for their practice along with the triple bandha and is the basis for entering the state of chidAnanda or some say samAdhI. While I cannot speak for myself in this case, the reliable experience of the yogin-s suggests that the mudra has a very definitive physiological effect. These effects suggest that, though it might seem rather unbelievable, the khecharI mudra might stimulate parts of the brain that are adjacent to where the action takes place. This I suspect might account for the experiential aspects of their practice. More controversially it is conceivable that somehow the practice stimulates the hypophysis to release lutenizing hormone. I have not tested this hypothesis in anyway, but one cannot rule it out. In conclusion I believe that the khecharI is a real discovery of the Indo-Aryans that has been preserved as a central element of the tradition of yoga, while being refined through the ages. I must add that some practitioners of it do display some baffling capabilities (which insiders are well aware of) although none of this tested in any controlled way.
~ by mAnasa-taraMgiNI on July 2, 2009.
Posted in Heathen thought, History
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that were some quotations
i´m new to the forum, greetings for all
i am male hetero in my fifties
my language is spanish
i am in level three since a week or so
no clipinng
anuloma viloma from inside
plenty space to go to four but i find the chanel obstructed
who is in level four?
love to all
mastro
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Anatomical Tutorial During Trans-Nasal Endoscopy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjRsa77u6OU
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Trans-Nasal Endoscopy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPzSuh7BPKM
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not for every one!!!!!
Deviated Nasal Septum Repair: Endoscopic Septoplasty in HD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP01dYof8RU
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Understand why your nose is blocked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPPCqnCCxyQ
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http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/...i-mudra.html
Re: KHECHARI MUDRA IS YONI MUDRA - 11-17-2004, 12:44 AM
93
--- In Shakti_Sadhana (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, sankara menon
wrote:
> i have not heard of this. Can you quote the source?
>
> jessica_malone1000
wrote:
> Yoni mudra is closing ears, nose, mouth, eyes by withdrawing it from
the external world and attending to the Yoni. The Eyes see the Yoni,
the nose smells the Yoni, the mouth tastes the yoni and the ears hear
> the moans of the woman.
Well, truely speaking there is a base for this (although i didn't
understand exactly what Jessica meant by saying what she said LOL).
As i remember there is a verse in Yoni-tantra describing this
practice, although is doesn't call it "yoni" or "khechari" mudra.
However i assume the original practice of khechari was sexual; only
later it was "internalised" in Gorakshanatha's tradition.
Moans of the woman in the time of maithuna are described as anahata-
nada by Maheshvarananda and Abhinavagupta and that nada is to be
meditated upon. Also we can recall two verses from Vijnanabhairava in
this connection.
I really think that this interpretation of Yoni-mudra is original one,
while yogic one is the later invention upon it.
If we compare names "Yoni-mudra", "Shanmukhi" and also "Khechari"
(which is not the same but related), we may see this. "Shanmukhi" is
associated not only with Shanmukha/Skanda but also with "sixth mouth"
[of Shiva] which is yogini-mukha or pichu-vaktra. And this sixth mouth
is Yoni!
The "flight", khechara, was originally connected with vamacharic
practices, melanas of siddhas and yoginis.
So...
A.
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quote:
Originally posted by mastro
i´m new to the forum, greetings for all
anuloma viloma from inside
plenty space to go to four but i find the chanel obstructed
Welcome Mastro. [:)]
Nice to have you with us.
Maybe this topic will help:
Stage 3 K, blocking off nostrils (http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=1921)
And this from Yogani's lesson may help
http://www.aypsite.com/plus/108.html
Stage 4 is another dramatic step. It could be years away from stage 2&3. Everyone will be different in approaching it. There is a trick to it. The nasal passages are tall and narrow and the tongue is narrow and wide, so the tongue can only go into the nasal passages by turning on its side. But which side? One way works better than the other. The tongue can naturally be turned with the top to the center by following the channel on top of the trumpet of each eustachian tube into its adjacent nasal passage. This naturally turns the top of the tongue to the center and allows it to slide up the side of the septum into the nasal passage. Turning the tongue inward to the center is the way up into the passages. Entering stage 4 is as dramatic as entering stage 2, because the tissues in the nasal passages are extremely sensitive, and connecting with them in the way described takes the nervous system to yet a higher level. Stage 4 provides extensive stimulation of the upper ends of the sushumna, ida, and pingala, and this has huge effects throughout the nervous system, especially when combined with our pranayama and its associated bandhas and mudras.
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Hi Shanti
Thanks for the warm welcome
I have a clearer picture because the endoscopic youtube videos I´ve posted in this tread
Definitly I have an abnormal condition and I will go to an otorrinolaringologyst to see whats going on
Mastro
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Kechari Mantra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0cIiRUVWsY
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Hi there,
so it happened yesterday and the day before. During the last, say, 6 months I've been occasionally trying to get into kechari 2 with the help of a finger. I've done this outside practices in the bathroom, just out of curiosity. After a few attempts I discovered that it is actually possible to get behind the uvula and stay for a few seconds up there. Well and the day before yesterday I tried to help a little with my finger, since my tongue seemed to go back on its own during samyama, and I stayed in kechari 2 for the rest of the sit. The usual urge to swallow and release the mudra did not occur this time. Yesterday morning I tried it again and it worked well. In the afternoon then, just when I was crossing a street somewhere in the city, I suddenly entered a nice kechari stage 2 with my hands in my pockets[:D] It took just a little training in the evening then to master it and now I need like one second to reach the septum with the tip of my tongue. Today I was able to stay in kechari during the whole sit, which means currently 35 minutes without discomfort. No snipping needed so far.
So thanks for listening, I'm quite excited about this... [:I]
Three questions, if you don't mind:
1) Is there any recommended general strategy of introducing kechari 2 gradually? Like starting only during SBP, then adding DM etc. Or is it reasonable to start right off with the whole sit in kechari?
2) It seems to me that the tongue is pushing relatively hardly into the tissue near the edge of the pharynx and is quite stretching it. Is this how it is supposed to be?
3) My sadhana goes currently like this: KAPALABHATI - MULABANDHA/SAMBHAVI - SBP - DM - SAMYAMA. I practice AYP for 1 year. I tried siddhasana a couple months ago, but had to stop it because of constant overload. So, since there are a couple more practices in the lessons referenced before kechari 2, which I don't do yet, I just wanted to make sure if it might be a reasonable time to start kechari 2 anyway, or should I perhaps master at least siddhasana before?
All the best,
mimirom in kechari[:p]
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quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
Three questions, if you don't mind:
1) Is there any recommended general strategy of introducing kechari 2 gradually? Like starting only during SBP, then adding DM etc. Or is it reasonable to start right off with the whole sit in kechari?
2) It seems to me that the tongue is pushing relatively hardly into the tissue near the edge of the pharynx and is quite stretching it. Is this how it is supposed to be?
3) My sadhana goes currently like this: KAPALABHATI - MULABANDHA/SAMBHAVI - SBP - DM - SAMYAMA. I practice AYP for 1 year. I tried siddhasana a couple months ago, but had to stop it because of constant overload. So, since there are a couple more practices in the lessons referenced before kechari 2, which I don't do yet, I just wanted to make sure if it might be a reasonable time to start kechari 2 anyway, or should I perhaps master at least siddhasana before?
All the best,
mimirom in kechari[:p]
Wonderful Mimirom.[:)]
1) Well Kechari is a powerful practice, and may have delayed overloads. So don't overdo it. You have it right, in the beginning just stay in kechari during spinal breathing then when you feel stable, you can add it to meditation. Self pacing is our friend. [:)]
2)Yes, this is normal. If this is causing you pain or discomfort you can look at this topic for some ways to ease the pain:
tender pharynx -- surprising cure (http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=592)
3) Good question. I know we can leap-frog to samyama, but never really thought about Kecahri. If you can go into stage 2 kechari, I think you can just keep going. Yogani will correct me if I am wrong.[:)]
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Thank you, Shanti.[:)]
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sounds like you are doing just fine. One thing that I notice with learning kechari is that there can be quite a bit of tension at the base of the skull/throat that can accumulate due to the holding of the stretch of kechari so maybe want to be aware of it and self pace if that comes up. It will pass eventually as you are able to relax into it but can take some time to smooth out. keep up the good practices!
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Hi Shanti and Victor and thanks for your comment, Victor.
I just came out of my evening practices, and have some news and questions. This entering kechari2 I'm experiencing these days was preceded by several weeks long process of throat and nasal cavities cleaning. That means expectoration, rhinitis-like symptoms, inflammation-like symptoms (this was connected with introducing amaroli (http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=409&whichpage=4#57359), an intense energetic/emotional release in throat/mouth during deep experiential therapy, and lots of mouth/throat/jaw stretching during DM and samyama. This culminated in my kechari experience (the sick sympoms in my throat and nose are gone finally.)
I see this as a rather nice way to start with kechari and I have just one dilemma now: I intend to honor the self-pacing principles and would like to introduce kechari slowly and gradually, just as a powerful mudra should be introduced. So I started with only SBP in kechari, and the rest of the sit without it. What happened is that new energy is being unleashed in the body, and this manifests through intense flexing, stretching, clenching and opening of my jaw and mouth, also flexing the neck etc. It makes my mouth to go wide open basically and the tongue keeps rolling back and wants to go up. Today it actually entered the pharynx on it's own. So I tried to stay in kechari alternately also during DM and samyama, and the result is that when the tongue is up, all the mess around flexing and opening ceases and the practice gets smoother and quieter and the energy get's apparently well channeled.
So what would you do? Stay with only SBP in kechari, or alternate spontaneously during DM and samyama? Some ideas?
Thanks Victor for your advice regarding tension due to stretching the tongue, this doesn't seem to be a problem so far. Actually I find it rather cozy up there right from the beginning.[;)]
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Hi,
I'd be grateful for any comments. It's still the same here: energy gets stuck in my jaw during dm and samyama. As soon as I enter kechari it immediately gets nice and smooth and meditation deepens.
I'm not sure how to navigate this situation safely.
Thanks
-
quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
Hi,
I'd be grateful for any comments. It's still the same here: energy gets stuck in my jaw during dm and samyama. As soon as I enter kechari it immediately gets nice and smooth and meditation deepens.
I'm not sure how to navigate this situation safely.
Thanks
Hi Mimirom:
Not sure when the energy blockage started in your jaw -- before or after starting kechari. It will be good to be careful about not over-stimulating it with a practice that may be related to its cause.
Have you been self-pacing in practices and grounding in activity in attempts to reduce the discomfort? Blockages in the throat and jaw can be helped with chin pump or chin pump light. Jim & K has a whole topic on front channel blockages (http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=3296), but I'm not sure you are in that category severity-wise at this point.
Remember that trying to "break through" uncomfortable blockages with more practice almost never works. Better to lighten up...
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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Hi Yogani and thank you so much for your answer.
I've been experiencing physical activity in my neck and jaw pretty often durind DM and especially during samyama, and it is something I'm used to. This isn't anything new in my practices and I don't even consider it "discomfort" or something to be worried with.
The recent introduction of kechari during SBP definitely stimulates some new energy, and this causes again activity in my throat/jaw, as was often the case in the past anyway.
What is interesting and new for me now is that when I am in kechari, all the mess in my jaw stops immediately, and I don't need to flex and strech and open my mouth even during the rather huge energy outpourings during samyama.
As soon as I release kechari, all the physical movements are back. It's really like a switch...
So, I'm not actually concerned with overload at this point. I've been through energetically much wilder periods, for instance when trying siddhasana. Rather I'm asking myself if I should better keep testing kechari only during SBP and tolerate patiently all the jaw and body activity during DM and samyama, or to stay in kechari the entire sit, because it feels right and seems to dissolve all the physical symptoms instantly.
I tried to describe my whole kechari experience also in one of the above posts (http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=359&whichpage=12#59422). Maybe it helps a little to clarify things.
Roman
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Hi Mimirom:
It is suggested to feel your way along, keeping in mind that while kechari may be giving relief in one area, it is also causing purification and opening in other areas, perhaps not visible at the moment. There can be delayed effects, so it's suggested to proceed with caution (small steps) when increasing practice times. Your call, of course.
Carry on! [:)]
The guru is in you.
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Thanks Yogani,
I feel I know what to do.[8D]
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I asked my teacher if I should practice khecari mudra. He asked me how old I was and then said that I should wait. Wonder what is about? Anyway, I will wait.
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are you still a teen?
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Hello,
This is my first post on this forum, so hi all :) I learned about AYP around a month ago after being recommended by a friend, and have been practicing deep meditation twice a day for 2-3 weeks. A few days ago I noticed a real breakthrough, and my meditation seemed to become, for want of a better word, much deeper. Coupled with this, I'm now experiencing involuntary movements of my tongue towards the roof of my mouth whenever I meditate. Is this an indication that my body wants to enter kechari mudra? Everything I've read about AYP has told me that kechari is an advanced practice and should only be attempted in time. Any guidance would be appreciated.
Thank you :)
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No, I am 45.
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Hi Wafu, and welcome to the forum. [:)]
If you want to play safe, then it is best to follow the lessons through from the start, and add practices in the order that they are described, following the time-line that is described in the lessons (lesson 35). This way you will be a able to build up a safe and stable practice and know how to regulate your practice if you have any difficulties.
If you do decide to add kechari mudra before it comes up as you proceed through the main lessons (lesson 108), then I would at least add spinal breathing pranayama first and become well established in that before adding kechari. Well established would mean a few weeks at a minimum.
I think that normally in the AYP system, spinal breathing, mulabandha, sambhavi, siddhasana and yoni mudra kumbhaka would all be added before kechari mudra.
Kechari is one of the most powerful advanced spiritual practices there is, so self-pace carefully.
All the best,
Christi
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You are 45 but not old enough for kechari? That's pretty funny. If your teacher knows you well and thinks that perhaps you are not ready for some reason then I don't want to argue but age 45 is pretty much old enough for anything (except perhaps retirement)
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Hi Christi,
Thank you for your guidance and your welcome, it's very much appreciated. It's great to know that there's a friendly community that I can turn to for advice.
I've taken what you have said on board, I'm sure you're right in saying that I should build up a routine to include other less advanced practices over time in preparation. The movement I experience in my tongue does intrigue me, perhaps it's just a manifestation of the cleaning process brought about by meditation and not a signal that my tongue wants to travel further at this point. I'm feeling more comfortable with the sensation these days, and I plan to let it become completely natural before I begin spinal breathing. The most important thing, as you've said and as I've read, is pacing.
Thanks again, and keep well,
Alex
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor
You are 45 but not old enough for kechari? That's pretty funny. If your teacher knows you well and thinks that perhaps you are not ready for some reason then I don't want to argue but age 45 is pretty much old enough for anything (except perhaps retirement)
Well, his teacher gave him instructions 30-40 years ago about things that he should do some years ago when he was 75.
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Lavazza, you are confusing me
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OK. Apparently my teacher sometimes gives advice that is not obvious at all. One long time student told me that our teacher told him twenty years ago that he should get married before going into any deeper yoga practice. According to him this was excellent advice.
My teacher is extremely secretive about what his teacher told him to do during the one year retreat he was told to do at the age of 75.
Eventually I will find out what his advice concerning khecari mudra was all about. I am in no hurry.
This summer I got some strange instructions on how I should practice Kaphalabati and Bhastrika. I should partially close my glottis. Which is really difficult. But sometime I will get it.
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My experience with kechari mudra (first post).
I have been meditating for thirty years. Though my school makes reference to kechari and emphasizes its importance, it offers no practical instruction. From classic works like the _Hath Yoga Pradipika_ I was aware of frenum cutting, milking, etc. And though tempted from time to time to try these things, an inner resistance—not squeamishness; I’m not a squeamish person—always kept me from committing to them. Finding out, rather late in the game, that Shyama Charan Lahiri was against cutting validated my intuition in this regard.
Within the last year—talk about late in the game—I was introduced to talabya kriya as a preliminary exercise for achieving kechari. (Ennio Nimis’s site has an accurate description of the technique.) And though this may sound like one of those I-lost-thirty-pounds-in-thirty-days ads, I started doing fifty talabya a day—it takes only a few minutes—and within four months kechari came naturally. Since then I have been able to sit for long periods in meditation (and other environments) with my tongue securely, comfortably in the upper portion of the nasal pharynx, contacting even the ‘second uvula’ in the nasal cavity.
Points:
Did my history of meditation prior to discovering talabya contribute in any way to my rapid success?
I don’t know.
Are some folks, due to certain physical traits, able to achieve kechari more easily than others?
I don’t know. I do know that when my tongue is stretched externally, I still cannot touch even the tip of my nose, let alone the space between my eyebrows. And yet, as I say, my tongue rests comfortably and indefinitely in the upper reaches of the pharynx whenever I turn it back and insert it there. I suspect the grandiose claims in the _Pradipika_ and other traditional works re long tongues may be the same sort of misdirection, for the idly curious, that causes these texts to claim this or that asana cures everything from hemorrhoids to halitosis.
Does achieving kechari mudra open the door to a whole new level of sadhana?
Yes.
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quote:
Originally posted by Perrin
I was introduced to talabya kriya as a preliminary exercise for achieving kechari. (Ennio Nimis’s site has an accurate description of the technique.)
Hi Perrin!
Welcome to AYP forum.
I was unable to find Ennio Nimis’s description. I did, however, find this description of talabya kria: http://www.aypsite.com/plus-forum/index.php?topic=415
Is that what you did?
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Hi bewell. 'Scraping the tongue on the lower teeth.' Eeek indeed.
No, what I was introduced to, which is identical to what Nimis describes, only involves stretching the frenum & tongue in a completely natural way (not even using the fingers). I felt a small amount of irritation under the tongue the 1st few days, but then no discomfort at all. Rather than detailing it myself, I'll direct you to Nimis. You may not have been able to find the info before because it's embedded in a PDF.
Go to
http://www.kriyayogainfo.net/Eng_Downloads1.html
and download the PDF titled 'Second Part.' (I would strongly encourage you to read all 3 parts--it's an invaluable document--but 'Second' has most of the techniques.) Look at pages 93-4 & 110-113.
Best, Perrin
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Hi all! This is my first time here, and I have to say thanks to this board as well as the AYP Kechari website for teaching me how to do it - I was surprised I could get to stage two quite quickly after practising and playing around in stage 1 for a week. When I first heard about kechari (somehow stumbled upon it while looking for further meditation techniques and mudras), it just sounded like a really kinky form of sex. You know, the tongue, penetrating the soft palate...
And yeah, I would get a hard on just reading and imaging what it would be like (he he spiritual porn anyone?)
Despite my initial thoughts about it, I gave it a try, I mean, curiosity got the better of me and on the day I got into stage 2... It was like I had been penetrated in my head, instead of my ass. Same sort of feeling, just with more emotional intensity and courses round your body, giving you more energy to do anything.
It was not a bad thing at all - definitely better than sex, that's for sure! And it doesn't seem to come with any crashdowns - all the experiences I had in meditation somehow became more intensified and easier to fall into while I was in Kechari.
Oh yeah, I was off with the birdies for a few days before my body got used to it! I'm well grounded right now, so won't be off with the birdies for a while! Kechari Mudra also has had a great energy amplifying effect when I need it, which is definitely a good thing. Although too much of it can make one feel like they're not of this world at all!
It also has made my body do funny things that I wouldn't have done - such as not wanting to eat meat or even slightly processed food. It also has made me want to retreat from people and meditate more than usual, especially when I've been at uni all day. However, it has made meditation a million times easier to do, and it also has encouraged the mind from thinking about any lower desires at all esp in the fields of sex - definitely a good thing in more ways than one!
At the mo, I'm kinda at stage 3, getting closer and closer to the spiritual meadow at the top of the nasal passages.
A couple times, I've had bits of food get lodged in the passages, and I have to say, being able to clear it out easily using kechari mudra is pretty damn handy!
Should I keep going or slow down if it gets all a bit too much? I mean, I feel as though I have had experienced all this before yet my current body may not be ready for this.
And yes, after reading most of your experiences with kechari mudra, I've had mind blowing experiences too, long before I even considered doing meditation seriously.
One of the things I used to do all the time when I was a kid was put my hand to my eyes and lose myself in all the rainbow colors and patterns that would appear out of my vision, all which would fade away into a weirdly persistent jewel eye thing floating in front of my vision that would fluctuate between green, blue, yellow and white... I didn't realise that I had been doing both Sambhavi and Yoni mudra all that time!
I even used to scare my friends at school by holding and subsequently hiding my tongue to the roof of the mouth and show them just the frenem! It freaked them out! That was fun to do and I enjoyed trying to hold my jaw down as much as my tongue would allow. That turned out to be Manduki Mudra.
I even went through various stages of head, eye, ear and nose twitching. It was weirdly pleasurable and somewhat comforting, as though I was making music in my head, despite the fact it would drive others crazy with thoughts that I was insane! So I stopped doing them. I guess I must have been activating both Ajna and Vishuddha at the same time by doing those repetitive movements.
I had a weird experience not too long ago - when I was lying in bed, ready to drop off any moment, I thought I'd open up Vishuddha and stay in the limbo mode (theta state) to better experience deep sleep. I played around in that state and decided to expand the bubble around Vishuddha. I felt it start to burst and boy, I was not expecting this feeling of freedom at all. As soon as it burst, the cosmic energy around came rushing into the throat and a myriad of hummings would be heard all round. I felt sort of pleasantly free, feeling a sort of inner vibration coming from the throat region as well as from beyond.
What I was totally not prepared for next was after a while of listening/feeling to the vibrations around, an inner sort of bubble expanded from the throat region into the tip of my tongue, pushing out into the vibrational field beyond. At the same time my head swelled to indescribeable proportions like a balloon and I would feel a weird but distinct vibration within that often happens before one drops off into deep sleep, this time I was fully conscious and half awake.
The energy went from the tongue to the forehead and I felt like I had been dropped into a beautiful unending sky within. It was as though I had found the center of all vibrations and thoughts. Not one thought could manifest itself at all - somehow, I recognised it as the true place that the soul resides in. I was one with it, yet I had no identity.
There also was no such thing as time or space inside the inner sky. Thoughts were like the clouds below the boundless sky - I had absolutely no desire to attach to them at all. It was inner freedom, to say in the least. It was just a state of pure nothingness, yet full of vibration and formlessness. No words can nor can ever describe such a weird and out-of-this-world conscious -nonconsciousness.
It was like as though you were a bird soaring into the infinite sky, yet there was no sky to soar into, nor no sun, cloud nor land to focus on. The sun, sky, cloud and land are all one and the same and they all come back to the source within. And you are that bird, just observing it all happen... and just being there.
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albechan
Italy
26 Posts
Posted - May 21 2018 : 08:53:35 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Dear All,
I would like to request your kind advice with regards to kechari mudra as I read with deep interest what you wrote.
I already wrote another similar post, but I realized it was on the wrong section.
Although I just started to practice yoga, I became strongly interested in the discipline because of my innate ability to perform kechari mudra. I am 39 and I've been playing with my toungue behind the uvula since I was a child. I can literally spend hours with my toungue resting on "the secret spot" Yogani mention at the base of the nasal sept and can reach kechari 4 with great ease thanks to the unusual anatomy of my toungue (very long, very thin when stretched and with an extremely malleable frenulum). Perhaps, I can even do kechari 5 as I can fold back my toungue enough to block any air intake through my throat. As I just discovered the importance behind this practice, I've been doing it with much more attention and interest.
I am lucky enough to have a job and a life style which allows me to spend long hours in silence (I do meditation pretty regularly as well) so that I can go on with my daily routines while keeping my toungue resting on the secret spot and focus on breathing. Still I don't really feel the ecstatic conductivity you talk about. I wanted to understand if you think it's ok to keep practicing kechari mudra for such a long time (I can last on stage 2 easily 7-8 hours per day as that position feels more comfortable to me than keeping my toungue in a ?normal? resting position). On a side note, I can say that I have never experienced any strain or discomfort from this.
Thank you so much for your time.
Love
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1492 Posts
Posted - May 22 2018 : 02:46:24 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hello albechan
Welcome to the AYP forum.
Reading your recent post, I think the question arising is this:
Do you wish to develop ecstatic conductivity?
If the answer is yes, then your best bet is spinal breathing pranayama (described in the free lessons on this website, starting at Lesson 41 (https://www.aypsite.com/41.html))
You are very advanced with the kechari technique, but practices that work on just one segment of the sushumna may not awaken ecstatic conductivity, unless a more global cleansing of the main energy channel is underway. Spinal breathing achieves that global cleansing, as it sweeps sushumna nadi from the root to the brow. So wherever the blocks are along the way, it will find them and dissolve them.
If you decide to go down this path, there is one more question you need to answer: do you combine your existing meditation practice (did you say zen?) with the energetic practices of AYP, or give AYP a go, starting with the AYP meditation technique (Lesson 13)? The bottom line is that meditation is the fundamental practice; any energy practices must build on that.
Only you can answer this question, but if you wish to discuss pros and cons, start another topic on the forum.
All the best on your path
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albechan
Italy
26 Posts
Posted - May 22 2018 : 10:18:01 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by BlueRaincoat
Hello albechan
Welcome to the AYP forum.
Reading your recent post, I think the question arising is this:
Do you wish to develop ecstatic conductivity?
If the answer is yes, then your best bet is spinal breathing pranayama (described in the free lessons on this website, starting at Lesson 41 (https://www.aypsite.com/41.html))
You are very advanced with the kechari technique, but practices that work on just one segment of the sushumna may not awaken ecstatic conductivity, unless a more global cleansing of the main energy channel is underway. Spinal breathing achieves that global cleansing, as it sweeps sushumna nadi from the root to the brow. So wherever the blocks are along the way, it will find them and dissolve them.
If you decide to go down this path, there is one more question you need to answer: do you combine your existing meditation practice (did you say zen?) with the energetic practices of AYP, or give AYP a go, starting with the AYP meditation technique (Lesson 13)? The bottom line is that meditation is the fundamental practice; any energy practices must build on that.
Only you can answer this question, but if you wish to discuss pros and cons, start another topic on the forum.
All the best on your path
Hi BlueRaincoat,
Thank you so much for your reply.
To answer your questions, I'd say that what I want the most is to achieve Unity. Said that,to enjoy this wonderful ecstatic conductivity along the path is certainly a plus that I'm determined to pursue.
With regards to the other point, I have no problem at all to set zen aside for a while to give AYP a go and that's what I've actually just sarted to do, beginning from the meditation technique with the I AM mantra.
I tend to be quite disciplined with the practices in general so I'm sure that some results shouldn't take too long to manifest.
Deep gratitude for your kind suggestion.
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BlueRaincoat
United Kingdom
1492 Posts
Posted - May 23 2018 : 03:53:23 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
HI albechan
quote:
Originally posted by albechan
I'd say that what I want the most is to achieve Unity. Said that,to enjoy this wonderful ecstatic conductivity along the path is certainly a plus that I'm determined to pursue.
Ecstatic conductivity lies along the way towards unity and it is a precondition to it. Its rise is more dramatic in some people than in others (which may explain why some traditions emphasises it more than others?).
I've never practised Buddhism as such, but it seems to me that piti is ecstatic conductivity. Then there is sukha, which I guess is the equivalent of AYP's "ecstatic bliss". Different words, the same reality.
If you get to read further through the AYP lessons, you will find some that describe the evolution towards unity: Lessons 35, 85, 274 and quite a few others.
Enjoy your I AM meditation. If you have any questions, you can always ask them in the forum.
Edited by - BlueRaincoat on May 23 2018 04:02:04 AM
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Shamith
India
5 Posts
Posted - Oct 21 2018 : 11:11:44 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Respected, can you tell me. How did you enter into kechari 4 and up. What was the angle ? I
quote:
Originally posted by albechan
Dear All,
I would like to request your kind advice with regards to kechari mudra as I read with deep interest what you wrote.
I already wrote another similar post, but I realized it was on the wrong section.
Although I just started to practice yoga, I became strongly interested in the discipline because of my innate ability to perform kechari mudra. I am 39 and I've been playing with my toungue behind the uvula since I was a child. I can literally spend hours with my toungue resting on "the secret spot" Yogani mention at the base of the nasal sept and can reach kechari 4 with great ease thanks to the unusual anatomy of my toungue (very long, very thin when stretched and with an extremely malleable frenulum). Perhaps, I can even do kechari 5 as I can fold back my toungue enough to block any air intake through my throat. As I just discovered the importance behind this practice, I've been doing it with much more attention and interest.
I am lucky enough to have a job and a life style which allows me to spend long hours in silence (I do meditation pretty regularly as well) so that I can go on with my daily routines while keeping my toungue resting on the secret spot and focus on breathing. Still I don't really feel the ecstatic conductivity you talk about. I wanted to understand if you think it's ok to keep practicing kechari mudra for such a long time (I can last on stage 2 easily 7-8 hours per day as that position feels more comfortable to me than keeping my toungue in a ?normal? resting position). On a side note, I can say that I have never experienced any strain or discomfort from this.
Thank you so much for your time.
Love
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Shamith
India
5 Posts
Posted - Oct 21 2018 : 11:17:48 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
People who have finished Kechari Stage 4. Requesting help with the request.
Which is the right angle to insert the tongue and upward ? Up beneath the secret spot. It seems the passage is closed, not upward. Thanking you.
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Shamith
India
5 Posts
Posted - Oct 22 2018 : 01:13:54 AM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Can one tell me which side is the entry level to go up. Is it the side where secret spot is or opposite side. Thanking you
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Leonardo Neiva
Brazil
1 Posts
Posted - Mar 27 2019 : 12:10:24 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Thank you this post has helped me a lot to connect in essence
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Jesus2.0
Algeria
2 Posts
Posted - Aug 21 2019 : 1:09:17 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
Hi guys and galls.
I have read the lesson on kechari mudra and found it to be quite accurate, although I do not believe any yoga has to be difficult or complicated or that anyone should intentionally cut/snip their frenulum, this is poor advice in my humble opinion.
Any questions will be answered with love,
Namaste x
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Jesus2.0
Algeria
2 Posts
Posted - Aug 21 2019 : 2:40:33 PM Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Reply with Quote View user's IP address Get a Link to this Reply Delete Reply
I honestly believe kechari mudra to be one of the most important ?physical keys? to acension! Not to be taken lightly or entered into until you are ready to let go of everything you?ve ever known and experience reality x